Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[itsmydamnation]

Kissinger was the ultimate strategist in his era, and still is at age of nearly 100.

No he isnt at 100 he is a Putin apologist, you dont want Gelsinger to be anything like him. otherwise Gelsinger is 100% conceding territory to AMD never to return.......

 

[Joe NYC]

No he isnt at 100

Excuse me, I was off by 2 months. He is 99 and 10 months.

he is a Putin apologist, you dont want Gelsinger to be anything like him. otherwise Gelsinger is 100% conceding territory to AMD never to return.......

It seems you can't tell the difference between winning and losing. Kissinger drove a wedge between Russia and China and paved the way to US dominance for the next 50 years.

The current clown show running the US State Department drove Russia and China into an alliance that is stronger than the US + NATO combined, losing that dominance of the US.

So, there you have it: Winning vs Losing, and you can't tell which is which.

We will see if Gelsinger is more like Kissinger or Blinken.

Edit: To go with Analogy where:
Intel = US
AMD = Russia
TSMC = China

Will Gelsinger drive a wedge between AMD and TSMC by giving TSMC a lot of Intel business, or will Intel Foundry push TSMC into an alliance with AMD?

 

[coercitiv]

It seems you can't tell the difference between winning and losing.

Take this elsewhere, please.

 

[igor_kavinski]

AMD = Russia

Not many here will agree with that

 

[IntelUser2000]

It wouldn't be that long because of Raptor Lake Refresh.

You gotta be kidding about Raptorlake refresh making any impact. I know you are smart enough to know this.

Let's put it this way. Do you think a Raptorlake Refresh would be competitive later this year?

It might not be end of the world if the CPU after Raptorlake Refresh isn't until late 2025 as you suggest, but it would certainly point towards end of Intel if they do. The marketshare gain in Q3 last year due to Alder/Raptor was a bright spot in an otherwise very dark quarter.

@igor_kavinski Raptor-R according to the roadmap is set between Q2 and Q3. Computex probably.

 

[jpiniero]

You gotta be kidding about Raptorlake refresh making any impact. I know you are smart enough to know this.

Let's put it this way. Do you think a Raptorlake Refresh would be competitive later this year?

We don't actually know what Raptor Lake Refresh actually entails. The +100 Mhz is just an assumption. And OEMs so far haven't shown that much interest in AMD for their generic desktops, which is most of Intel's desktop sales... and it's pretty much all Zen 2/3, although DDR5 prices might be a big part of that.

And they may not have much of a choice on the timing depending on when their N3E slot is.

 

[igor_kavinski]

We don't actually know what Raptor Lake Refresh actually entails.

Let's hope they finally get DLVR working.

 

[IntelUser2000]

We don't actually know what Raptor Lake Refresh actually entails. The +100 Mhz is just an assumption. And OEMs so far haven't shown that much interest in AMD for their generic desktops, which is most of Intel's desktop sales... and it's pretty much all Zen 2/3, although DDR5 prices might be a big part of that.

No one wants a Raptorlake Refresh. We want them to move to the next gen. They are clocked at 6GHz already, you aren't getting much more other than further manufacturer approved OC.

Why do you think it's only the OEMs that care? Intel kept losing marketshare until Alderlake, and reversed the situation in Q3/Q4 when Raptorlake got released. Their earnings numbers compared to AMD clearly shows it!

ARC numbers also show the growth was in DIY desktop. No laptop manufacturer uses the A770M. Unlike most expectations they are too wary about using Intel. It's DIY that took the chance.

Why? Cause they got competitive, not the useless Rocketlake chip.

Enthusiasts do matter, because their influence is greater than themselves. Companies who ignore them ultimately pay for it, because they are the ones that bring passion to the market, which drives innovation and continued interest and growth.

 

[jpiniero]

Rona killed demand for OEM desktops, which obviously hurts Intel and not really AMD. Then there was a bump in sales mostly because of some RTO.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Rona killed demand for OEM desktops, which obviously hurts Intel and not really AMD. Then there was a bump in sales mostly because of some RTO.

What? Lockdowns increased demand because people were forced to stay at home all day. Again, look at the numbers, Intel gained desktop share.

It decreased after it was rescinded(rightfully), hence the collapse.

We're spending our free time posting here because we care. Other people will see people like us as nerds and wasting time.

That's what OEMs are. They chase after the money and they are smart enough to know that ARC has problems. Yet, DIY took a chance at it. If you see reasons on why people get ARC, it's because they buy based on hope, hope of a third party, hope on change of market. OEMs couldn't care less, since almost zero A770M laptop.

What was the expectation? That lots of laptop would use Intel? Well guess what? They are all WRONG.

 

[DrMrLordX]

ill risk the suspension by saying intel under pat "gunslinger" gelsinger is not looking at cuckholding themselves any further as they have the last five years

They may not have the choice. Intel may be able to continue to move volume, but if they're pushing decidedly inferior parts for too long at too-low margins, it will lead to continued decline. Q1-Q3 2023 will tell an interesting story.

What? Lockdowns increased demand because people were forced to stay at home all day. Again, look at the numbers, Intel gained desktop share.

It remains to be seen whether Intel can continue to gain desktop share with Raptor Lake parts. Also consider that the mobile market is now very much in AMD's court, assuming they'll supply the market as much Phoenix and Dragon Range as it wants. If they pull another Rembrandt then we can be certain that Intel still has the opportunity to push more volume. It may not do them much good though. Watch the earnings reports, see what happens.

 

[Kocicak]

No one wants a Raptorlake Refresh. We want them to move to the next gen.

There is a lot of Alder lake users who resisted upgrade to Raptor lake, even though it brought massive MT and also gaming performance improvements.

A lot of Alder lake users may want to upgrade to even more improved CPUs.

I am not sure why people automatically presume that the Raptor lake refresh may be only a small frequency bump. The frequencies are maxed out or even beyond that already anyway.

 

[igor_kavinski]

@igor_kavinski Raptor-R according to the roadmap is set between Q2 and Q3. Computex probably.

I hope that's true!

Something to look forward to

 

[Hulk]

There is a lot of Alder lake users who resisted upgrade to Raptor lake, even though it brought massive MT and also gaming performance improvements.

A lot of Alder lake users may want to upgrade to even more improved CPUs.

I am not sure why people automatically presume that the Raptor lake refresh may be only a small frequency bump. The frequencies are maxed out or even beyond that already anyway.

I am hoping Raptor Lake keeps frequency of the top end parts the same but brings down power/thermals making all-core 5.5/4.3 attainable with sane (non custom loop) cooling.

But like most people around here Raptor Lake is already a refresh of Alder Lake so I don't see what yet another 10nm refresh can bring to the table.

The Raptor Lake Refresh is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

 

[Hulk]

AMD Data Center share increased by 10% from 2021 to 2022. It doubled from 10 to 20%. That's big. If it should double again then AMD and Intel would be ~parity in this sector.

Data Center CPU Market falls 4.4% in 2022; Intel lost 10% market share

Global Data Center CPU revenue declined 4.4% YoY in 2022; AMD market share was 20%. while Intel market share fell to 71%.

www.counterpointresearch.com

.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Really crazy thought. They enable HT on the e-cores!

 

[jpiniero]

@igor_kavinski Raptor-R according to the roadmap is set between Q2 and Q3. Computex probably.

If you look at the roadmap fine print, it says that's when production chips might become first available. Ya gotta distribute it (by boat...) build up a supply, etc. There was a suggestion of August (probally end of August) not too long ago which makes more sense.

 

[igor_kavinski]

There was a suggestion of August (probally end of August) not too long ago which makes more sense.

Still, I hope they reveal at Computex what's different about the Refresh. Should get people salivating a bit, especially those with Alder Lakes like me

 

[Joe NYC]

Not many here will agree with that

It's a simple analogy.

 

[A///]

So which AMD processor is lukewarm salad? if your referring to Zen4 sales , that has nothing to do with Zen4 performance , its just market and timing. But its funny, for intel to keep up with the luke warm salad we have people running around saying just use DRR5-8000 its totally a daily driver!

Zen 4 performance given the launch and even current pricing models. It just about bypasses Alder Lake and Raptor matches it with some minor differences. It took Zen 4 3d to bypass Raptor in cache sensitive scenarios. The only viable reason you'd go with Zen 4 is if the extra power and heat difference will take a toll on you financially or prefer the "cooler" system, AVX512 and whatever mysteriousness am5 holds.This isn't Am4 going up against constant refreshes of skylake, this is AMD going against Intel and a nearly new p and e core design every year and a half.

I personally am going with a 7950X3D because of the lower energy use and heat. My current computer setups already makes it too hot in my home office that has modern central air + a standalone mini split. I'd replace all 5 systems with a 7950X3D if it were financially feasible because the summer peak pricing would tank my bill.

 

[A///]

Really crazy thought. They enable HT on the e-cores!

I've been saying this for months!

 

[igor_kavinski]

I'd replace all 5 systems with a 7950X3D if it were financially feasible because the summer peak pricing would tank my bill.

All five of them for personal use? Or used by your employees? You could disable a few of the cores on the systems you can't replace to keep their energy use under check.

 

[Markfw]

All five of them for personal use? Or used by your employees? You could disable a few of the cores on the systems you can't replace to keep their energy use under check.

Simply use ECO mode.

 

[A///]

All five of them for personal use? Or used by your employees? You could disable a few of the cores on the systems you can't replace to keep their energy use under check.

Personal use. I don't have employees. These are for cpu encoding 5-10 hours a day from spring to fall. IDK about eco mode or power limiting my current intels. come to think of it I hadn't ran any tests to see what the majore time difference was.

They're all 9th and 10 gen as you can imagine it's a bloody sauna.

 

[igor_kavinski]

These are for cpu encoding 5-10 hours a day from spring to fall.

Buy two 7950X3D's, the other one with the cheapest mobo you can find and you could do the same amount of encoding work (maybe more) than those crappy hot Intels. I have a 12700K and I wouldn't encode on it for too long. It just gets too hot for comfort. Not to mention inefficient. Sell or donate your Intel PCs.