Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[ondma]

Launch later this summer? New information about the new branding scheme early June says wccftech.

Intel Demos Meteor Lake's VPU, Delivering Huge Boost To Generative AI Content & Stable Diffusion

Intel Meteor Lake CPUs are right around the corner and the company gave us an early demo of the AI performance we can expect from its VPU.

wccftech.com

If the details are only released in Q3, that makes it seem unlikely that the "launch" would be "later in the summer" (sept at the latest). Seems like the launch would have to be fall or winter, at least for the cpu to actually be available in notebooks in reasonable quantity. It would be nice if they could have products out for back to school, but it seems more likely near the holiday season.

 

[mikk]

If the details are only released in Q3, that makes it seem unlikely that the "launch" would be "later in the summer" (sept at the latest). Seems like the launch would have to be fall or winter, at least for the cpu to actually be available in notebooks in reasonable quantity. It would be nice if they could have products out for back to school, but it seems more likely near the holiday season.

Details (Announcement?) in August, launch in September. No problem.

 

[dullard]

Details (Announcement?) in August, launch in September. No problem.

I don't think anything specifically prevents a September launch. But Intel hasn't had many (any?) September launches. They regularly launch at the end of August and mid-October. I could guess that the back-to-school season isn't a good launch time, but that is just a guess.

Edit: Strikethrough of "any?" added for mikk as TigerLake-U was announced in August but Launched 2 days later on Sept 2, 2020.

 

[igor_kavinski]

But Intel hasn't had many (any?) September launches.

Tiger Lake had a September launch. After that, their mobile CPU launches have gotten delayed to January. Maybe this time, they want to take advantage of the holiday buying season. Can't fault them for that. They need some profits in their hollow coffers.

 

[Exist50]

A general rule of thumb is that it takes a quarter from volume shipments to OEMs to get the first wave of devices on shelves, and another quarter or so to get broad volume across the lineup (slower, cheaper cargo shipments). So to hit a major buying cycle like back to school or Black Friday, they need to start shipping ~2 quarters prior. Surely they would like to hit back to school, but at this point it seems more realistic to hope for some volume on shelves by the holidays.

 

[mikk]

I don't think anything specifically prevents a September launch. But Intel hasn't had many (any?) September launches. They regularly launch at the end of August and mid-October. I could guess that the back-to-school season isn't a good launch time, but that is just a guess.

Icelake-U launched in August or September and Tigerlake-U was a similar story.

 

[trivik12]

I think we will know next month during earnings status of MTL. They will say shipping to customers or something similar.

 

[dullard]

Icelake-U launched in August or September and Tigerlake-U was a similar story.

Laptop CPU launch dates aren't as easily defined as desktop CPUs. There is the date when the chips are sold, but then there is another date when the laptops are sold.

Dell announcement with Ice Lake-U: May 28, 2019: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14426/when-ice-matters-dell-announces-xps-13-2in1-with-ice-lakeu
Ice Lake-U Unveiling: July 30, 2019: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14514/examining-intels-ice-lake-microarchitecture-and-sunny-cove
Ice Lake-U Preview: Aug 1, 2019: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14664/testing-intel-ice-lake-10nm

I'm not certain that I would personally call that a September launch. I think it aligns more with my comment of August.

They regularly launch at the end of August

True, most laptops didn't come out until September through January. But, I personally call a launch the date that all the previews come out.

I'll give you Tiger Lake-U though. While it was announced August 13, it wasn't sold until Sept 2. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1595...ation-for-august-13th-launch-on-september-2nd

 

[mikk]

Laptop CPU launch dates aren't as easily defined as desktop CPUs. There is the date when the chips are sold, but then there is another date when the laptops are sold.

Dell announcement with Ice Lake-U: May 28, 2019: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14426/when-ice-matters-dell-announces-xps-13-2in1-with-ice-lakeu
Ice Lake-U Unveiling: July 30, 2019: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14514/examining-intels-ice-lake-microarchitecture-and-sunny-cove
Ice Lake-U Preview: Aug 1, 2019: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14664/testing-intel-ice-lake-10nm

I'm not certain that I would personally call that a September launch. I think it aligns more with my comment of August.

True, most laptops didn't come out until September through January. But, I personally call a launch the date that all the previews come out.

I'll give you Tiger Lake-U though. While it was announced August 13, it wasn't sold until Sept 2. https://www.anandtech.com/show/1595...ation-for-august-13th-launch-on-september-2nd

It doesn't make a difference, you missed the point. The point is Intel did launch mobile CPUs in a similar timeframe in the past. Whether it's August or September depends solely on the launch readiness of Meteor Lake. There is no hardcoded launch timeframe for these CPUs.

 

[dullard]

It doesn't make a difference, you missed the point. The point is Intel did launch mobile CPUs in a similar timeframe in the past. Whether it's August or September depends solely on the launch readiness of Meteor Lake. There is no hardcoded launch timeframe for these CPUs.

Yes, I missed your point. Do you have one? I said August launches are common and you come back with an August launch chip and another chip that was announced in August but launched early Sept. Is there a point there?

I even said that nothing prevents a September launch. So you come back with "There is no hardcoded launch timeframe". Is repeating exactly what I say your point? If so, I don't understand why you would feel the need to make such a point that was previously made.

 

[Tigerick]

Guys, I have been studying about the core architecture of Intel Alchemist to find out more about tGPU of future CPU. Below is some rumors about upcoming Battlemage and Celestial GPU. Intel is not really serious about selling discreet GPU, what Intel wants is to build tGPU as power efficient as possible. Thus every increment model is advancing by die shrinking from N6 to N4P and then N3E. I don't expect any changes in core architectures of Xe cores, only some clock speed improvements.

	Date	Node	Die Size	Memory	Memory BW	Render Slices	Xe Cores	Vector Engines/EU	ALU	Clock	FP32	TGP
Alchemist A770 16GB	Q3 2022	N6	406 mm2	16GB 256-bit GDDR6	17.5 Gbps @ 560 GB/s	8	32	512	4096	2100	17.2 TF	225W
Battlemage	2024	N4P	253 mm2 ?	12GB 192-bit GDDR6?	20 Gbps @ 480 GB/s	5	20	320	2560	?	?	?
Celestial	2025	N3E	180 mm2 ?

What is interesting is upcoming tGPU cause I have counted not two but four variants of tGPU, namely GT1, GT2, GT3 and GT5:

	GT1	GT2	GT3	GT5 ?
Use in	MTL, ARL	MTL, ARL	Lunar Lake, ARL	Arrow Lake Halo
Node	N4P	N4P	N3B/N3E ?	N3E
Render Slices	1	2	3	5
Xe Cores	4	8	12	20
Vector / EU	64	128	192	320
ALU	512	1024	1536	2560
Memory Bus	128-bit	128-bit	128-bit 8533	256-bit 8533 ?

• Lunar Lake: People has been wondering with N3B process, why Intel still going for 4P+4E solution? Turn out Intel has prioritized integrated GPU over CPU in Lunar Lake. GT3 with 1536 ALU would provide much better graphics performance and better compete with upcoming M3, 8cx Gen 4 and AMD's Hawk Point.
• Arrow Lake Halo: there is rumor about 320EU for quite some times. Intel is aiming M2 Pro by creating mega APU. With total ALU of 2560, Intel is targeting upcoming M3 Pro, 8cx Gen 4 Pro and AMD's Sarlak. The only question is Intel needs 256-bit memory bus to feed the bandwidth. Hmm, that's mean SoC has to be designed with 256-bit support?

Above are mostly my speculation, any insights please update me

@BionicSquash Do you have anything to add?

 

[eek2121]

Thay already much refined their Intel 7 process for RPL compared to what they used for ADL, starting from here they will hardly get 2x the perf/watt at same perf, most probably something like 35% lower power for the first Intel 4 iteration at best.

Intel 4 is a different beast. Take a look at the Meteor Lake leaks. Intel is adding more cores and also splitting up the die while also raising the base clocks by more than 80%. While we don’t know the PL1/2, these should be 28W parts unless Intel is…being Intel.

These chips are going to be game changers for Intel and x86 in general. I can’t wait to see more. This is the type of chip I would love to see in my next laptop.

 

[A///]

i lost the thread of conversation because of gedda's long winded rants but what the hell is the 2 e cores on the soc tile for? the 8+6+2 for example?

 

[nicalandia]

Intel 4 is a different beast. Take a look at the Meteor Lake leaks. Intel is adding more cores and also splitting up the die while also raising the base clocks by more than 80%. While we don’t know the PL1/2, these should be 28W parts unless Intel is…being Intel.

These chips are going to be game changers for Intel and x86 in general. I can’t wait to see more. This is the type of chip I would love to see in my next laptop.

Dont get your hopes too high on MTL...

 

[A///]

These chips are going to be game changers for Intel and x86 in general. I can’t wait to see more. This is the type of chip I would love to see in my next laptop.

don't get too excited. we've all heard this bs before in the past. nothing's worth getting your knickers wet be it amd or intel until their products are third party evaluated.

 

[jpiniero]

i lost the thread of conversation because of gedda's long winded rants but what the hell is the 2 e cores on the soc tile for? the 8+6+2 for example?

So it can power down the entire CPU tile if able.

 

[A///]

So it can power down the entire CPU tile if able.

cpu tile being the 8 p cores ans 6 e cores and getting by with the 2 e cores on the soc tile?

 

[jpiniero]

cpu tile being the 8 p cores ans 6 e cores and getting by with the 2 e cores on the soc tile?

The options are 2+8 or 6+8. Course they can (and will) cut that down.

 

[dullard]

cpu tile being the 8 p cores ans 6 e cores and getting by with the 2 e cores on the soc tile?

Not quite 2 E cores on the SOC. But the rumors are for 2 even lower power E cores on the SOC. The chip would have P, E, and LP-E cores. The goal is to maximize battery life by making the idle even lower power but still functional. Think of always-on tasks that phones have (voice commands, weather display, text/email, time display, or similar) when the phone is idle. Then apply the same thoughts to laptops. Maybe it could act like a smart speaker, security device, AI with voice commands, etc. all while the laptop is using as low power as Intel can possibly reach. Heck, despite most people not using the functionality, computers can do all the texting you want which would be nice without having to start up the laptop / tablet.

 

[mikk]

Yes, I missed your point. Do you have one? I said August launches are common and you come back with an August launch chip and another chip that was announced in August but launched early Sept. Is there a point there?

But Intel hasn't had many (any?) September launches

You missed the point with this starting point. You are basically saying MTL can't launch in September because Intel haven't done many in September. This is some nonsense. It's not like they is a hardcoded launch timeframe which prevents a September launch. In fact Intel launched several new generations in the past during late summer or early autumn. Tigerlake-U launched in September! I guess you don't understand this.

 

[Exist50]

Guys, I have been studying about the core architecture of Intel Alchemist to find out more about tGPU of future CPU. Below is some rumors about upcoming Battlemage and Celestial GPU. Intel is not really serious about selling discreet GPU, what Intel wants is to build tGPU as power efficient as possible. Thus every increment model is advancing by die shrinking from N6 to N4P and then N3E. I don't expect any changes in core architectures of Xe cores, only some clock speed improvements.

	Date	Node	Die Size	Memory	Memory BW	Render Slices	Xe Cores	Vector Engines/EU	ALU	Clock	FP32	TGP
Alchemist A770 16GB	Q3 2022	N6	406 mm2	16GB 256-bit GDDR6	17.5 Gbps @ 560 GB/s	8	32	512	4096	2100	17.2 TF	225W
Battlemage	2024	N5/N4P	250 mm2 ?	12GB 192-bit GDDR6?	20 Gbps @ 480 GB/s	6	24	384	3072	?	?	?
Celestial	2025	N3E	180 mm2 ?

What is interesting is upcoming tGPU cause I have counted not two but four variants of tGPU, namely GT1, GT2, GT3 and GT5:

	GT1	GT2	GT3	GT5
Use in	MTL, ARL	MTL, ARL	Lunar Lake	Arrow Lake Halo
Node	N4P	N4P	N3B	N3E
Render Slices	1	2	3	5
Xe Cores	4	8	12	20
Vector / EU	64	128	192	320
ALU	512	1024	1536	2560
Memory Bus	128-bit	128-bit	128-bit 8533	256-bit 8533 ?

• Lunar Lake: People has been wondering with N3B process, why Intel still going for 4P+4E solution? Turn out Intel has prioritized integrated GPU over CPU in Lunar Lake. GT3 with 1536 ALU would provide much better graphics performance and better compete with upcoming M3, 8cx Gen 4 and AMD's Hawk Point.
• Arrow Lake Halo: there is rumor about 320EU for quite some times. Intel is aiming M2 Pro by creating mega APU. With total ALU of 2560, Intel is targeting upcoming M3 Pro, 8cx Gen 4 Pro and AMD's Sarlak. The only question is Intel needs 256-bit memory bus to feed the bandwidth. Hmm, that's mean SoC has to be designed with 256-bit support?

Above are mostly my speculation, any insights please update me

@BionicSquash Do you have anything to add?

Lunar Lake isn't a tile GPU. And for that SoC, its sole purpose was to show that Intel could compete with Apple in a true apples to apples comparison. So they basically compied the general workload priorities Apple targeted. As for ARL PX, we'll see if what, if anything, shows up there.

 

[dullard]

But Intel hasn't had many (any?) September launches

You missed the point with this starting point. You are basically saying MTL can't launch in September because Intel haven't done many in September. This is some nonsense. It's not like they is a hardcoded launch timeframe which prevents a September launch. In fact Intel launched several new generations in the past during late summer or early autumn. Tigerlake-U launched in September! I guess you don't understand this.

Would you like me to remove the "(any?)" portion of my post? Is that what you are all in a huff about because Tiger Lake was announced in August and launched Sept 2? Which is quite close to my "They regularly launch at the end of August" comment. Are you mad about my generalized statement summing up the last couple decades of Intel launches being off by a measly 2 days for one chip?

August launches are very common for Intel. There are certain key dates that are worthy of pushing all your resources behind. September isn't one of those dates. If the chip isn't going to be ready in August, then there is no reason to go all hands on deck to rush a September launch. Can a September launch occur? Certainly. This chip will launch when ready. But Intel isn't going to go all out with rush payments, putting in extra overtime, etc. just to meet a September launch. That is why Intel chips have been far more likely to launch in August (back to school, especially for desktop launches) and October (holiday season).

 

[Geddagod]

i lost the thread of conversation because of gedda's long winded rants but what the hell is the 2 e cores on the soc tile for? the 8+6+2 for example?

Classy as ever A///, blaming your own ignorance on my 'rants', when I haven't even typed in this thread in like a week lmao

That is why Intel chips have been far more likely to launch in August (back to school, especially for desktop launches) and October (holiday season).

If they manage to launch in time for back to school, might just grab a MTL laptop myself lol.

 

[Geddagod]

MSI displays new Prestige 16 at Computex, the world's first Intel Meteor Lake laptop - VideoCardz.com

MSI Prestige 16 with Meteor Lake The company is showing a new laptop at Computex, which is now confirmed to feature Intel’s unreleased Meteor Lake CPU. Notebookcheck discovered that one of the new systems in the MSI booth features an undisclosed Intel CPU. The product named Prestige 16 is based...

videocardz.com

This MTL laptop is slated to launch in Q4 though, so both August and September seem a little less likely... maybe this laptop is one of the later ones to launch tho in the MTL lineup. It's the top sku (6+8) and the 2+8 skus were the CPUs always rumored to launch first for MTL.

 

[A///]

Classy as ever A///, blaming your own ignorance on my 'rants', when I haven't even typed in this thread in like a week lmao

it's hard to keep track of your wall sized posts about what mlid said, ate that day or how many times he farted in a video.