Is it just me?

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Let's See...
1) "Collect taxes."
2) "Provide for common Defence and general Welfare."

That is exactly what the government does. It's right there in the Constitution. If you can't understand it, read it several times, slowly.

Let's flip this around. If you take this to mean that wealth redistribution is okay, name even one thing the government would be prohibited from doing under the guise of "general welfare" then.

Can you read or not?
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises , to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

So one thing the government won't be able to do, since you wanted an example, is collect nonuniform duties in the US. But it can collect taxes, which is what it's doing. Capiche?

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Let's See...
1) "Collect taxes."
2) "Provide for common Defence and general Welfare."

That is exactly what the government does. It's right there in the Constitution. If you can't understand it, read it several times, slowly.

Let's flip this around. If you take this to mean that wealth redistribution is okay, name even one thing the government would be prohibited from doing under the guise of "general welfare" then.

There is nothing the government cannot do. It has most of the weapons. If it feel so inclined the Constitution gets shredded by martial law.

This was left intentionally vague, and that is part of the strength of the Constitution. The Founders had to know when they worded it this way that the term "general welfare" would be interpreted differently in different situations. The intent of "general welfare" seems pretty clear though. Which of the Founding Fathers would want to throw the people to the wolves and make us like so many South American countries? Do you think that was original intent? I think not.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

Wrong, they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone - including future generations.
The contempt I have for my fellow Americans is when they believe they are entitled to other people's wealth.

CsG

 

[glenn1]

Can you read or not?
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises , to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

So one thing the government won't be able to do, since you wanted an example, is collect nonuniform duties in the US. But it can collect taxes, which is what it's doing. Capiche?

Ironic (and sad) you accuse me of not being able to read when you answered a completely different question than the one I asked. Pick something, anything you oppose politically that's not just simply another clause in the Constitution. Gay marriage, social security reform, stem cell research, holding detainees in Gitmo, anything at all. Then ask yourself why I couldn't support it on "general welfare" grounds.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

Wrong, they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone - including future generations.
The contempt I have for my fellow Americans is when they believe they are entitled to other people's wealth.

CsG

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

Wrong, they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone - including future generations.
The contempt I have for my fellow Americans is when they believe they are entitled to other people's wealth.

CsG

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

Actually people in the past and current are getting more than they paid in.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Can you read or not?
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises , to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

So one thing the government won't be able to do, since you wanted an example, is collect nonuniform duties in the US. But it can collect taxes, which is what it's doing. Capiche?

Ironic (and sad) you accuse me of not being able to read when you answered a completely different question than the one I asked. Pick something, anything you oppose politically that's not just simply another clause in the Constitution. Gay marriage, social security reform, stem cell research, holding detainees in Gitmo, anything at all. Then ask yourself why I couldn't support it on "general welfare" grounds.

I answered your question exactly and to a tee.
Q: "name even one thing the government would be prohibited from doing under the guise of "general welfare" then."
A: "one thing the government won't be able to do, since you wanted an example, is collect nonuniform duties in the US." It says so in the Constitution.
You wanted me to name one thing, I named it.
Which continues to put your reading skills under further suspicion.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

Wrong, they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone - including future generations.
The contempt I have for my fellow Americans is when they believe they are entitled to other people's wealth.

CsG

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

No, their money has been spent - on them and by them.

I can't wait to hand my kids their college fund when they go to college. Won't their faces be filled with joy when they see all the money I've put in there for them...ofcourse it's all just IOUs I've written to myself since they begged for this, that, and other things during their childhood that I tapped into the fund for.

:laugh:

CsG

 

[glenn1]

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

A trust fund of IOUs the government owes and is payable to itself? That's would like you setting up a "retirement fund" that consisted of writing a note saying "I've spent this money already, but when I turn 65 I'm going to pay myself $1 million" and counting the letter you wrote as an asset.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

Wrong, they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone - including future generations.
The contempt I have for my fellow Americans is when they believe they are entitled to other people's wealth.

CsG

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

Actually people in the past and current are getting more than they paid in.

Really, and that's why there is a trustfund and a surplus.
Not so good with arithmetic, are we?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: glenn1
If he could "renege the New Deal" in a way which is equitable to all it would be the greatest achievement in the history of the Republic.

No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

Ronald Reagan October 27, 1964

Let's hope when the end comes - the one presiding pulls this quote as a victory quote.

CsG

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Second Inaugural Address January 20, 1937

Put in sig for your future reference

I'm not a socialist because I think people should be responsible for themselves and their families, so no thanks. Maybe someday we'll ween people off the National teet...

CsG

It has been tried and resulted in the Great Depression.
Americans didn't like it very much, hence the New Deal and Social Security.

So they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone else... wasn't that awful nice of them.:|

CsG

They voted themselves into their own pocketbooks. They paid Income taxes, and Payroll taxes. Your contempt for your fellow Americans is amusing.

Wrong, they voted themselves into the pocketbook of everyone - including future generations.
The contempt I have for my fellow Americans is when they believe they are entitled to other people's wealth.

CsG

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

Actually people in the past and current are getting more than they paid in.

I can accept that. I am beyond the income cap in SS taxes. It would be ok with me to raise them and take more out to fund the system. Would it hurt me? Not really. Not that the money doesnt matter, I am not that well off, but if it helps others that's a price I am willing to pay not to live in a two class society.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

A trust fund of IOUs the government owes and is payable to itself? That's would like you setting up a "retirement fund" that consisted of writing a note saying "I've spent this money already, but when I turn 65 I'm going to pay myself $1 million" and counting the letter you wrote as an asset.

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

 

[glenn1]

I answered your question exactly and to a tee.
Q: "name even one thing the government would be prohibited from doing under the guise of "general welfare" then."
A: "one thing the government won't be able to do, since you wanted an example, is collect nonuniform duties in the US." It says so in the Constitution.
You wanted me to name one thing, I named it.
Which continues to put your reading skills under further suspicion.

Okay, fine. Since you would just continue to cite other constitutional clauses, name one EXPENDITURE which couldn't be authorized under the general welfare clause then.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: glenn1

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

A trust fund of IOUs the government owes and is payable to itself? That's would like you setting up a "retirement fund" that consisted of writing a note saying "I've spent this money already, but when I turn 65 I'm going to pay myself $1 million" and counting the letter you wrote as an asset.

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

The next time you go spend money, write the value of what you spent as an IOU and stick it in your wallet. Do you consider that an asset?

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: glenn1

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

A trust fund of IOUs the government owes and is payable to itself? That's would like you setting up a "retirement fund" that consisted of writing a note saying "I've spent this money already, but when I turn 65 I'm going to pay myself $1 million" and counting the letter you wrote as an asset.

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

The next time you go spend money, write the value of what you spent as an IOU and stick it in your wallet. Do you consider that an asset?

I asked first.

 

[Kerouactivist]

None of this matters at all anyway because christ will soon be here Sellouts

 

[glenn1]

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

Are you intentionally trying to make yourself look stupid? The Social Security Trust Bonds are not assets when the "owner" of the debt asset in question is the same entity that issued them, namely the federal government.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: glenn1

Umm, Americans have paid more into SS than they have taken out. If anything, they voted future generations into their pockets, since they left behind a trustfund of government bonds to pay for future retirees.

A trust fund of IOUs the government owes and is payable to itself? That's would like you setting up a "retirement fund" that consisted of writing a note saying "I've spent this money already, but when I turn 65 I'm going to pay myself $1 million" and counting the letter you wrote as an asset.

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

The next time you go spend money, write the value of what you spent as an IOU and stick it in your wallet. Do you consider that an asset?

I asked first.

The bonds that the goverment writes to itself, in my opinion are worthless.

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

Are you intentionally trying to make yourself look stupid? The Social Security Trust Bonds are not assets when the "owner" of the debt asset in question is the same entity that issued them, namely the federal government.

I'm sure they will falsely inflate the economy proudly though.......with the private assets upon this restructuring

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Then I shouldn't count any government bonds in my portfolio as assets?

Are you intentionally trying to make yourself look stupid? The Social Security Trust Bonds are not assets when the "owner" of the debt asset in question is the same entity that issued them, namely the federal government.

So why did the Federal government issue those bonds? Obviously the government considers Social Security is a separate entity if it collects taxes for it separately and issues bonds to it when it borrows money.

 

[glenn1]

So why did the Federal government issue those bonds? Obviously the government considers Social Security is a separate entity if it collects taxes for it separately and issues bonds to it when it borrows money.

Okay, let's say that Social Security is a seperate entity and it owns all these Special Issue Security bonds. When it comes time to redeem them, where will the money come from? The U.S. Treasury, since these bonds are a debt obligation of the U.S. Government.

Now that we've nailed that down, how is the SS Trust Fund having the Special Issue Security bonds any different than if we never issued them in the first place? The money is coming from the Treasury either way. You're just creating a piece of paper to document the future obligation, it's NOT AN ASSET. It's money Uncle Sam owes to itself.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: glenn1

So why did the Federal government issue those bonds? Obviously the government considers Social Security is a separate entity if it collects taxes for it separately and issues bonds to it when it borrows money.

Okay, let's say that Social Security is a seperate entity and it owns all these Special Issue Security bonds. When it comes time to redeem them, where will the money come from? The U.S. Treasury, since these bonds are a debt obligation of the U.S. Government.

Now that we've nailed that down, how is the SS Trust Fund having the Special Issue Security bonds any different than if we never issued them in the first place? The money is coming from the Treasury either way. You're just creating a piece of paper to document the future obligation, it's NOT AN ASSET. It's money Uncle Sam owes to itself.

But then so is me owning government bonds. My taxes are going to pay the government to pay me those bonds. It's money that I owe to myself.

 

[glenn1]

But then so is me owning government bonds. My taxes are going to pay the government to pay me those bonds. It's money that I owe to myself.

The government doesn't rely on just you to make sure the coupon on the bonds you own gets paid, you're one of 280 million taxpayers that as a whole own that debt and send in taxes to pay you the coupon on those bonds. The government is one of one entities that owe the social security debt, it doesn't have anyone else to rely on to make sure it's debts get paid. You can't own debt in yourself and consider it an asset, which is what you're treating the SIS bonds as.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally posted by: bthorny
My grandparents which lived through the depression are turning over in their graves...Bush will go down in history as the one who reneged on the "new deal"....and sold his soul to the corporate whores at the expense of the future of the people. (see SS reform)

We are very much taking a step back....

What interesting times we live in.....hopefully hope will come from something or somewhere to thwart this incredible diasease that is apparently the will of 51% of the people with a total lack of regard for at least the other 49%...


I am in utter awe at the fact that this man can be admired by anyone..




I am not an Athenian or a Greek, but a citizen of the world.
Socrates


It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind.
Voltaire

Actually, I think it is more that Bush is reneging on the Great Society.