Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

[Bitek]

Anyone want to take a crack as to why AR - 15s are the preferred weapon of choice for mass murderers?

Along with what @[DHT] said, it's a lot of copycat kids who know fuck all about guns, and can't buy pistols generally.

It's not a magic super weapon. It's very capable and deadly in the wrong hands, but so are others.

In my experience, ARs and rifles are better suited for longer range target shooting, and can be awkward at the close, indoor distances these things happen at. Pistols are more purpose built.

Mind you, I don't think under 21 should have these powerful semis, just like they shouldn't have pistols, but the singular focus on ARs is misplaced as root cause.

 

[Artorias]

Interesting, the insane part to me is having people that want to murder each other.

Well for this discussion we are talking about teenagers wanting to murder their own class mates?

There is something absolutely wrong with the education system that is letting everyone down, from the victims, to those that feel the need to resort to violence.

In literally any other country the gun ownership and restriction discussion would have been settled decades ago, it's seems the US cant even get the first step right. How is everyone going to tackle the social issue when no-one can even resolve simple gun legislation?

 

[soulcougher73]

Interesting, the insane part to me is having people that want to murder each other.

Your deflection game is getting tiresome. If you want to create a thread discussing mental health you can, otherwise for the sake of this thread about guns, please....

(unintentional pun intended)

 

[thilanliyan]

Mind you, I don't think under 21 should have these powerful semis, just like they shouldn't have pistols, but the singular focus on ARs is misplaced as root cause.

Singular focus is on ARs because it's a more capable mass killing machine than a pistol...not that complicated.

It's not like the GOP/NRA/gun nutters would go for any type of ban anyway, but at least try to start with weapons like ARs, to reduce the likelihood of similar events happening.

 

[nakedfrog]

Interesting, the insane part to me is having people that want to murder each other.

I mean, people have expressed an interest in murdering each other for all of recorded history, and presumably earlier...

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Well for this discussion we are talking about teenagers wanting to murder their own class mates?

There is something absolutely wrong with the education system that is letting everyone down, from the victims, to those that feel the need to resort to violence.

In literally any other country the gun ownership and restriction discussion would have been settled decades ago, it's seems the US cant even get the first step right. How is everyone going to tackle the social issue when no-one can even resolve simple gun legislation?

We've figured out how to hyper-partisanize basically everything, to the point that no rational discussion can take place at all. Just look at the shit people are calling me in this thread, and I actually want gun control. Just stating that it won't happen gets people ready to throw shit at me.

Your deflection game is getting tiresome. If you want to create a thread discussing mental health you can, otherwise for the sake of this thread about guns, please....
View attachment 62770
(unintentional pun intended)

Case in point. This is a mental health discussion, not only for the actual shooters/would-be-shooters, but the people that vote, the people we vote for, and the people trying to turn us all against each other.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I mean, people have expressed an interest in murdering each other for all of recorded history, and presumably earlier...

Usually because someone told them to, or for stuff, or because they were spurned in some way. Widespread indiscriminate anonymous slaughter is a pretty modern invention afaik.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Interesting, the insane part to me is having people that want to murder each other.

I don't think there is anything can do about that. We may never evolve past the whole animal 'kill or be killed' instincts. There will always be some people that decide their cause is worth killing for. That their life is so bad that they want out, and to hurt the people they see as responsible for their misfortune on their way. Or to simply go out in a 'blaze of glory' (why the hell is that even a trope? Answer that and you will understand how hard it is to stop).

All the things you mentioned in your other post will help moderate it some, maybe reducing how often the occurrences are. It would also help if we stopped glorifying violence as a solution to nearly any problem. As I saw someone say the other day, you can literally show someone being chopped in half on TV and no one bats an eye, but have a nipple slip and the entire country goes insane. Those are our values.

All we can really do is moderate the damage people can do when they decide to destroy. We have a lot of tools to do that, but removing guns will always be a mandatory part of that.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I don't think there is anything can do about that. We may never evolve past the whole animal 'kill or be killed' instincts. There will always be some people that decide their cause is worth killing for. That their life is so bad that they want out, and to hurt the people they see as responsible for their misfortune on their way. Or to simply go out in a 'blaze of glory' (why the hell is that even a trope? Answer that and you will understand how hard it is to stop).

All the things you mentioned in your other post will help moderate it some, maybe reducing how often the occurrences are. It would also help if we stopped glorifying violence as a solution to nearly any problem. As I saw someone say the other day, you can literally show someone being chopped in half on TV and no one bats an eye, but have a nipple slip and the entire country goes insane. Those are our values.

All we can really do is moderate the damage people can do when they decide to destroy. We have a lot of tools to do that, but removing guns will always be a mandatory part of that.

Right, so in the same way you imagine that nothing can be done about the human condition that causes us to be exceedingly violent toward one another, I feel that no progress will be made on the gun debate in America because of the way our political system currently works. If we change that, we can address the gun issue, otherwise something else needs to be done to curb this.

Govt mandate to increase teacher pay to 75k/yr to increase teacher numbers, de-densify classrooms, and pull students remote might not be the worst idea, though it only helps with part of the problem.

 

[blackangst1]

Anyone want to take a crack as to why AR - 15s are the preferred weapon of choice for mass murderers?

Thay arent. Thats the lie you've been fed.

Handguns are the most common weapon type used in mass shootings in the United States, with a total of 146 different handguns being used in 98 incidents between 1982 and June 2022. These figures are calculated from a total of 129 reported cases over this period, meaning handguns are involved in about 76 percent of mass shootings.

• Guns used in mass shootings U.S. 2021 | Statista

Many favor long guns, like AR-15s and AK-47s. Semiautomatic rifles account for fewer than 1 percent of overall shootings in the United States, they found — but 25 percent of mass shootings.

What Do Most Mass Shooters Have in Common? They Bought Their Guns Legally. - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

We need to change the language regarding specifically AR15's. There are over 11M in circulation, and most commonly used in varmint and competition shooting. Reason is, very little recoil. Has nothing to do with caliber, because another popular gun, the AR308, is much deadlier. Because they are so popular, theyre easy to get.

 

[Bitek]

You know how I know you've never traveled?

I stay in nicer hotels? 😉

Elevator and doors don't work w/o a key past the lobby.

Motel 6s and flop houses tho...


Seriously, a locking door to a school is pretty minimal requirement. It's been true for all my kids schools for quite some time, but lots of unserved schools out there we can invest some money into.

 

[nakedfrog]

Usually because someone told them to, or for stuff, or because they were spurned in some way. Widespread indiscriminate anonymous slaughter is a pretty modern invention afaik.

Well, to be fair, we didn't exactly have the best tools for that kind of thing until fairly recently either, speaking of modern inventions.

 

[Bitek]

Great. The new talking point by gun nutters is people die other ways, so solve those first before touching our guns. Asshats 🤬🤬🤬

Im no gun nutter, but if we don’t drastically cut down our emissions, everybody is going to be dead regardless.

Bingo. In addition to sparing the performative hypocrisy and selective outrage, understanding the perspective, and leverage, of the other side of the negotiating table is crucial to getting a deal done.


A task so far all of DC has done horribly. Since the Ds are in charge, this really falls on them heaviest.

Similar to the climate bill that went nowhere.

Let's see, Beto and Biden, after insinuating all gun owners are baby killers, led with "we're taking all your ARs, and 9mms..." and 1000% taxes and all sorts of unconstitutional proposals

So far they've got, what?

Maybe some red flag laws (at state level) and expanded background checks, and little else.

Great strategy.

 

[purbeast0]

Let's see, Beto and Biden, after insinuating all gun owners are baby killers, led with "we're taking all your ARs, and 9mms..." and 1000% taxes and all sorts of unconstitutional proposals

Link to these claims?

 

[Bitek]

Remember how absurd it was when, during the height of covid with thousands of deaths a day, conservatives wouldn't shut the fuck up about how more people die from car accidents and heart disease so really it's not a big deal?

Yea you definitely don't sound like them right now.

I didn't make the claim that "guns are the number 1 killer of kids." That's negotiator in Chief.

That's clearly misleading.

Let's do something to fix problems, but let's not lie about it.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Bingo. In addition to sparing the performative hypocrisy and selective outrage, understanding the perspective, and leverage, of the other side of the negotiating table is crucial to getting a deal done.


A task so far all of DC has done horribly. Since the Ds are in charge, this really falls on them heaviest.

Similar to the climate bill that went nowhere.

Let's see, Beto and Biden, after insinuating all gun owners are baby killers, led with "we're taking all your ARs, and 9mms..." and 1000% taxes and all sorts of unconstitutional proposals

So far they've got, what?

Maybe some red flag laws (at state level) and expanded background checks, and little else.

Great strategy.

The Ds are not in charge. The Rs still have this nation's balls in a vice, and the only thing capable of loosening their grip is Americans who actually vote.

 

[blackangst1]

The Ds are not in charge. The Rs still have this nation's balls in a vice, and the only thing capable of loosening their grip is Americans who actually vote.

Right. No matter if the D's have 100% of the seats in House and Senate, it will still be the GOP's fault.

 

[Zorba]

Usually because someone told them to, or for stuff, or because they were spurned in some way. Widespread indiscriminate anonymous slaughter is a pretty modern invention afaik.

I think that has to do with having modern tools. I think most of the school shooters do feel spurned, and have applied that to a general group.

 

[dainthomas]

Right. No matter if the D's have 100% of the seats in House and Senate, it will still be the GOP's fault.

I feel like there is some number between 50 and 100 that they could get a lot more stuff done.

But people are mad that dems aren't getting anything done they want, so they'll react by voting for the people blocking everything they want. Big brain move.

 

[Bitek]

Link to these claims?

Damn guys... You really aren't following the news and statements D politicians are making. This loose talk is why there is ZERO trust in gun control bc it's seen as the incremental steps to outright bans.

I don't agree, but I see the statements and know how they play and why it's counterproductive. All these are big news items on gun community sites, gets ppl fired up, and put huge pressure on Rs to give in on NOTHING because it's believed Ds true plan is total confiscation.



Some highlights:

Joe Biden Says 9mm Bullet 'Blows The Lung Out of The Body'

The president made the comments a day after visiting grieving families in Uvalde, Texas, where 19 children and two teachers were killed in a mass shooting.

www.newsweek.com

A non liberal source

Biden goes on anti-gun tirade, suggests there’s ‘no rational basis’ for 9mm pistols

Biden ranted against ownership of what he called “high-caliber weapons” while appearing to rule out the possibility of taking major executive action on guns.

nypost.com

" Why does anyone need a 9mm, at least .22s can be surgically removed. High caliber bullets... They should be banned"

-nvm that .22s are lethal, and 9mm is actually a small pistol round, and generally the goal of self defense is to kill the person attacking you, not flesh wounds.

Nonsensical wrt previous statements, where Biden said all you need is a "double barreled shotgun" for self defense, which would do a hell of a lot more than a 9mm, or an AR. Only thing in common is more bans.

Joe Biden: buy a shotgun, not an assault rifle, to protect your home

US vice-president in online video Q&A says a 12-gauge shotgun is more than enough to see off intruders

www.theguardian.com

Beto has flip flopped back and forth on bans. He's currently on bans (for now.)

Beto O’Rourke renews calls for tougher gun laws after Uvalde shooting, including on assault weapons

O’Rourke became known on the presidential campaign trail for his “Hell yes” promise to ban assault weapons. He’s been less vocal about the policy in his run for governor but this week, after the school shooting in Uvalde, he’s been newly assertive about the issue.

www.texastribune.org

The 1000% tax on ARs idea:

Democrat proposes filibuster-proof 1,000% tax on AR-15s

Rep. Don Beyer says Democrats can pass the measure without any Republican votes.

www.salon.com

Goes on and on.

 

[Zorba]

I didn't make the claim that "guns are the number 1 killer of kids." That's negotiator in Chief.

That's clearly misleading.

Let's do something to fix problems, but let's not lie about it.

Guns have become the top injury-related cause of death for U.S. kids

In 2020, more kids were killed by guns than motor vehicle crashes. for the first time in recent history

www.axios.com

I agree, stop lying about it.

 

[Bitek]

The Ds are not in charge. The Rs still have this nation's balls in a vice, and the only thing capable of loosening their grip is Americans who actually vote.

We've been thru this before...

Ds control the legislature and the executive. Unreliable voters on this issue.

Rs have the judiciary, the power behind a constitutional amendment, and a highly motivated voter base.

Ds will get nowhere without aggressive and creative negotiations and a willingness to concede items that Rs want.

Asking for pie in the sky is only playing to bases, offending the opposition, and punting to the next election.

I want something actually done, but I'm far more realistic than what I hear from other Democrats, and I'm not down for stupid feel good/culture war ideas that just limits rights for law abiding citizens and makes no real differences in body count.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think that has to do with having modern tools. I think most of the school shooters do feel spurned, and have applied that to a general group.

That may be the case, and it may be that the more modern tools make a person feel 'powerful enough' to do it, though I'd posit that an average 18 year old could kill a room full of kids with a sword just the same, assuming a responsible teacher with a sword didn't stop him. I still say common, indiscriminate random attacks against one's own population is a new occurrence.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Ds will get nowhere without aggressive and creative negotiations and a willingness to concede items that Rs want.

'aggressive and creative negotiations' in this case probably look like 'national gun registry in exchange for national voting system overhaul'. Gotta exchange one restriction of constitutional rights for another.

 

[Bitek]

Guns have become the top injury-related cause of death for U.S. kids

In 2020, more kids were killed by guns than motor vehicle crashes. for the first time in recent history

www.axios.com

I agree, stop lying about it.

It's a problem, don't get me wrong, but they combined several sources together (homicides, suicides and accidents.)

it's also an increase in crime by teens, and it's also one year in the year everyone stopped driving, motor vehicle deaths were up for them, as well as a large increase in drug and alcohol deaths... Yikes.

Look at Philly and the recent shooting. Hell the huge increase in crime, shootings, carjackings, homicides. They are carrying pistols illegally already.

What is also happening, massive increases in concealed carry permits and new gun owners looking to protect themselves because they don't feel safe.

Are the current proposals really tackling that issue tho? I'm in favor of raising the age limit, but how are AR bans and red flag laws going to stop teens who are illegally possessing a weapon, and never went thru a legal process to aquire one?

Talking about banning 9mm and disarming law abiding citizens when crime is spiking and illegal gun trafficking is rampant won't be embraced when ppl don't feel safe.

Something is clearly wrong with the teen set, but I'm not convinced we're focusing on the true problem.