Is the confederate flag racist?

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: SuperTool
No more than the Nazi flag is antisemitic.

The swastika is actually an Indian symbol, that was bastardized by the Nazi party

The symbol you are refering to is a backwards swastika. Very similar but completely different at the same time.

 

[0roo0roo]

its pointless to look at symbols in literal vacumns in order to disregard their real meanings. its like the antigay bigot who claims he's not a homophobe, because how can he be afraid of man

 

[amoeba]

I'm done. I can't argue with people who believe that the constitution guarantees secession from the union or rebellion against the union.

If you truly believe the constitution guarantees this then it erodes my whole argument that a government institution shouldn't keep a symbol of rebellion to represent themselves.



Before I go though, I'll throw up one more scenario.

What if say the state of california decided to make their state flag a picture of the burning towers with the words fvck america below, would that be ok?

 

[Scarpozzi]

I'm in TN... The confederate flag isn't racist. HOWEVER, the people that wave them continuously may be. There are some people who like to identify with the "white trash" southern pride mentality. It's basically the idea that you get cheap beer and cheap women and have a good time. The flag is just something to wave and hang on your trailer to make you stand out from the people with more money than you.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Cogman
If I remember Correctly, the Cival war was not about the abolishment of slavery. The abolishment of slavery was the Proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

Wow, someone with independent thought that was not brainwashed by liberal history books and you are not a Southerner....:Q

LOL! That's a piece of work!

I went 14 years at a christian school only to go to one of those evil public universities spewing their liberal propaganda to find out that the Civil War was actually about secession not slavery. But what do those pompous, liberal profs know?

:roll:

Goody goody. How bout a round of name that author...

"Any people whatsoever have the right to abolish the existing government and form a new one that suits them better. This is a valuable, a most sacred right." said in 1848

In case you need a hint, it came from one of the greatest hypocrites of that time period...

Lincoln, hypocrite.... Not necessarily.

I don't know what you're replying to...

It is FACT that the Civil War was about secession... not slavery. There were 'Northern' states that had slaves yet they were part of the Union.

Are we arguing just to argue or what?

In 1858 at a debate with Stephen A. Douglas, Lincoln said the following, "In regard to the Fugitive Slave Law, I have never hesitated to say, and I do not now hesitate to say, that I think, under the Constitution of the United States, the people of the Southern States are entitled to a Congressional Fugitive Slave Law. Having said that, I have had nothing to say in regard to the existing Fugitve Slave Law than that I think it should have been framed so as to be free from some of the objections that pertain to it, without lessening its efficiency. And inasmuch as we are not now in an agitation in regard to an alteration or modification of that law, I would not be the man to introduce it as a new subject of agitation upon the general question of slavery. "

Hail to the Father of the Emancipation Proclamation...how he read it with a straight face I have no idea...

If it were to occur today, he would be accused of being a vote whore

Indeed.

 

[amoeba]

I don't know what you people are talking about.

If flip flopping was what Lincoln needed to do to get elected, then thats what he did. Maybe you are right that if he ran under an antislavery platform, he wouldn't have been elected.

Regardless, he still ended slavery, a vile institution regardless of how big a majority of americans agreed with it at the time.

 

[Slikkster]

You know, I noticed when in the service that there's still this festering southern pride thing happening, even to this day. No one I know from the "North" ever gives the Civil War a second thought. But for southerners (who go back many generations), it still exists, like part of their culture was ripped from them, and it's a wound that never healed. Who would have thought that terms like "Yank" even existed anymore in today's America? But, they do.

I think it's really a sense of insecurity and lack of cultural self-worth at play. It's over. The so-called South lost. But we all won. It's important to remember whence you came. But it's also important to remember who you are. We're Americans. Be proud of that. For those reading this as citizens of the USA, if you want to display a flag, why not do something novel and display the American flag? That's who you are.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: amoeba
I don't know what you people are talking about.

If flip flopping was what Lincoln needed to do to get elected, then thats what he did. Maybe you are right that if he ran under an antislavery platform, he wouldn't have been elected.

Regardless, he still ended slavery, a vile institution regardless of how big a majority of americans agreed with it at the time.

Lincoln was willing to accept it as a required political evil in the South only. His party was trying to avoid expansion of slavery out west into Federal territory and the new states.

For various reasons I feel that slavery is an inseparable cause of the Civil War, but not the only one.

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: amoeba
I don't know what you people are talking about.

If flip flopping was what Lincoln needed to do to get elected, then thats what he did. Maybe you are right that if he ran under an antislavery platform, he wouldn't have been elected.

Regardless, he still ended slavery, a vile institution regardless of how big a majority of americans agreed with it at the time.

Lincoln was willing to accept it as a required political evil in the South only. His party was trying to avoid expansion of slavery out west into Federal territory and the new states.

For various reasons I feel that slavery is an inseparable cause of the Civil War, but not the only one.

Thats fine, I agree with you. In my opinion, slavery makes up maybe 1/4 of the cause of the CIvil war.

Regardless, I find it tiring to see who these people who villainize Lincoln because he changed his stance on slavery.

It is easy for us nowadays to go back and criticize the decisions of our leaders at that time without an idea of the society and political environment of the period.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: amoeba

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: amoeba
I don't know what you people are talking about.

If flip flopping was what Lincoln needed to do to get elected, then thats what he did. Maybe you are right that if he ran under an antislavery platform, he wouldn't have been elected.

Regardless, he still ended slavery, a vile institution regardless of how big a majority of americans agreed with it at the time.

Lincoln was willing to accept it as a required political evil in the South only. His party was trying to avoid expansion of slavery out west into Federal territory and the new states.

For various reasons I feel that slavery is an inseparable cause of the Civil War, but not the only one.

Thats fine, I agree with you. In my opinion, slavery makes up maybe 1/4 of the cause of the CIvil war.

Regardless, I find it tiring to see who these people who villainize Lincoln because he changed his stance on slavery.

It is easy for us nowadays to go back and criticize the decisions of our leaders at that time without an idea of the society and political environment of the period.

Once the war erupted there was no point in playing politics with the issue anymore. The point had become moot, with the exception of the border states who's favor he still needed to carry until a favorable outcome for the Union was assured.

Slavery managed to create a hell of a lot of friction inside the Legislative branch before the war.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Not inherently racist.....but in poor taste.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Perhaps the hypocrisy is the crime of conscience. Maybe he came to realization that the black man shouldn't be treated as 3/5 of a person?

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Slikkster

You know, I noticed when in the service that there's still this festering southern pride thing happening, even to this day. No one I know from the "North" ever gives the Civil War a second thought. But for southerners (who go back many generations), it still exists, like part of their culture was ripped from them, and it's a wound that never healed. Who would have thought that terms like "Yank" even existed anymore in today's America? But, they do.

I think it's really a sense of insecurity and lack of cultural self-worth at play. It's over. The so-called South lost. But we all won. It's important to remember whence you came. But it's also important to remember who you are. We're Americans. Be proud of that. For those reading this as citizens of the USA, if you want to display a flag, why not do something novel and display the American flag? That's who you are.

Just playing devils advocate here...You say there is a problem with Southerners living in the past by displaying the confederate flag....What do you say of African Americans who could not trace their lineage back to Africa wearing red, green and black and celebrating Kwanzaa? *



*I know we all came from Africa so yes, but I'm talking about people that could not tell you anything past their living family members. Also, there is nothing wrong with it. I think it looks alot better than Kid Nucklehead wearing an american flag poncho.

 

I can't believe you people find reasons to keep this thread going.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: SampSon
I can't believe you people find reasons to keep this thread going.

There is still 5 more hours until the weekend start

 

[amoeba]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Slikkster

You know, I noticed when in the service that there's still this festering southern pride thing happening, even to this day. No one I know from the "North" ever gives the Civil War a second thought. But for southerners (who go back many generations), it still exists, like part of their culture was ripped from them, and it's a wound that never healed. Who would have thought that terms like "Yank" even existed anymore in today's America? But, they do.

I think it's really a sense of insecurity and lack of cultural self-worth at play. It's over. The so-called South lost. But we all won. It's important to remember whence you came. But it's also important to remember who you are. We're Americans. Be proud of that. For those reading this as citizens of the USA, if you want to display a flag, why not do something novel and display the American flag? That's who you are.

Just playing devils advocate here...You say there is a problem with Southerners living in the past by displaying the confederate flag....What do you say of African Americans who could not trace their lineage back to Africa wearing red, green and black and celebrating Kwanzaa? *



*I know we all came from Africa so yes, but I'm talking about people that could not tell you anything past their living family members. Also, there is nothing wrong with it. I think it looks alot better than Kid Nucklehead wearing an american flag poncho.

I have no problems with southerners displaying confederate flag. That is their god given right and protected by 1st admendment.

I have problems with official state buildings displaying confederate flags.

 

[bobbybe01]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
For most people it is just a part of history. And taking that away... well, we should not rewrite history.

Southern pride does not = racism. Racists do not = Southern pride.

No one should ever try to punish the masses because of the ideals of a few.

Should Germans have Nazi flags hanging around because it's German Pride or German History?

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Slikkster

You know, I noticed when in the service that there's still this festering southern pride thing happening, even to this day. No one I know from the "North" ever gives the Civil War a second thought. But for southerners (who go back many generations), it still exists, like part of their culture was ripped from them, and it's a wound that never healed. Who would have thought that terms like "Yank" even existed anymore in today's America? But, they do.

I think it's really a sense of insecurity and lack of cultural self-worth at play. It's over. The so-called South lost. But we all won. It's important to remember whence you came. But it's also important to remember who you are. We're Americans. Be proud of that. For those reading this as citizens of the USA, if you want to display a flag, why not do something novel and display the American flag? That's who you are.

Just playing devils advocate here...You say there is a problem with Southerners living in the past by displaying the confederate flag....What do you say of African Americans who could not trace their lineage back to Africa wearing red, green and black and celebrating Kwanzaa? *



*I know we all came from Africa so yes, but I'm talking about people that could not tell you anything past their living family members. Also, there is nothing wrong with it. I think it looks alot better than Kid Nucklehead wearing an american flag poncho.

I think they look absolutely pathetic. At least if I displayed the Italian flag it would be reasonable because I know where my great-grandparents came from and when they came, and also a little bit about them.

 

[AndrewR]

It is a symbol which has been abused by racist elements, and certainly some people use it for racist purposes while paying lip service to the historical aspects. However, the historical elements of the flag are real and undeniable and should not be ignored for the sake of a crass minority.

I went to a college which saw 10 of its cadets killed as a result of the Cadet Corps fighting as a unit at the Battle of New Market, and that legacy is a profound one where no other cadet unit has ever fought a battle as a military unit (unlike Europe, where it has happened numerous times). We had to fight to put the Confederate battle flag (not the Stars & Bars) on our class rings because certain class members thought it was racist. That galled me to no end because if you were at the school and learned the history, it was painfully obvious that the symbol on our ring was not racist any more than the Don't Tread On Me flag is anti-English. In any event, we got the flag, and others in the class could choose another design in its place.

So, in a nutshell, the historical importance of the Confederate flag, representing the war dead of the Confederate South, trumps the misuse of the symbol by racist elements for me.

Here's an analogy, though somewhat strained. I visited the Japanese war memorial shrine, Yasukuni, in Tokyo earlier this year. Enshrined within it are numerous class A war criminals. While visiting the shrine, I saw a Japanese veteran (not of WWII, he was too young though definitely upwards of 65) carrying the Rising Sun flag around, crowned with a sprig of cherry blossoms. Now, seeing as how that flag represents Japan's Imperial past and their horrific actions during WWII, I could have been offended by its display especially since as a US military member, my brothers in arms were killed in Japanese captivity with reckless abandon (think Bataan death march, among other events). Was I offended? Nope. The context of the display was not intended for offense but rather for remembrance and honor. I took it to heart in that context and appreciated this veteran's respect for his country's military traditions.

Compare that to Germany with the swastika. THAT is certainly a racist and hurtful symbol because it was the emblem of the Nazi party. The German cross, on the other hand, was the symbol of the Wehrmacht, which despite its association with Nazi Germany was a military fighting organization and NOT a genocidal movement.

Anyway, I'm rambling at 8 am on a Saturday!

 

[Orsorum]

AndrewR, as much as I disagree with you on some topics, I :heart: you!

 

[machintos]

Not racist and I am a minority

 

[huxley0]

Not necessarily but I find the way many people use the flag is inherently(sp) racist. It's not just a sign of the south and its history. Many use it as a sign of racism and being pro white and anti black

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
AndrewR, as much as I disagree with you on some topics, I :heart: you!

Um, I'm married and not into guys...not that there's really a problem with that...well, er...but thanks anyway.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I am part Cherokee. My ancestors and other native Americans suffered more than the black slaves did. The American Flag was a symbol of death and misery to them. They were raped, had their land taken, were herded into concentration camps for which there was no liberation. They were systemically eliminated. We succeeded where Hitler failed. No amount of "good" can erase that.

Yet knowing that I haven't any problem with the Flag. That was long ago, and my concern now is more current, yet still has nothing to do with the Flag.

Same with the Confederate one. It's all about how it's used now. If someone abuses a flag for an evil cause, it's that persons fault, not the flag. Let those who mean no harm display it, and those who do too, but give them the grief they merit.

 

[FinalFantasy]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
I am part Cherokee. My ancestors and other native Americans suffered more than the black slaves did. The American Flag was a symbol of death and misery to them. They were raped, had their land taken, were herded into concentration camps for which there was no liberation. They were systemically eliminated. We succeeded where Hitler failed. No amount of "good" can erase that.

Yet knowing that I haven't any problem with the Flag. That was long ago, and my concern now is more current, yet still has nothing to do with the Flag.

Same with the Confederate one. It's all about how it's used now. If someone abuses a flag for an evil cause, it's that persons fault, not the flag. Let those who mean no harm display it, and those who do too, but give them the grief they merit.

1. I am black and have native American roots also...I know both histories of my people VERY well and I would have to strongly disagree with you when you say, "My ancestors and other native Americans suffered more than the black slaves did"...obviously you did not study during your black history courses or just failed to take any courses on it because that statement is just ignorant. Both races of people suffered enormous losses and were treated horribly; you really should not have made this point, it kills the rest of you are trying to say....constructive criticism.

2. "They were raped (so were black slaves), had their land taken (blacks were taken thousands of miles from their native land...they were taken to a whole new country), were herded into concentration camps for which there was no liberation (ever here of plantations or even slave ships?)." ...just a brief history lesson.

3. "Yet knowing that I haven't any problem with the Flag (the American flag). That was long ago, and my concern now is more current, yet still has nothing to do with the Flag." --umm...maybe because America is STILL, currently a country, you live in it and you do not see people, like these idiot hicks that ride around with a Confederate flag hithced to their 4x4, proping up American flags in the name of White supremacy over native Americans.....take notes people.

I am definitely, DEFINITELY not saying that native American did not suffer or black slaves suffered more, but there are plenty of native Americans that do not like to see the American flag erected and representing the US...they hate it. You comments just reiterate the fact that the average "American" is ignorant to the REAL black history and the way things work for blacks and other minorities...not your fault though, why should you even bother learning about stuff like that, you'll never have to deal with it right!? :thumbsup:

So I guess this weekend I'll throw on my Black Panther gear, stick a Black Power/Black Panther flag on my car and ride around town....but damn, the police wouldn't like that and knowing my local police I'd probably get pulled over and harrassed since I still get harrassed when I am dressed in my business attire.

...and people wonder why there's still racism today.......ignorance