Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,991
16,116
146
Opinions can be changed, ask the advertising industry. Look at the number of people in the US who smoke compared to 50 years ago.

Two types of folks, those who ride out and fight, those who wait for the world to end.
Just make sure you're fighting the right fight. Wrong one can set you back, Democratic leadership has never really learned that lesson.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,991
16,116
146
It helps when one party never does anything wrong and never holds itself accountable. Democrats aren't fighting a fair battle.
And rubbing their nose in it never really works for Conservatives. They just blame Democrats for having their face covered in shit.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,397
31,338
136
Opinions can be changed, ask the advertising industry. Look at the number of people in the US who smoke compared to 50 years ago.

Two types of folks, those who ride out and fight, those who wait for the world to end.
One of the reasons I say ban all gun advertising and remove the industry lawsuit exemption
 
Reactions: Lezunto

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,291
5,345
136
My argument against the SC's decision regarding reproductive rights and for the current 2A decision remains the same: The Constitution limits the powers of the government, it does not grant rights.

The SC's decisions across the last two weeks have been beyond the pale, though.
The argument was that the limits regarded the ability of the states to raise armed forces.
Not the right of citizens and non citizens to play cosplay with loaded weapons.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,991
16,116
146
The argument was that the limits regarded the ability of the states to raise armed forces.
Not the right of citizens and non citizens to play cosplay with loaded weapons.
Then why the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'? Why not 'The right of states to maintain an armed militia shall not be infringed'? We don't take additional interpretations for other amendments.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,230
32,645
136
Yeah I remember at the time thinking Sandy Hook was mostly white victims in the suburbs and if that did not spur change then nothing would.
Looks like I was unpleasantly correct. My next idea is start arming blacks in massive numbers. Last time that happened the NRA pushed for gun control.
Never again is what we swore the time before.

 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,320
4,590
136
Then why the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'? Why not 'The right of states to maintain an armed militia shall not be infringed'? We don't take additional interpretations for other amendments.
It does say that. It just uses the flowery language that Thomas was fond of to do so.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is literally talking about the security of the capital S state, not individuals. It does not say that a person has a right to keep and bear arms, but the people do.
Just as 'we the people' was never intended to be specific individuals, but the collective, so in this case is the people a collective right not a individual one.
There is no one man militia. a militia is a collective, and they even pointed out that it needed to be well regulated because they knew the danger of poorly regulated groups with arms.

It seems plain to me that they intended the right to keep and bear arms to be a collective right and modified by the fact that they be both in a militia and that that right could be taken away if that militia was not deemed to be sufficiently regulated to keep them under control.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,991
16,116
146
It does say that. It just uses the flowery language that Thomas was fond of to do so.



It is literally talking about the security of the capital S state, not individuals. It does not say that a person has a right to keep and bear arms, but the people do.
Just as 'we the people' was never intended to be specific individuals, but the collective, so in this case is the people a collective right not a individual one.
There is no one man militia. a militia is a collective, and they even pointed out that it needed to be well regulated because they knew the danger of poorly regulated groups with arms.

It seems plain to me that they intended the right to keep and bear arms to be a collective right and modified by the fact that they be both in a militia and that that right could be taken away if that militia was not deemed to be sufficiently regulated to keep them under control.
I mean, are we going to start applying the same standard to other amendments? Does the 'right of the people to peaceably assemble' not actually mean that the general populace has that right? Is that subject to limitation to some specific subset of 'people', such as only those exercising religion, or part of the press? Those are both specifically cited in the 1A.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,320
4,590
136
I mean, are we going to start applying the same standard to other amendments? Does the 'right of the people to peaceably assemble' not actually mean that the general populace has that right? Is that subject to limitation to some specific subset of 'people', such as only those exercising religion, or part of the press? Those are both specifically cited in the 1A.
The same standard means that the 'right of the people to peaceably assemble' means that the general population has that right, but an individual might not, and that is literally how it is treated. Compare wording of the 2nd amendment to something like the 5th.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

See how it repeatedly says 'Person' and 'Himself'. It is clearly stating that individuals have this right. It could have been written 'The People shall not be held to answer for a capital...' but it does not because that would have made it a collective right instead of an individual one.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,991
16,116
146
The same standard means that the 'right of the people to peaceably assemble' means that the general population has that right, but an individual might not, and that is literally how it is treated. Compare wording of the 2nd amendment to something like the 5th.
So individuals don't retain the right to freely express religion? What subset of 'the people' retain the right to assemble if the individual doesn't? If it's 'any subset', does that mean any group of citizens which regard themselves as a militia can still retain whatever arms they'd wish?
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,320
4,590
136
So individuals don't retain the right to freely express religion?

Not expressly, no.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Does not mention The People or person. It talks about what Congress can't do. No where does it say that that you have the right to freely express religion, only that can Congress can't prohibit it. It amounts to the same thing, but the wording sidesteps the question of it being an individual or collective right. They can't prohibit it at all, so it does not matter.

What subset of 'the people' retain the right to assemble if the individual doesn't? If it's 'any subset', does that mean any group of citizens which regard themselves as a militia can still retain whatever arms they'd wish?
Yes, as long as it is well regulated by the State. That would presume that the State also gets to determine what the requirements are to be a militia.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
Frankly, I don't even want to hear the details about this latest shooter.
Like with all the other mass murderers, this guy looks pretty scary and totally insane.
And the republicans will say.... "it's all about mental health".
Well, the grains of sand in the sea are uncountable and so are the number of mentally challenged future mass murderers owning assault weapons. One after another they will come. So why focus on this one or that one when there will be soooo many more to come?

Personally, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it. I do not want to hear about this guys social media posts or his background or how easy it was for him to get a gun. I don't care, because we all know the problem here. Everyone knows the problem here. It is the availably of assault weapons, why they are allowed to exist in the first place, and why the NRA thinks everyone has a "right" to own one.
THAT is the problem. Until THAT PROBLEM is addressed, nothing will change. So until this is taken seriously, I don't want to hear it.....
 
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sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
Another thing about the love for guns....
One reason and possibly the main reason why people want guns and especially want assault weapons and why the congress and the NRA want people to have assault weapons is not for protection and not because of the 2nd amendment and not because of a personal freedom thing, the reason people want assault weapons is that far too many people actually believe that one day the government will declare war on the American people. Well, at least declare war on the republicans.
And so, people actually believe in a scenario where they are in the streets with their assault weapon protecting their families and neighborhoods against government invaders. I know I know, it just proves the extent of their paranoia, but still this is what they believe.

If the government were to invade America, assault weapons wouldn't stop the government. If the government were to engage in all out war against civilians, in the streets, the government would use tactics far beyond guns and bullets. Instead, the government would pull out their secret weapon.... Nancy Pelosi.

But it's sad that millions of citizens would actually believe that the US government will one day wage war against them. And more unbelievable, that owning an assault weapon would make any difference, any difference at all.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,670
6,246
126
Government would have a segment of the Population on its' side. Government is a Subset of The People, after all.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
8,678
7,288
136
Some sad shit seeing Uvalde Police act like some real hardasses to good citizens after being such worthless cowards when the fat fucks were actually needed.

 
Reactions: igor_kavinski

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,800
9,705
136
Then why the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'? Why not 'The right of states to maintain an armed militia shall not be infringed'? We don't take additional interpretations for other amendments.


I don't pretend to know what it means, but the wording of that amendment is odd. I don't see why it has so many commas in it - it makes it hard to parse for a modern English speaker. It reads like a list of sentence-fragments.

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

I don't get what function that first comma has. Or even the last one. Why isn't it “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

Or even
“Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,991
16,116
146
I don't pretend to know what it means, but the wording of that amendment is odd. I don't see why it has so many commas in it - it makes it hard to parse for a modern English speaker. It reads like a list of sentence-fragments.

“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

I don't get what function that first comma has. Or even the last one. Why isn't it “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

Or even
“Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
As was mentioned, the founders had a penchant for flowery language. That said, our language may look just as obtuse in a few hundred years. Hence the importance of very, very specific language, as well as a willingness to adjust.
 
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