Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[dullard]

its available at all major retailers here. Best Buy has 15 MTL laptops available for sale. That is not uncommon at all.

Your link must be wrong; it lists 5 brands (HP, MSI, ASUS, Alienware, and Gigabyte). We all know that after Abwx edited his post from 2 to 3 computers to 2 to 3 brands, that he now wins the debate.

 

[Glo.]

Then maybe clock for clock IPC...

There must be something really good about it coz adroc didn't say it was crap like all the other Intel stuff

It simply breaks the efficiency game for mainstream computers.

Its years that we had such efficient product in mainstream platforms. By efficient I mean - performant and efficient.

 

[FlameTail]

It simply breaks the efficiency game for mainstream computers.

Its years that we had such efficient product in mainstream platforms. By efficient I mean - performant and efficient.

Intel platforms you mean?

There are those other than Intel who also very performant and efficient.

 

[Hitman928]

First MTL laptop review I've seen with a discrete GPU (4070). Results are. . . not great. Not terrible by any means but I wouldn't consider it good results either. The laptop loses to RPL devices with 4070s and even the one with the 4060. It does look like the 4070 in the MTL is limited to a lower power level than the other dGPUs in the review which I'm sure leads to some of the lacking performance, but the 4060 laptop still beats it and the worst performances for the MTL also seem to come from games that are more CPU limited. The 155H in the MTL laptop is configured with a PL1/PL2 of 50W/70W so CPU benchmarks show strong performance but can't quite catch the RPL CPUs (which have higher power configurations). My suspicion is that MTL's large cache/memory latency is causing lackluster gaming performance as the bottleneck moves from the GPU (with the integrated GPU configurations) to more of a bottleneck with the CPU when a dGPU is used.






Edit: It is hard to draw conclusions from a single design as we've seen many examples of designs just being borked so I won't say this is conclusive but it's not a good first showing.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Their engineers probably knew this during the design phase. That's why they proposed the L4 Adamantine cache. And their fab engineers were like, hell no! We are scared of big caches like that. Too many defects. Then you'll blame us so no, there's no cost effective way for us to give you that. Their CPU architects sighed and went back to their desks, shaking their heads. Some of them started looking for a better job.

 

[Kepler_L2]

Their engineers probably knew this during the design phase. That's why they proposed the L4 Adamantine cache. And their fab engineers were like, hell no! We are scared of big caches like that. Too many defects. Then you'll blame us so no, there's no cost effective way for us to give you that. Their CPU architects sighed and went back to their desks, shaking their heads. Some of them started looking for a better job.

ADM was for GT3 graphics.

 

[trivik12]

Intel Announces Panther Lake Client Platform, Built on Intel 18A For 2025 - Eternity Lab Technology

While the primary focus has been on Intel’s impending Meteor Lake SoC due by the end of the year, Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger unveiled more about their current client processor roadmap. Aside from a demo…

www.eternitylab.com

if all the tiles for Panther is on 18A it would be 1st time Intel is making GFX tile internally. That said it would be good to get some confirmation from a more reliable source like Ian Cutress.

Pivoting to the Panther Lake, Intel, via CEO Pat Gelsinger during Intel Innovation 2023, said that it’s on track for release in 2025; we also know that Intel is sending it to fabs in Q1 of 2024. This means we’re getting Meteor, Arrow, Lunar, and then Panther Lake (in that order) by the end of 2025. Panther Lake aims to build on Lunar Lake with all its tiles fabricated on the advanced 18A node. While (understandably) details are thin, we don’t know what P-core or E-core architectures Panther Lake will use.


Intel’s Innovation 2023 event was a starting point for Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger to elaborate on a comprehensive processor roadmap beyond the much anticipated Meteor Lake SoC, with the first Ultra SKU set to launch on December 14th; this about counts as a launch this year, barring any unexpected foibles. With Panther Lake on track for a 2025 release and set to go to fabs in Q1 of 2024

 

[Abwx]

155H iGPU gaming benchmarks from CB on 11 games: https://www.computerbase.de/2024-02/gaming-meteor-lake-test-intel-core-ultra-7-155h-spiele/

Different memory speeds and package power to the other tested CPUs unfortunately. Newest driver 5234 runs 5% faster than 5008. On the downside MTL crashed sometimes. Driver seems not as stable as on Arc dGPU.

They added the numbers with faster RAM for the AMD 8700G, 7200MHz is comparable to the 7467MHz used for MTL.

The TDPs are not comparable although a 33% difference is unlikely to be bridged by a lower TDP for Hawk Point or a higher TDP for MTL :

Intel Core Ultra 7 155H im Gaming-Test: Benchmarks in Spielen

Gaming mit Core Ultra im Test: Benchmarks in Spielen / Leistungs-Rating 1.920 × 1.080 (Full HD) / Anno 1800 / Baldur's Gate 3

www.computerbase.de

 

[Khato]

The TDPs are not comparable altjough a 33% difference is unlikely to be bridged by a lower TDP for Hawk Point or a higher TDP for MTL :

Why not? The next page of that review has relative performance per watt numbers where the 8700G at DDR5-5200 is 97% the performance per watt of the 8700G at DDR5-7200. Which is to say that the extra performance afforded by the increased memory speed isn't the result of notably higher efficiency, just higher power consumption.

It sounds like there will be another data point from computerbase.de in the form of the Razer Blade 14 with an 8945HS + DDR5-5600 next week. That'll give a better picture of power scaling.

 

[Abwx]

Why not? The next page of that review has relative performance per watt numbers where the 8700G at DDR5-5200 is 97% the performance per watt of the 8700G at DDR5-7200. Which is to say that the extra performance afforded by the increased memory speed isn't the result of notably higher efficiency, just higher power consumption.

It sounds like there will be another data point from computerbase.de in the form of the Razer Blade 14 with an 8945HS + DDR5-5600 next week. That'll give a better picture of power scaling.

Their perf/Watt comparison is useless and irrelevant, the 8700G is tested in a DT configuration that use 37W when idling assuming they used their numbers with iGPU only, when they plug their dGPU the MB use 51W.

That is to say that their MB use 30W more idle power than a laptop with the same chip, at this rate it s easy to produce good results for MTL.

Even for DT vs DT comparison their Asus MB is not that good, it use an integrated audio amplifier + codec that drain 6-7W, a regular audio card is at 0.5-1W.

 

[Khato]

Their perf/Watt comparison is useless and irrelevant, the 8700G is tested in a DT configuration that use 37W when idling assuming they used their numbers with iGPU only, when they plug their dGPU the MB use 51W.

That is to say that their MB use 30W more idle power than a laptop with the same chip, at this rate it s easy to produce good results for MTL.

Even for DT vs DT comparison their Asus MB is not that good, it use an integrated audio amplifier + codec that drain 6-7W, a regular audio card is at 0.5-1W.

I take it you don't realize that their performance per watt chart is based off the package power being reported by the APU/CPU+GPU, so all of the above regarding motherboard/rest of system is irrelevant.

But I can see why it'd be preferred to ignore it given that it shows the 8700G as lower performance and efficiency compared to a 7500F + RX 6400.

 

[Abwx]

I take it you don't realize that their performance per watt chart is based off the package power being reported by the APU/CPU+GPU, so all of the above regarding motherboard/rest of system is irrelevant.

But I can see why it'd be preferred to ignore it given that it shows the 8700G as lower performance and efficiency compared to a 7500F + RX 6400.

The listed package power for MTL is the nominal TDP, because if it was the actual TDP why did they measure this, up to 46W. ?

Heck even PL1 is at 38W, there s no 28W value for PL1 at all :

Intel Core Ultra 7 155H im Gaming-Test

Intel bewirbt Core Ultra alias Meteor Lake auch mit einem Sprung in der Spiele-Leistung. Der Core Ultra 7 155H im Spiele-Benchmark-Test.

www.computerbase.de

 

[Khato]

The listed package power for MTL is the nominal TDP, because if it was the actual TDP why did they measure this, up to 46W. ?

Heck even PL1 is at 38W, there s no 28W value for PL1 at all :

Again with quoting irrelevant metrics from the review?

The performance per watt metrics are not with respect to TDP settings, they're with respect to measured CPU Package Power in the case of APUs. If they were with respect to TDP then the 8700G with DDR5-5200 would be 90% the performance per watt of the 8700G with DDR5-7200 rather than 97%.

 

[Abwx]

Again with quoting irrelevant metrics from the review?

The performance per watt metrics are not with respect to TDP settings, they're with respect to measured CPU Package Power in the case of APUs. If they were with respect to TDP then the 8700G with DDR5-5200 would be 90% the performance per watt of the 8700G with DDR5-7200 rather than 97%.

You can see in the HVInfo screen that the GPU use up to 14W while the CPU is at 41W for a curious 46W grand total, but for some reason it would use only 28W in games even with PL1/PL2 set at higher values, that s total non sense.

Beside the GPU frequency at 14W is 2.1GHz, that s a valuable info since this mean that at 2.5GHz the GPU will use rougly 20W and about 28W at 2.8GHz, in this latter case nothing would be left for the CPU + uncore if the TDP was actually limited to 28W.

That being said if the power is limited to say 46W the chip will use 46W in CPU + GPU usage, there s no way it will use 28W if there s some thermal headroom, there s no mobile CPU that work this way, the only way to limit it to 28W is to make sure that at this power the temperature hit the firmware s 100°C ceiling.

 

[Hitman928]

Intel Announces Panther Lake Client Platform, Built on Intel 18A For 2025 - Eternity Lab Technology

While the primary focus has been on Intel’s impending Meteor Lake SoC due by the end of the year, Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger unveiled more about their current client processor roadmap. Aside from a demo…

www.eternitylab.com

if all the tiles for Panther is on 18A it would be 1st time Intel is making GFX tile internally. That said it would be good to get some confirmation from a more reliable source like Ian Cutress.

That link is just a plagiarized copy of this Anandtech article:

Intel Announces Panther Lake Client Platform, Built on Intel 18A For 2025

www.anandtech.com

They do link to it at the bottom as their source, but it is a straight copy and has no indications of quoting from the original, so it is still plagiarism.

 

[DavidC1]

Would be something if LNL posts higher or even matches Zen 5's ST GB6 score.

No one ever talked about Lunarlake having excellent performance. The primary attraction is mobility, with much improved battery life plus smaller form factors with the mandatory on package LPDDRx memory.

Although I reckon the iGPU should be quite high on the perf/watt list therefore very competitive on that level.

 

[mikk]

The listed package power for MTL is the nominal TDP, because if it was the actual TDP why did they measure this, up to 46W. ?

Heck even PL1 is at 38W, there s no 28W value for PL1 at all :

Intel Core Ultra 7 155H im Gaming-Test

Intel bewirbt Core Ultra alias Meteor Lake auch mit einem Sprung in der Spiele-Leistung. Der Core Ultra 7 155H im Spiele-Benchmark-Test.

www.computerbase.de

The Zenbook 14 155H uses 28W sustained, every reputable test says that.

Interestingly the new bios lowered the PL2 from 50+ watts to 30+ watts. It's a good decision though because the temps are really high otherwise.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I can't wait enough for Lunar Lake. At least it will stop people from hoping that MTL will somehow get "fixed" through BIOS updates. I think the problem runs deeper than just firmware issues. The Raptor Lake team just executed too good and made the MTL team look bad in comparison.

 

[FlameTail]

I can't wait enough for Lunar Lake. At least it will stop people from hoping that MTL will somehow get "fixed" through BIOS updates. I think the problem runs deeper than just firmware issues. The Raptor Lake team just executed too good and made the MTL team look bad in comparison.

Isn't Kubar Laklbe supposed to be a fringe product like Lakefried was?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Isn't Kubar Laklbe supposed to be a fringe product like Lakefried was?

I think it will have much more volume than Lakefield. By the time Lunar Lake is released, there will be plenty of MTL laptops on sale.

 

[eek2121]

LNL is designed for 9 - 15 W, hence his comment. It can go up to 28 W but that's not it's target power range.

Edit: Though who knows what kind of PL2/PL1 scheme it will have so max boost may not be restricted by the power limit but sustained 1t might be.

Even so, with a much more efficient process, 1T performance should not be power limited.

I can't wait enough for Lunar Lake. At least it will stop people from hoping that MTL will somehow get "fixed" through BIOS updates. I think the problem runs deeper than just firmware issues. The Raptor Lake team just executed too good and made the MTL team look bad in comparison.

I don’t think anyone expects MTL to get “fixed”. There just seem to have been some bios issues early on and I think some folks just want to see reviews with the “fixed” bios.

 

[Abwx]

The Zenbook 14 155H uses 28W sustained, every reputable test says that.

Interestingly the new bios lowered the PL2 from 50+ watts to 30+ watts. It's a good decision though because the temps are really high otherwise.

That s wrong, at Computerbase they said that the CPU didnt follow the power set in Windows and that it seemed internally controlled, they added that power figures are not accurate and should be dissmissed as such.

If the CPU was using 28W then they wouldnt have measured 46W in HV info.

Last but not least they said that the fan was spinning at full speed, and yet the CPU
got over 100°C, that s not compatible with a 28W power comsumption, and before you ask the laptop wasnt faulty because they received it from Intel s own hands and that you can be sure that it was tested before delivery.

 

[mikk]

That s wrong, at Computerbase they said that the CPU didnt follow the power set in Windows and that it seemed internally controlled, they added that power figures are not accurate and should be dissmissed as such.

If the CPU was using 28W then they wouldnt have measured 46W in HV info.

Last but not least they said that the fan was spinning at full speed, and yet the CPU
got over 100°C, that s not compatible with a 28W power comsumption, and before you ask the laptop wasnt faulty because they received it from Intel s own hands and that you can be sure that it was tested before delivery.

Computerbase says it runs sustained at 28W and they also say the cooling can't really handle more than 28W sustained. You are wrong.

Want another source? Here you go

Performance – allows the hardware to run at ~28W sustained, with the fan ramping up to ~40 dB;

Asus Zenbook 14 OLED UX3405 review (2024 UX3405MA, Intel Meteor Lake)

This is my detailed review of the 2024 Asus Zenbook 14 OLED UX3405 series.

www.ultrabookreview.com

 

[moinmoin]

Kubar Laklbe (...) Lakefried

I propose we keep using those names!

 

[Glo.]

Lakefried

Mmmmm. Fried Lake.

I have to try this new recipe. Anyone knows which dam is able to Stir Fry a lake?