Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

We're talking about chinese source, not videocardz.

What are you talking about?
Videocardz article has this link as source -> ithome.com (Chinese source)
In that link you can find those charts with numbers included.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Videocardz

Barely able to match 13700H in MT: https://valid.x86.fr/bench/5zrq9u

If they had launched this in 2021, it would've been groundbreaking. Now it will just be OK for people like us. For the general public, they will get better battery life or thinner laptops with same battery life as they were previously used to from Intel laptops. Personally, I would put it in a 18.4 inch laptop with as large a battery as possible. You know, for picnics

 

[Philste]

In that link you can find those charts with numbers included.

Nope, and same goes for the Video on Bili Bili and Weibo. Right now Videocardz is the only Site where the Graphics exists with numbers. However, like I said, the Videocardz Article came out BEFORE the current Video version. So the most likely thing is that they took the Video and Press Release News from IThome down and reuploaded it without actual numbers.

Edit: Just checked the current graphics on IThome, if you download it and zoom in enough, you can see that they photoshopped the numbers out. Some slight color/alignment inaccuracies in these spots.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I bet everything is ready to launch so Intel should break their own NDA and open the floodgates. Millions of zombies ready to own thousands of Core Ultra laptops.

There will be absolute pandemonium. Apple will get jealous!

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Nope, and same goes for the Video on Bili Bili and Weibo. Right now Videocardz is the only Site where the Graphics exists with numbers. However, like I said, the Videocardz Article came out BEFORE the current Video version. So the most likely thing is that they took the Video and Press Release News from IThome down and reuploaded it without actual numbers.

Edit: Just checked the current graphics on IThome, if you download it and zoom in enough, you can see that they photoshopped the numbers out. Some slight color/alignment inaccuracies in these spots.

What are you talking about?
I just opened that link and what is there?
This ->

link: https://www.ithome.com/0/738/050.htm

I see scores there!

 

[Philste]

Barely able to match 13700H in MT: https://valid.x86.fr/bench/5zrq9u

If they had launched this in 2021, it would've been groundbreaking. Now it will just be OK for people like us.

I will wait for real Benchmarks. These are all shown as ES and these AIDA results are never ever final. 50ns L3 Latency, worse than Sapphire Rapids that accesses L3 over multiple Chiplets. These current Leaks have too many red flags to believe in them. But yeah, I expect official reviews from the typical outlets no later than December 15th, if not immediately during the Launch Event. And first Devices probably also ship immediately.


Also here is what I mean with photoshopped spots in current graphics on IThome:
This is one of the most prominent spots but you will find them on nearly all Bars and these spots always align with the spots where the numbers in the Videocardz Graphic are.

 

[PJVol]

I just opened that link and what is there?
This ->

Post the direct link to the picture from ithome.
Here is what I see:

https://img.ithome.com/newsuploadfiles/2023/12/5e88d3c7-bb41-4fad-aa00-df84531089df.png

And btw, perf. uplift from 6400 to 7467 is 4% with saga off, +8% is saga on.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Post the direct link to the picture from ithome.
Here is what I see:

https://img.ithome.com/newsuploadfiles/2023/12/5e88d3c7-bb41-4fad-aa00-df84531089df.png

I still see the one with the scores.
Here It is.

https://img.ithome.com/newsuploadfiles/2023/12/e0f7be9d-4d2d-4dab-8a0a-159d2adda7d5.png?x-bce-process=image/quality,q_75/format,f_webp

And btw, perf. uplift from 6400 to 7467 is 4% with saga off, +8% is saga on.

No.
6400 sagv on 100%
7467 sagv on 104%
7467 sagv off 108%

 

[PJVol]

I still see the one with the scores.
Here It is.

Cool They're definitely different, lol.
Probably one is from webcache

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Cool They're certainly different, lol.
Probably one is from webcache

I tried a different browser(Opera) and It still shows with the numbers If I open the article link I posted above.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Very constructive discussion going on

 

[PJVol]

No.
6400 sagv on 100%
7467 sagv on 104%
7467 sagv off 108%

Off/on - who cares... The increase under the same conditions is 4%.

 

[PJVol]

Very constructive discussion going on

Not gonna join?
The discussion level is quite worthy the subject itself, if you like. Although this is only my opinion.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Off/on - who cares... The increase under the same conditions is 4%.

My understanding is that SAGV is a new term for DLVR. Turning it off would hamper battery life but increase performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[PJVol]

My understanding is that SAGV is a new term for DLVR. Turning it off would hamper battery life but increase performance. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I see it from their docs it's kinda add-on to the DVFS where the memory performance serve as the base points.
DLVR is likely the same thing as AMD's dLDO, although I'm not sure if current Intel CPU's have it implemented

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Off/on - who cares... The increase under the same conditions is 4%.

But we don't know If It's also true when It's 6400 off vs 7467 off.
Not like I care that much about It.

 

[igor_kavinski]

AMD's dLDO

WHAT????

I'm very sure that Lisa did not approve this term. If she did, damn she's naughty!

 

[Hitman928]

Only 3 days are left. I think we will endure It, right guys?

Some new leaks.

Videocardz

Those latency numbers are icky. I have to believe (or hope) something is wrong with their sample/setup

 

[Hitman928]

WHAT????

I'm very sure that Lisa did not approve this term. If she did, damn she's naughty!

That's not an AMD term, it's used by many throughout the industry. Simply stands for digital LDO (low dropout regulator).

 

[igor_kavinski]

digital LDO

That's what it should be called.

Google dLDO and you will know why.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Those latency numbers are icky. I have to believe (or hope) something is wrong with their sample/setup

Well, if that's really a bad ES setup, gotta say the performance is respectable and we have something nice to look forward to with latency around 75ns.

 

[Hitman928]

That's what it should be called.

Google dLDO and you will know why.

I don't think anyone has to google it to know what you were referring to.

Well, if that's really a bad ES setup, gotta say the performance is respectable and we have something nice to look forward to with latency around 75ns.

It won't effect tests like Cinebench or CPUz but others it will, gaming especially (not counting synthetics like Timespy).

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It won't effect tests like Cinebench or CPUz but others it will, gaming especially (not counting synthetics like Timespy).

If It's paired with dGPU yes, but I don't think with the iGPU It will matter.

 

[dullard]

So what price-class of devices will Lunar Lake feature in?

Sub-$1000 possible?

Ultraportable laptops, fanless industrial PCs, digital signage, SFF PCs, etc. Anything where there isn't the space for massive batteries or the cooling is not available for high powered devices. Heck, I can see Intel try to open up a new market of an AI box where massive CPU throughput isn't the priority. Think kiosks for information, guidance, shopping (simulate you wearing all the outfits in the store), etc.

There are a few sub-$1000 Ultraportable laptops. But not many, and usually the sub-$1000 ones skimp on something. You'll probably find better ones more in the $1100 to $1300 range (unless on a good sale). Just as a quick result, scan these suggested laptops, not many are sub-$1000: https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-ultraportable-laptops

 

[maddie]

In your own words: With your AMD bias, I can tell you whats going to happen to your favourite brand starting December 14th.

Intel, for the last 5 years, have been releasing outdated products built on outdated nodes based on outdated and power-hungry core designs. Something that even I find a bit despicable. But in spite of all these severe shortcomings, they managed 88% desktop & laptop CPU market share consistently leaving AMD in dirt picking up scraps. And the credit goes to Intel marketing. They're one of the best in the industry.

Now Intel has given these sharks with an amazing product they've been waiting for all these years. A hyper power-efficient CPU thats far more advanced and a true engineering marvel compared to AMD's old and outdated chiplet design. Not only they're just going to simply outsell AMD like always, but this time it's going to a massacre and it's going to be very brutal.

AMD's time has come. Live with it. And I think it's time to start praying so that Intel has some decent competition in the future for our own good. 😧

posterity.