Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

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uallas5

Golden Member
Jun 3, 2005
1,605
1,855
136
Wild west y'all. Best of luck.
Except the fact that the "Wild West" is mostly a myth, first created by pulp fiction writers and then reinforced by Hollywood. The real history of the west doesn't jibe with our collective John Wayne sense of self-aggrandizement, which is completely entangled in the whole gun fetish thing.

How wild was the Wild West? | Live Science
In reality, the West was a lot tamer than it's often portrayed in popular culture,...

The Wild West of Myth and Reality - Historyplex

In spite of these specific incidents of violence, the lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over. Dime novels written in the East in the latter part of the 19th century exaggerated, or simply made up, stories about the crimes and criminals of the West. Hollywood later perpetuated the myth, feeding the public’s desire for excitement and adventure with stories of gunfights in the street and stagecoach robberies. The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison.

Even the whole "big iron on your hip" is completely blown out of propostion:

However, fans of Hollywood westerns may be surprised to learn that many western towns had strict gun ordinances, making it illegal to carry guns in town. People entering the town were required to surrender their firearms to the sheriff. In fact, a story that has come to epitomize the violence of the Wild West involved a conflict over such a law. When Virgil Earp, along with his brothers Morgan and Wyatt and their friend Doc Holliday, confronted five cowboys in the city of Tombstone over carrying firearms in town, violence erupted. This incident became known as the gunfight at the OK corral. Yet it’s interesting to note that even in this most famous gunfight of the violent West, only three people were killed.

Gun Control Is as Old as the Old West | History| Smithsonian Magazine

“People were allowed to own guns, and everyone did own guns [in the West], for the most part,” says Winkler. “Having a firearm to protect yourself in the lawless wilderness from wild animals, hostile native tribes, and outlaws was a wise idea. But when you came into town, you had to either check your guns if you were a visitor or keep your guns at home if you were a resident.”

Could the "Wild West" be a rough and dangerous place and time to exist? Yes, definitely, especially if happened to be where there was either something like the gold rush happening or near the territories where the Native Americans were being pushed off of. But was it anything like the myths and legends portray it? No, definitely not.
 

NWRMidnight

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
3,450
2,980
136
Except the fact that the "Wild West" is mostly a myth, first created by pulp fiction writers and then reinforced by Hollywood. The real history of the west doesn't jibe with our collective John Wayne sense of self-aggrandizement, which is completely entangled in the whole gun fetish thing.

How wild was the Wild West? | Live Science
In reality, the West was a lot tamer than it's often portrayed in popular culture,...

The Wild West of Myth and Reality - Historyplex

In spite of these specific incidents of violence, the lawlessness of the Wild West has been blown out of proportion. Ironically, the myth of the lawless West began before the period was over. Dime novels written in the East in the latter part of the 19th century exaggerated, or simply made up, stories about the crimes and criminals of the West. Hollywood later perpetuated the myth, feeding the public’s desire for excitement and adventure with stories of gunfights in the street and stagecoach robberies. The true story of the Old West is boring by comparison.

Even the whole "big iron on your hip" is completely blown out of propostion:

However, fans of Hollywood westerns may be surprised to learn that many western towns had strict gun ordinances, making it illegal to carry guns in town. People entering the town were required to surrender their firearms to the sheriff. In fact, a story that has come to epitomize the violence of the Wild West involved a conflict over such a law. When Virgil Earp, along with his brothers Morgan and Wyatt and their friend Doc Holliday, confronted five cowboys in the city of Tombstone over carrying firearms in town, violence erupted. This incident became known as the gunfight at the OK corral. Yet it’s interesting to note that even in this most famous gunfight of the violent West, only three people were killed.

Gun Control Is as Old as the Old West | History| Smithsonian Magazine

“People were allowed to own guns, and everyone did own guns [in the West], for the most part,” says Winkler. “Having a firearm to protect yourself in the lawless wilderness from wild animals, hostile native tribes, and outlaws was a wise idea. But when you came into town, you had to either check your guns if you were a visitor or keep your guns at home if you were a resident.”

Could the "Wild West" be a rough and dangerous place and time to exist? Yes, definitely, especially if happened to be where there was either something like the gold rush happening or near the territories where the Native Americans were being pushed off of. But was it anything like the myths and legends portray it? No, definitely not.
You missed the point. It doesn't matter if the "Wild West' is/was mostly a myth. It doesn't mean it can't become a reality, even in today's modern times. The Recent ruling by the Scotus brings us one step closer to just that. If you step back and look at the "pro gun" nutters, that is exactly what they are working towards. It's actually already started.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,054
8,858
136
We're on a trajectory for a balkan/syrian style civil war.

It's not going to be The South vs. The North or whatever, it's going to be splinter groups, paramilitaries, national guards, state police, city police, local police, sheriffs, etc.

Stand your ground laws that were the precursor to "constitutional carry" and now "everyone can conceal carry everywhere" laws, are the products of oligarchs who know what is coming and are planning to build their own militias to defend the fiefdoms they plan on running as aristocrats. Fascism is just a step in the direction of neo-feudalism. Kinda how socialism is a step towards communism, and in case you've missed it, we're not anywhere near that side of the equation.

None of this should come as a surprise if you're paying attention. How many more 2020 elections do you think this country has left in it? Shit's just going to be all-good by 2040 (if we're lucky) when tens of millions of climate refugees are traversing thousands of miles to escape death?

Again. As a liberal, you can safely own a firearm and know how to operate it. To defend yourself, family, and community.

Call me a doomer if you want, but how everyone here can openly discuss the rising fascism and climate crisis, and yet think...and really let this sink in...your local police department is going to come and protect you from a relatively-well-trained militia sporting "assault rifles", body armor, and maybe some local police...is mind boggling to me. Has the overarching lesson of Uvalde been missed for the horrendous spectacle of dead children? Because, and I repeat...you aren't confiscating any guns, and in the face of danger, THE POLICE ARE NOT GOING TO SAVE YOU.
 
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uallas5

Golden Member
Jun 3, 2005
1,605
1,855
136
You missed the point. It doesn't matter if the "Wild West' is/was mostly a myth. It doesn't mean it can't become a reality, even in today's modern times. The Recent ruling by the Scotus brings us one step closer to just that. If you step back and look at the "pro gun" nutters, that is exactly what they are working towards. It's actually already started.
I understood the point. I also wanted to point out that the myth of the "Wild West" that so idolized by the gun nutters is actually that, a myth. Unfortunately they're so wrapped up in that false mythos of how guns were treated and used in the past, it rules how they think today. If at no point in US history did the plurality, never mind majority, of Americans walk around armed, why did we just have a ruling saying that based on "history" there shouldn't be any restrictions on anyone walking around armed today? It's because of our distorted view of history based on these false notions.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,667
30,968
146
I'd say otherwise. To serve and protect. Their job is (among other things) to get shot at before other people do. They're supposed to be our sheepdogs, not wolves.

This is pretty much all they ever remind us of when their salaries and access to military weapons are threatened: "Our jobs are dangerous and we put ourselves on the front line every day!"

Except when they choose not to, which is apparently every fucking time

These shitclown pigs need to go.
 
Jul 27, 2020
24,899
17,310
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A thought that almost always crosses my mind whenever I read about police related troubles:

Why can't the police be a branch of the military?

Why not have the same guys willing to lay down lives for the country be the same ones maintaining law and order? A country not only needs protection from external threats but also domestic ones too.

I would argue that domestic threats are more serious in their potential to destabilize a country. All an enemy needs to do is get the different groups in a country fighting each other and while they are busy destroying their own country from the inside out, the enemy enjoys the show and has less planning to do in taking that country down.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,114
17,452
126
A thought that almost always crosses my mind whenever I read about police related troubles:

Why can't the police be a branch of the military?

Why not have the same guys willing to lay down lives for the country be the same ones maintaining law and order? A country not only needs protection from external threats but also domestic ones too.

I would argue that domestic threats are more serious in their potential to destabilize a country. All an enemy needs to do is get the different groups in a country fighting each other and while they are busy destroying their own country from the inside out, the enemy enjoys the show and has less planning to do in taking that country down.


Because there are very strict rules about deploying military on your general population.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,667
30,968
146
I understood the point. I also wanted to point out that the myth of the "Wild West" that so idolized by the gun nutters is actually that, a myth. Unfortunately they're so wrapped up in that false mythos of how guns were treated and used in the past, it rules how they think today. If at no point in US history did the plurality, never mind majority, of Americans walk around armed, why did we just have a ruling saying that based on "history" there shouldn't be any restrictions on anyone walking around armed today? It's because of our distorted view of history based on these false notions.

Conservatives are about to fuck around and find out exactly why the "Wild West" towns had very strict gun laws that outlawed open or concealed carry in their towns, and never were the "proud tradition of America" that their fevered brains believe them to be.

Republicans are the dumbest humans to ever walk the earth.
 
Jul 27, 2020
24,899
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Because there are very strict rules about deploying military on your general population.
I'm not talking about martial law. Why keep the police civilian and give them enough power to act like privileged pricks? Why not give the domestic policing to the military who ARE privileged anyway?
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,114
17,452
126
I'm not talking about martial law. Why keep the police civilian and give them enough power to act like privileged pricks? Why not give the domestic policing to the military who ARE privileged anyway?

the moment you put the police force under military, it is martial law. if you say you are only going to hire ex military, everyone will say you are militarizing the police.
 
Jul 27, 2020
24,899
17,310
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the moment you put the police force under military, it is martial law. if you say you are only going to hire ex military, everyone will say you are militarizing the police.
Historically speaking, has the military abused their power enough for the public to distrust them and not want them around them in their daily lives? Or is it just politicians who don't want to share their power with the military elite?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,929
16,012
146
Historically speaking, has the military abused their power enough for the public to distrust them and not want them around them in their daily lives? Or is it just politicians who don't want to share their power with the military elite?
The military fights enemies abroad, or defends the home from enemies abroad if necessary. The police force protects citizens at home. Two different jobs, two ways to go about it, and ne'er the two shall meet.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
99,114
17,452
126
Historically speaking, has the military abused their power enough for the public to distrust them and not want them around them in their daily lives? Or is it just politicians who don't want to share their power with the military elite?


this is written into the constitution in like every democracy.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,929
16,012
146
You sure about that?
Sorry, to clarify, that's the job description. In reality our police force has become militarized, and they see the citizenry as the enemy. This is literally why you do not want a military as your police force.

Ironically our police forces would do better in most circumstances because they're more disciplined for the most part. It's still the wrong tool for the job, though.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,212
29,470
136
Sorry, to clarify, that's the job description. In reality our police force has become militarized, and they see the citizenry as the enemy. This is literally why you do not want a military as your police force.

Ironically our police forces would do better in most circumstances because they're more disciplined for the most part. It's still the wrong tool for the job, though.
The role of the police force is to protect property not people.
 
Jul 27, 2020
24,899
17,310
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My original intention in mentioning the military for the police job was to propose a solution to the "police is too afraid" problem because I would hope the military has fewer cowards.
 

eelw

Lifer
Dec 4, 1999
10,218
5,324
136
My original intention in mentioning the military for the police job was to propose a solution to the "police is too afraid" problem because I would hope the military has fewer cowards.
What’s the percentage of active police that are former military? I’d bet quite high. Sure you get the high school bully that gets a badge to further stroke their ego and act like a bigger bully but is really just a sissy like these Uvalde cops.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,743
9,634
136
Historically speaking, has the military abused their power enough for the public to distrust them and not want them around them in their daily lives? Or is it just politicians who don't want to share their power with the military elite?

Really sounds like a bad idea. "Historically speaking" using the military for policing has rarely worked out well. It's usually associated with countries being invaded and put under occupation.

Civilian policing and war-fighting are two very different things, needing very different 'skill sets'. If anything part of the current problem seems to be having a police that sees itself as an occupying army in hostile territory.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
25,525
11,905
136
I understood the point. I also wanted to point out that the myth of the "Wild West" that so idolized by the gun nutters is actually that, a myth. Unfortunately they're so wrapped up in that false mythos of how guns were treated and used in the past, it rules how they think today. If at no point in US history did the plurality, never mind majority, of Americans walk around armed, why did we just have a ruling saying that based on "history" there shouldn't be any restrictions on anyone walking around armed today? It's because of our distorted view of history based on these false notions.
Good old Death Valley Days. Narrated by St. Regan.
 
Jul 27, 2020
24,899
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"I think that there has always been a fear that women will make things up, that women will try to take revenge on their dating partners through lying about abuse and trying to get these firearm restrictions on them," she says. "And that fear is unfounded. In fact ... a large proportion of people who experience abuse never report it to the courts or law enforcement."

Woman saying that the fear of women acting disingenuously is unfounded? How naive of her to not figure out that some women will start abusing this law now precisely because it exists?

Female domestic abusers: "I will report you for abuse and take your gun rights away, Bitchhhhh!"

Amber Heards everywhere will rejoice.
 
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