Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[A///]

Sounds like a load of dookey to me.

in case it isn't obvious dookey was being sarcastic. amd has managed to screw themselves lately. must be one of them modern kinks.

 

[uzzi38]

MTL: Intel Core Ultra 3/5/7 1xxxH

RPL-R: Intel Core 3/5/7 1xxxH

Yeah I hate this new naming scheme too, thanks for asking.

 

[coercitiv]

Here we go, we're getting another rebrand apparently. I'm having an allergic reaction already, but I guess I'll reserve judgement for the launch day when they'll have to use the new branding during keynotes.

Later edit: at least it's not as bad as “Intel Processor”

 

[igor_kavinski]

If they are going with that branding, it means MTL is definitely going to offer a performance uplift. 10%? 15%? 20%? Place your bets, folks

 

[jpiniero]

Maybe they are offering MTL-P for the H segment as well? Because of the 1003H naming.

That's what they have been doing (H being the P die but 45 W Base TDP)

 

[eek2121]

MTL: Intel Core Ultra 3/5/7 1xxxH

RPL-R: Intel Core 3/5/7 1xxxH

Yeah I hate this new naming scheme too, thanks for asking.

Having ultra before 3/5/7 is odd to me.

Also, more indications that Intel 4/3 is in good shape and Intel expects to increase capacity quickly….that or they expect much lower sales volume moving forward. 🤣

By adding “Ultra” to the name, it means they can roll out more SKUs as capacity allows, so I am not totally against it. It also means they can demand a premium over non-Ultra SKUs.

Things are going to get interesting. Hopefully AMD will have something to compete.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It just means they can mix Raptor Lake and Meteor Lake in the same CPU generation while letting people know the difference (sort of).

 

[mikk]

It just means they can mix Raptor Lake and Meteor Lake in the same CPU generation while letting people know the difference (sort of).

According to Bionic_squash Raptor refresh won't get the Ultra naming. Also Intel confirmed the brand change for Meteor Lake.

Intel Confirms New Branding For Meteor Lake CPU, "Core Ultra" Replaces "Core i"

Intel has confirmed that it will be using new branding for its Meteor Lake "Core" CPUs & beyond and will be providing details soon.

wccftech.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653040406538633217

 

[Hougy]

Will "Intel Processor" still happen or did they change their minds?

Here we go, we're getting another rebrand apparently. I'm having an allergic reaction already, but I guess I'll reserve judgement for the launch day when they'll have to use the new branding during keynotes.

Later edit: at least it's not as bad as “Intel Processor”

 

[jpiniero]

Will "Intel Processor" still happen or did they change their minds?

Intel® Processor N-series

ark.intel.com

It replaces Pentium and Celeron.

 

[DrMrLordX]

According to Bionic_squash Raptor refresh won't get the Ultra naming. Also Intel confirmed the brand change for Meteor Lake.

Yup, that's what I figured. Which isn't a terrible idea, though if the Raptor Lake Refresh chips wind up being faster in some cases than the Meteor Lake CPUs (which will likely be the case, at least if Intel releases "desktop" Meteor Lake), it could lead to some confusion.

But at least we know which products are retreads.

 

[coercitiv]

Yup, that's what I figured. Which isn't a terrible idea, though if the Raptor Lake Refresh chips wind up being faster in some cases than the Meteor Lake CPUs (which will likely be the case, at least if Intel releases "desktop" Meteor Lake), it could lead to some confusion.

Based on what we know so far via leaks, MTL-S will use a different socket, the new 800 series chipsets, and will be DDR5 only. At the same time, we know RPL-S Refresh will still use 700 series chipsets.

My take is MTL will share the same timeline with RPL in mobile, but on the desktop I think it will share timeline with ARL. I don't see a place for Raptor on the new socket unless ARL gets stuck in traffic.

 

[ondma]

Having ultra before 3/5/7 is odd to me.

Also, more indications that Intel 4/3 is in good shape and Intel expects to increase capacity quickly….that or they expect much lower sales volume moving forward. 🤣

By adding “Ultra” to the name, it means they can roll out more SKUs as capacity allows, so I am not totally against it. It also means they can demand a premium over non-Ultra SKUs.

Things are going to get interesting. Hopefully AMD will have something to compete.

I dont really see AMD having a problem with competing. I would look at it as hoping MTL can catch up to AMD in efficiency for mobile. I dont see MTL giving Intel a lead in desktop, although it might make them more competitive in efficiency. Hopefully, ARL will be good boost for desktop, but it will at some point compete with Zen 5.

 

[jpiniero]

It just means they can mix Raptor Lake and Meteor Lake in the same CPU generation while letting people know the difference (sort of).

I am wondering about pricing... given how expensive TSMC is. OEMs might actually like having new Raptor Refresh models if the pricing is going to be ugly.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I am wondering about pricing... given how expensive TSMC is. OEMs might actually like having new Raptor Refresh models if the pricing is going to be ugly.

They'll definitely like having more Raptor Lake SKUs to fill in the spots currently occupied by Alder Lake.

 

[A///]

i say faked submission

looks as if intel has confirmed their leaks. did the marketing depot order a few kilos of coke?

 

[igor_kavinski]

did the marketing depot order a few kilos of coke?

Regretting turning down their offer years ago?

 

[A///]

never have never will.

 

[eek2121]

I am wondering about pricing... given how expensive TSMC is. OEMs might actually like having new Raptor Refresh models if the pricing is going to be ugly.

Given that TSMC is only used for GPU and other bits, likely won’t change much. The compute tiles are on Intel 4.

The only reasons TSMC is involved at all are that the GPU IP was always TSMC and it would take work to port it over, and also Intel is currently still limited in capacity until later this year/early next year.

 

[Exist50]

Given that TSMC is only used for GPU and other bits, likely won’t change much.

"GPU and other bits" is the majority of the silicon, if you ignore the base die. There's >100mm2 of N6, and another good chunk of N5. That cost is going to dwarf the compute die.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

So you think they brought back L4 to combat AMD's V$ SKUs?

To me it is much more likely to only support the iGPU. Latencies just won't be the to make an effect for the CPU.

 

[mikk]

MLID becoming more realistic with the claimed IPC improvements in Meteor Lake? Now he says MTL gains "up to" 10% over RPL-R with some tests in the mid single digits range. It's more realistic right?

There are some other claims. Current boost speed projections are 5.2 Ghz for 28W and 5.4 Ghz for 45W. Another claim: MTL is projected to consume 30-45% less energy than RPL-R at same performance below 45W and it launches between August-October.

As for Arrow Lake he says that both mobile and desktop will launch in Q4 2024. Mobile uses 20A whereas desktop uses TSMC N3+N3E. Recent 6+8 vs 6+8 benchmarks show ARL with 30% higher ST and 40% higher mixed average over MTL.

 

[Thunder 57]

MLID becoming more realistic with the claimed IPC improvements in Meteor Lake? Now he says MTL gains "up to" 10% over RPL-R with some tests in the mid single digits range. It's more realistic right?

There are some other claims. Current boost speed projections are 5.2 Ghz for 28W and 5.4 Ghz for 45W. Another claim: MTL is projected to consume 30-45% less energy than RPL-R at same performance below 45W and it launches between August-October.

As for Arrow Lake he says that both mobile and desktop will launch in Q4 2024. Mobile uses 20A whereas desktop uses TSMC N3+N3E. Recent 6+8 vs 6+8 benchmarks show ARL with 30% higher ST and 40% higher mixed average over MTL.

I don't know why people still listen to that guy but ~10% sounds fair. I certainly do not expect ARL to hit 30-40%. That is just a huge amount that we don't see anymore. Zen hit above that but largely because it was compared to a very lackluster design on an ancient node. I can't think of anything else in recent memory that got that much over its predecessor.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I certainly do not expect ARL to hit 30-40%.

Let's give Intel the benefit of the doubt and wet our floors with ample amount of drool.

 

[mikk]

I don't know why people still listen to that guy but ~10% sounds fair. I certainly do not expect ARL to hit 30-40%. That is just a huge amount that we don't see anymore. Zen hit above that but largely because it was compared to a very lackluster design on an ancient node. I can't think of anything else in recent memory that got that much over its predecessor.

I believe we will see bigger gains. The lead architect last year told "in the coming years you will see Raptor Lake and Meteor Lake and then you will see bigger and bigger jumps"


Once Arrow Lake hits the market there are 3 years between Golden Cove and the next big Cove upgrade Lion Cove. It makes it easier to achieve something bigger combined with newer process nodes. Meteor Lake is more like a tick upgrade similar to Broadwell, although the platform changes are big and 30-45% less energy than RPL-R would be huge for the mobile market.