News Intel GPUs - Falcon Shores cancelled

[gaav87]

Everyone is laughing at the 190W tdp and non-dense low voltage mobile like design.
All i see is 20Gbps samsung mem that will easy go 22-22.5Gbps and core at 3.1Ghz at like 1.0V @230W
For +25% over rtx4060 xD

 

[poke01]

Everyone is laughing at the 190W tdp and non-dense low voltage mobile like design.
All i see is 20Gbps samsung mem that will easy go 22-22.5Gbps and core at 3.1Ghz at like 1.0V @230W
For +25% over rtx4060 xD

View attachment 112584

all I see is wait for N48

 

[gaav87]

all I see is wait for N48

Yeah N48 = 4080s from leaks
Just like 7900xtx = 4090 from leaks
Hahaha

 

[marees]

Yeah N48 = 4080s from leaks
Just like 7900xtx = 4090 from leaks
Hahaha

I would be happy if N48 beats 4070 ti super (for a launch price of $600) on RT & matches 7900xt on raster

 

[poke01]

Yeah N48 = 4080s from leaks
Just like 7900xtx = 4090 from leaks
Hahaha

Touché

 

[gaav87]

I would be happy if N48 beats 4070 ti super (for a launch price of $600) on RT & matches 7900xt on raster

I would not 7900xt good AIB open box with full waranty can be found at 600$ or even under w/o VAT in Poland.
I even found 700-730$ 7900xtx so yeah...
I would rather get nvidia for 600$...

 

[DAPUNISHER]

The best thing about the B580 is it is going to put pressure on AMD and Nv pricing. What they are both charging for 8GB is unacceptable.

Also good to see frame generation and an improved software suite with better overclocking tools.

Let's hope that unlike rebar, they fixed the older API performance issues. If someone tests Arkham Knight and it still won't launch, that's bad. It'll mean you still have to use DXVK; no bueno for the PnP experience you have to be able to offer. TAP says it dunks on AMD so I expect that means ray tracing and XeSS 2 are coming along nicely. Of course dunking on the 7600 is not exactly impressive. It's been getting posterized since launch.

 

[coercitiv]

I would rather get nvidia for 600$...

Classic.

 

[Tup3x]

The best thing about the B580 is it is going to put pressure on AMD and Nv pricing. What they are both charging for 8GB is unacceptable.

Also good to see frame generation and an improved software suite with better overclocking tools.

Let's hope that unlike rebar, they fixed the older API performance issues. If someone tests Arkham Knight and it still won't launch, that's bad. It'll mean you still have to use DXVK; no bueno for the PnP experience you have to be able to offer. TAP says it dunks on AMD so I expect that means ray tracing and XeSS 2 are coming along nicely. Of course dunking on the 7600 is not exactly impressive. It's been getting posterized since launch.

Intel gets instant win against any 8GB card.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Classic.

I was looking for the downvote arrow on that one. My Pulse 7900XTX was $610 NIB to my door. Nothing from Nv at that price I'd swap it for.

Intel gets instant win against any 8GB card.

Which is outstanding. We could not say that with the A770 16GB. Anxious to see XeSS 2 in action. I am tempted to buy one...

 

[coercitiv]

Intel's card design is pretty nice at conceptual level, implementation obviously needs testing: small PCB, an entire fan gets to push air through the card.

 

[DigDog]

$249 US suggested retail price = £319 UK launch price

 

[ToTTenTranz]

dGPU clients, in a sobbing voice:
GPUs are so expensive! Why are they charging so much money for GPUs?! I can't keep up at this rate!

Also dGPU clients:

I would rather get nvidia for 600$...

Selling 270mm^2 N5 dies at a cost is not a viable business model and you know it.

I don't know that 270mm^2 N5 selling for $250 is at a cost. Is it?

A N5 wafer goes for how much nowadays? $20 000? So around 200 chips per 300mm wafer, each chip costs $100.
My guess is the whole GPU can be made $200 or lower, and then Intel + 3rds parties get a $50 markup.

Which is a far cry from how much Nvidia is getting for their GPUs, but if they're making money then we're all good.

NV cuts prices a wee bit and they win. Intel can't price it any cheaper due to BOM.

You were just claiming Nvidia wasn't going to lower their prices, so which is it?

Is Nvidia in a better position to lower their prices for this range? Yes. Were they ever going to do it, had Intel not launched a GPU with this performance at this price? No.

Especially with AMD continuously failing at providing a decent price advantage over Nvidia's offerings. The "10% lower performance at 15% lower price" was never going to cut it, and it seems only AMD is failing to see that.

 

[igor_kavinski]

You were just claiming Nvidia wasn't going to lower their prices, so which is it?

Yeah, not gonna happen with the way the layperson has been brainwashed to believe that Nvidia==Best at everything. These fools will buy a cheaper lower performance Nvidia card rather than a higher performance competitor card for the same price.

 

[leoneazzurro]

I don't know that 270mm^2 N5 selling for $250 is at a cost. Is it?

A N5 wafer goes for how much nowadays? $20 000? So around 200 chips per 300mm wafer, each chip costs $100.
My guess is the whole GPU can be made $200 or lower, and then Intel + 3rds parties get a $50 markup.

N5 prices should be around 19K, maybe volume agreements may lower it a little. With 270 mm*2 yield should be around 180 good dies per wafer so cost may easily be around 100$ per die. But this is only the die. Then you have packaging, testing and transport (because packaging and testing are done very often in a different factory, and very often that factory is in another country) so you can add easily another 20 to 40$ to get the packaged and tested GPU. And then you have PCB, memory, VRMs and other components to mount on the PCB, the cooling system and finally labour cost for assembly and testing (and again, this is easily done in another factory and in another country). So having around 200+$ of direct costs of manufacturing only is very plausible. Then there are indirect costs as well (R&D, sales, finance, HR, fixed assets, etc.). It is easy to see that if you already start paying the die 100$ and you want to sell the whole card at 249$, with OEM vendors needing to get their (little) margin as well, the sale is going to be at loss or at break even in the best of cases. For having a profit, you should pay the GPU die in for the 249$ card at 80$ or less. Which means you need to have a yield of 240 or more good dies per wafer, that is, a die area closer to the 200 mm^2.

 

[jur]

N5 wafer price is much less than 19k. Not sure where, but I remember seeing something around 13-14k.
I don't think the goal is to have good margins, but to get market share and cover at least some development costs.

Otherwise I find the new GPU quite nice for the price. Of course I'm not talking about PPA and technicals, but from user's perspective. I'll probably buy it to play around with LLMs (and oneapi), for use with Premiere pro and Lightroom. Card should be good for basic AI and image / video processing.

 

[leoneazzurro]

I thought I got a bad pricing but well, it seems there were some increases, and we are looking at 2025 already.

TSMC may increase wafer pricing by 10% for 2025: Report

TSMC plans to hike wafer pricing for HPC customers by 10%, 3% - 4% for other clients, according to analysts.

finance.yahoo.com

So basically N3 is going to be over 20K$ per wafer, and N4/N5 be around the amount I stated earlier, and N2 will approach the 30K$ mark. Crazy when in the 2023 projections were way lower.
In any case, as said, volume agreements may lower the starting die price. But my post goal was more about the fact that a card costs are not only about the GPU, and there are a lot of factors to be considered. I.e. transport costs increased a lot in the recent past.

 

[igor_kavinski]

They will fab enough dies to last them till the end of 2025 so they should've gotten a good price. Remember, Alchemist is still not sold out. End of year's sales should put a dent in their inventory (with the A770 hitting as low as $249 or even lower).

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel card already OOS!

 

[LightningZ71]

The AIBs will certainly have a few "boutique" SKUs that push the $299 range. There will be money to be made for the AIBs on their end of the market.

As for "NVIDIA or nothing," I know of quite a few people that would have happily purchased a laptop with a competitive AMD dGPU over the last few years. My own son purchased a laptop with a 6800 dGPU a couple years ago, but had to return it under extended warranty because the manufacturer couldn't repair it when the display stopped working. Arguably, laptops are a FAR bigger market these days, and AMD is just completely unable to serve it in any meaningful way.

Like Anand has said in the past, there are no (well, very few) chips so bad that they are completely sellable, the same goes for GPUs. Everything has a price.

As for Intel eating costs for these GPUs, as I said, if they want into the market, they have to pay the price. They could just saturate the market with advertising and other marketing, or they could just let the market know that it's available, and eat the same amount of money on losses per card to sell them at a price people are willing to purchase them for.

 

[gdansk]

Yeah N48 = 4080s from leaks
Just like 7900xtx = 4090 from leaks
Hahaha

Anyone pushing rumors that it performs better than expected are malicious. It is clearly not mere stupidity anymore.

I don't know why they do it.

Well now I have one idea why. To make N48 seem like a disappointment, somehow, despite that it will still thoroughly beat Intel in both PPW, PPA.

 

[blckgrffn]

They will fab enough dies to last them till the end of 2025 so they should've gotten a good price. Remember, Alchemist is still not sold out. End of year's sales should put a dent in their inventory (with the A770 hitting as low as $249 or even lower).

I got into a handwaving match with someone on Slickdeals, but Alchemist stock should be dead. No one should buy it. Up and down the range, it has been superseded. New A770 "deal" price should be what? Less than $200 by a long shot. $150? What's the point of it? It's old and slow and hungry and needs a house of cards software wise to prop it up that may or may not be there in the future.

Yeah, there's no $100 battlemage card but that market is saturated with better used GPUs, finally. IMO.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I got into a handwaving match with someone on Slickdeals, but Alchemist stock should be dead. No one should buy it. Up and down the range, it has been superseded. New A770 "deal" price should be what? Less than $200 by a long shot. $150? What's the point of it? It's old and slow and hungry and needs a house of cards software wise to prop it up that may or may not be there in the future.

Yeah, there's no $100 battlemage card but that market is saturated with better used GPUs, finally. IMO.

- Was having the same thought the other day. My 980ti in my steam box is getting le tired and it would be nice to replace it with an absolutely dirt cheap A770 but its also the family game box and I really don't want to deal with wife/kids being upset because their games are having issues or stuttery or just won't launch properly etc.

If Alchemist was ironclad guaranteed another 2-3 years of updates then it might be worth considering, but at this point who knows if Intel dGPUs will even be a thing in 2-3 years.

I'm thinking I might wait for 7900XTX prices to crash, replace my 6800XT, and then move that over into the steambox at this point.

 

[blckgrffn]

- Was having the same thought the other day. My 980ti in my steam box is getting le tired and it would be nice to replace it with an absolutely dirt cheap A770 but its also the family game box and I really don't want to deal with wife/kids being upset because their games are having issues or stuttery or just won't launch properly etc.

If Alchemist was ironclad guaranteed another 2-3 years of updates then it might be worth considering, but at this point who knows if Intel dGPUs will even be a thing in 2-3 years.

I'm thinking I might wait for 7900XTX prices to crash, replace my 6800XT, and then move that over into the steambox at this point.

I am looking at the Moonlight & Sunshine stuff here:

Moonlight Game Streaming: Play Your PC Games Remotely

Moonlight allows you to play your PC games remotely on almost any device.

moonlight-stream.org

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/zoytbv/sunshine_is_a_game_stream_host_for_moonlight

Wondering if I can repurpose something I have in my quiver for my basement, including a lonely R-pi5 so I can not torture my sleeping family with "late night" Dad group gaming but also avoid having another ~$1k PC in the mix.

Likely its own thread, but I hear what you're saying.

My 6800 will be replaced with a top tier RDNA 4 part. Then what? I feel a COVID hoarders desire to keep it "just in case", which isn't rational but I burned myself solidly selling off a whole box of GPUs in like November 2019 on Craigslist for a laughable amount.

 

[tajoh111]

Die Yield Calculator - iSine

DIE YIELD CALCULATOR Use this online calculator to figure out die yield using Murphy’s model. You’ll need to know the die size, wafer diameter, and defect density. iSine is your complete resource for ASIC design – from concept to manufacturing and testing. We have expertise in system...

isine.com

Using a 0.07 defect density, 16.3mm2 *17mm2(a die 277mm2) = 162 good dies which is 98 dollars per die at 16k per wafer. Add in chip packaging and your over 100.

Add in a cooling solution for a 200watt product and you add another 20 atleast.

Add in PCB and power circuitry and your adding in another 30-40 dollars.

Add in memory which is another 50-70 dollars.

Add in logistics(shipping), packaging and you are probably at 220. The rest goes to the partner leaving no profit for Intel or a loss. And these losses can be tremendous when you mix in R and D.

Analyst: Intel Has Lost $3.5 Billion on Arc GPUs, Might be Time to Ditch It

Respected analyst Jon Peddie thinks it's time for Intel to pull the plug on Arc to stop the bleeding.

www.extremetech.com

Intels loses for ARC were already 3.5 billion in 2022. ARC 580 is going to do nothing towards this.

The response from people just shows the entitledness of gamers. ARC may be cheap for a 12gb card with such a large die, but it has no future at this price point particularly when you consider Intel's financials. Without data center and with the increasing cost of wafers, the discrete market just doesn't have the legs of the CPU market. The dies are too big along with other added costs to create a videocard.