Is this lapping job adequate?

tylerdustin2008

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2006
3,436
0
76
Well if it is flat then it will be good. But thats not the best lap job. It will work just fine, but if you get a mirror finish it will perform a tad better.

Like this one....

Old e6300.
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
I've read that you don't want a mirror finish on other threads/sites, ah well, I'll go with it...
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
No, you don't want a mirror finish - you want a flat surface with a random finish. That looks like a unidirectional finish, but it'll probably work fine assuming it's flat and those fine lines (that sort of look like a fine brushed finish) aren't deep There are several fairly easy tests you can do to check for flatness. Check around in the DIY lapping guides.

.bh.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,287
1,866
126
VD --

If you look at the factory-fresh TR U-120-Extreme's base, you can see that it isn't a random irregularity caused by loose tolerances or sloppy workmanship.

The base is a smooth and uniform convex shape, with a ridge line running evenly and straight across the heatsink base. It isn't a random irregularity of shoddy machine-shop work; it is a consistent feature among all the coolers produced.

Based on discussions I've had with their tech-support, it was a conscious design decision. That is, the tech-support calls it a conscious design decision, and I call it a miscalculation or flaw in design. But, as the OP here shows, it is correctible. The convex design or a perceived need for lapping may be a factor deterring someone from purchasing the product. Even so, for the cooler that has had such rave attention at this forum for months now, there was no special lapping of the unit for the tests, and it still proved superior to the others. But something should be said about the test configuration for the Ultra-120-Extreme -- and it is really quite simple.

The Anandtech tests were made using a Core 2 Duo X6800 processor. When TR designed the cooler, they expected that users would install it so that the high-point of the convex ridge would cross over both cores. If one needed to flip the cooler around 90-degrees, the base would not contact the cap optimally, so lapping would be mandatory.

With a Core-2-Quad, it would seem that lapping would also be mandatory, for the C2Q is essentially two dual-cores placed side-by-side. Now, these remarks are just my opinion, but I've seen enough from people who've had problems one way or the other with installations showing temperatures that should've been lower, and I've watched the discussions about this as the user made progress in making the cooler work as it was supposed to work.

On the matter of lapping, smoothness and polish, let me say this.

Metals of different hardness require a different grit to make a mirror finish. A hard metal, like steel, can be brought to a mirror finish with 400 wet-or-dry. Copper is a softer metal, and to bring it to a polish, a finer grit is necessary.

A mirror finish is not necessary, or it is less necessary depending on the sort of thermal interface material used. Arctic Silver 5 is tested by the manufacturer in a layer that is 0.001 inch thick. The size of the silver particles in the paste are within a micron or so, which I think is one 25-thousandth of an inch. Similarly, for nano-diamond or IC Diamond thermal paste: the diamond particles are less than 0.6 micron in size.

The particles need to make as extensive a contact as possible with the heatsink base and processor cap. But those particles will also fill in any scratches in the base. The thermal resistance of the paste is a known -- it is a given -- and superior TIMs have very low thermal resistances, so whether the heat must travel through one particle or 50 particles between the cap and the base is not significant. Either the silver or the diamond particles have significantly greater thermal conductivity than the processor cap or the copper heatsink base.

A fine polish is not necessary, and fine scratches will collect TIM particles to leave the overall surface smooth. You have to rub the base vigorously with alcohol to remove the stain of those particles when you clean it.

The significant causes for degraded heatsink performance are air-pockets and poor contact. So a flat surface with fine scratches is infinitely superior to an irregular, convex or concave surface with a high polish to it.
 

Noubourne

Senior member
Dec 15, 2003
751
0
76
Anyone have any clues as to why the bowed Apogee performs better than the non-bowed mount? Bowed = convex for those who are clueless.

It's the same reason TR decided to create a convex base.

If you lap your TR HSF, you better lap your chip IHS too.
 

Raider1284

Senior member
Aug 17, 2006
809
0
0
Originally posted by: Noubourne
Anyone have any clues as to why the bowed Apogee performs better than the non-bowed mount? Bowed = convex for those who are clueless.

It's the same reason TR decided to create a convex base.

If you lap your TR HSF, you better lap your chip IHS too.

The bowed base performs better because the bowing puts extra pressure and therefore better contact over the cores.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,287
1,866
126
Good point.

As much as I have to say here these days, I'm always looking for advice.

Any pointers about lapping an Intel C2Q heatspreader-cap? I'd think that if you weaken the cap, you increase chances of damage to the processor due to pressure of the cooler and retention-mechanism.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,517
126
Originally posted by: Zepper
No, you don't want a mirror finish - you want a flat surface with a random finish. That looks like a unidirectional finish, but it'll probably work fine assuming it's flat and those fine lines (that sort of look like a fine brushed finish) aren't deep There are several fairly easy tests you can do to check for flatness. Check around in the DIY lapping guides.

.bh.

whats wrong with a mirror finish?

I put mirror finishes on all my cpu's and waterblocks if not bowed. The ENZO's all come with mirror finishes which have shown to perform darn well.

So why wouldnt you want a mirror finish?

Heres my Quad.
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0703.jpg
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
You lap it exactly like a heat sink, underneath the 'silver' top there is quite a bit of copper, it would take forever to sand that away.

Most of the advice I've read is..

1) bevel the edge of the heat spreader very slightly to avoid catching on the sandpaper.
2) Use a sharpie and make a grid on to top of the spreader for flatness reference.
3) Use the same technique as a heat sync for sand paper grades etc.

I would assume 800 grit sandpaper would be sufficient as the final grit, as others have stated, you don't want a polished totally smooth surface, but just flat and somewhat smooth. The thermal paste of your choice fills in those gaps like they are supposed to, if it's mirror smooth, there is no place for the paste to 'settle' so it just squeezes out the sides and it's pretty much bare metal to metal.

I've very new at this, but the above steps/method seems to be the current concensus.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,517
126
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
You lap it exactly like a heat sink, underneath the 'silver' top there is quite a bit of copper, it would take forever to sand that away.

Most of the advice I've read is..

1) bevel the edge of the heat spreader very slightly to avoid catching on the sandpaper.
2) Use a sharpie and make a grid on to top of the spreader for flatness reference.
3) Use the same technique as a heat sync for sand paper grades etc.

I would assume 800 grit sandpaper would be sufficient as the final grit, as others have stated, you don't want a polished totally smooth surface, but just flat and somewhat smooth. The thermal paste of your choice fills in those gaps like they are supposed to, if it's mirror smooth, there is no place for the paste to 'settle' so it just squeezes out the sides and it's pretty much bare metal to metal.

I've very new at this, but the above steps/method seems to be the current concensus.

Metal on Metal > Metal on TIM on Metal.

So I dont understand WHY you wouldnt want to minimize on the micro bubbles by doing so.

The thermal resistance on metal on metal is much greater. If all your TIM is getting pushed out the side, the micro bubbles are still being filled by doing so.

TIM is only needed to fill those micro bubble air gaps so you dont cook a finite area on your IHS.

So if you use like 2000grit and get the bubbles/flatness down even further, WHY is a mirror finish NOT recomended? Of course you wont see much of a performance difference between the two, But you would be required to use LESS TIM for the same job, and your performance should be still up there.

OH if your talking about using BRASSO to polish it to a mirror finish then yes, that is not recomended because the brasso will interfer with the thermal transfer, but if you got the mirror finish using 2000grit SP. Why is not recomended?
 

mjrtoo

Member
Jul 25, 2007
120
0
0
Read around the 'net, there have been tests done with this, where the cooling performance suffers from a totally flat polished surface. They attribute this to the thermal compound transfereing heat between the metals more efficiently than a direct metal to metal contact.

Hopefully some one with more knowledge pips in, I would like to know more about it. Could it possibly be because of the properties of conduction? Where heat flows to the cooler surface, and if there is a thermal paste layer between the two metal surfaces, it keeps a thermal barrier between the two, keeping the heat sync cooler than the core temps thus creating a greater 'thermal flow'?

I know just enough to get it all wrong...


 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,517
126
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
Read around the 'net, there have been tests done with this, where the cooling performance suffers from a totally flat polished surface. They attribute this to the thermal compound transfereing heat between the metals more efficiently than a direct metal to metal contact.

Hopefully some one with more knowledge pips in, I would like to know more about it. Could it possibly be because of the properties of conduction? Where heat flows to the cooler surface, and if there is a thermal paste layer between the two metal surfaces, it keeps a thermal barrier between the two, keeping the heat sync cooler than the core temps thus creating a greater 'thermal flow'?

I know just enough to get it all wrong...

Okey i think your mixing BOWing and Flatness.

Bowing is causing an artifical convex on the heatsink? err or concave. Been a while since i took physics.

This in turn allows more pressure to be pushed on the IHS of the CPU. This also allows more contact area to be secure on the block from the cpu. I have only seen 1 Air sink which has an artifical BOW and its been proven to be VERY VERY BAD. IE. TR120 Extreme.

http://i125.photobucket.com/al...orla/Thermalright6.jpg

This is mostly because of its CRAPPY mounting option. On waterblocks, Bowing has shown to provide an enormous increase. Around 4-5C on average.

Now your telling me, Metal on Metal contact will lose to metal on oil on metal contact? Unless you had a diamond waffer in between the two metals, i still dont see HOW option 2 will provide better cooling.

TIM is not used to enhance thermal trasnfer, its used to fill up the micro bubbles in between the two metals. Once again, these microbubbles will cause patches of air to cook the spots on your IHS. This in turn leads to bad performance. The same principle as bleeding in water cooling.

The article you are probably refering to is intel's article on roughness of the IHS. However, the roughness was designed and tested by intel engineers. Unless your one of them that did this test, there is no way you could mimic this. We dont even know what pattern or not they used to cause this roughness.


So someone care to show me where it says that Metal on TIM on Metal > Metal on Metal.

Because your breaking one of the laws of thermal dynamics in physics. Metal itself has much greater conductivity then any TIM you can buy in this world.

Also another reason why adding too much TIM can hurt your cooling.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
2
0
Think of a Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme. Now (ignoring concave / convex issues), imagine if the heatspreader of the processor was actually PART of the heatsink - I.E. they were forged or cast out of the same block of metal. They were ALWAYS attached to each other, never seperate. Now imagine if AFTER the heatsink-heatspreader was made, Intel or AMD "glued" the monstrosity to the processor, just like a normal heatspreader.

Which do you think would perform better, the single unit described above, or the normal seperate heatspreader, seperate heatsink, and thermal interface material?

I would put my money on option one. Why? It's a simple metal-to-metal contact; it should have superior heat transfer. I'm not a physicist, or even a major in physics, but it just seems to make sense to me.

As far as I've ever understood, thermal pastes are simply there to help fill in the microscopic (and sometimes visible...) valleys and other blemishes on the metal surface of the heatspreader and heatsink. Since the very first time I installed my own processor and heatsink, I've always used a plastic sandwich bag and my finger to smear a tiny amount of thermal paste on the heatsink and heatspreader. Using the pressure of my finger in the bag, I can basically work it in to all the tiny crevaces. In the end, the surface basically just appears dirty. I still use a credit card to scrape a small amount of the paste over the heatspreader before installing the heatsink - that way, there's a thicker layer between the surfaces, so air gaps are minimized. I've always had good temperature results.
 

Noubourne

Senior member
Dec 15, 2003
751
0
76

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,517
126
Originally posted by: Noubourne
Originally posted by: aigomorla
I have only seen 1 Air sink which has an artifical BOW and its been proven to be VERY VERY BAD. IE. TR120 Extreme.

You would have a very good point if the exact opposite weren't the actual truth of the matter.

http://www.xsreviews.co.uk/rev...t-ultra-120-extreme/4/

http://www.overclockersonline....ticles&num=1271&pnum=5

http://www.anandtech.com/casec...howdoc.aspx?i=2981&p=3

Maybe you should stick to water cooling.

UPDATE: According to one of our readers, the base of this heatsink isn?t as good as it appears. If you take the time to lap and polish the base, you?ll find that there is a slight bump in the middle which most likely points towards the heatpipes being soldered on AFTER the base has been machined. The soldering process could warp the base slightly and case this bump. Removing it apparently gives you an extra 2-3 degree difference in the temperatures.

Thats from the first article you linked me to.

The other 2 reviews dont even mention of the bowing on the heat sink.

Unless you mean that the TR120 is done by accident. Which no one can really tell, because from that picture i linked to you, its almost a perfect bow.
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,183
63
91
Originally posted by: aigomorla
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
You lap it exactly like a heat sink, underneath the 'silver' top there is quite a bit of copper, it would take forever to sand that away.

Most of the advice I've read is..

1) bevel the edge of the heat spreader very slightly to avoid catching on the sandpaper.
2) Use a sharpie and make a grid on to top of the spreader for flatness reference.
3) Use the same technique as a heat sync for sand paper grades etc.

I would assume 800 grit sandpaper would be sufficient as the final grit, as others have stated, you don't want a polished totally smooth surface, but just flat and somewhat smooth. The thermal paste of your choice fills in those gaps like they are supposed to, if it's mirror smooth, there is no place for the paste to 'settle' so it just squeezes out the sides and it's pretty much bare metal to metal.

I've very new at this, but the above steps/method seems to be the current concensus.

Metal on Metal > Metal on TIM on Metal.

So I dont understand WHY you wouldnt want to minimize on the micro bubbles by doing so.

The thermal resistance on metal on metal is much greater. If all your TIM is getting pushed out the side, the micro bubbles are still being filled by doing so.

TIM is only needed to fill those micro bubble air gaps so you dont cook a finite area on your IHS.

So if you use like 2000grit and get the bubbles/flatness down even further, WHY is a mirror finish NOT recomended? Of course you wont see much of a performance difference between the two, But you would be required to use LESS TIM for the same job, and your performance should be still up there.

OH if your talking about using BRASSO to polish it to a mirror finish then yes, that is not recomended because the brasso will interfer with the thermal transfer, but if you got the mirror finish using 2000grit SP. Why is not recomended?

I came across this article a while back at Overclockers. Makes sense to me. I stop at 800 grit.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,287
1,866
126
No offense to anyone.

Three years ago I would've taken a whole sunday morning and into the afternoon to polish a heatsink base so I could comb my hair from the reflection.

I've been through enough heatsinks -- with and without lapping -- to discover that mirror finish doesn't matter. That means I could watch football on TV and avoid the carpal tunnel.

But the OverClockers article has some important points to make about the TIM and smoothness of surfaces.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,517
126
Originally posted by: MadScientist
Originally posted by: aigomorla
Originally posted by: mjrtoo
You lap it exactly like a heat sink, underneath the 'silver' top there is quite a bit of copper, it would take forever to sand that away.

Most of the advice I've read is..

1) bevel the edge of the heat spreader very slightly to avoid catching on the sandpaper.
2) Use a sharpie and make a grid on to top of the spreader for flatness reference.
3) Use the same technique as a heat sync for sand paper grades etc.

I would assume 800 grit sandpaper would be sufficient as the final grit, as others have stated, you don't want a polished totally smooth surface, but just flat and somewhat smooth. The thermal paste of your choice fills in those gaps like they are supposed to, if it's mirror smooth, there is no place for the paste to 'settle' so it just squeezes out the sides and it's pretty much bare metal to metal.

I've very new at this, but the above steps/method seems to be the current concensus.

Metal on Metal > Metal on TIM on Metal.

So I dont understand WHY you wouldnt want to minimize on the micro bubbles by doing so.

The thermal resistance on metal on metal is much greater. If all your TIM is getting pushed out the side, the micro bubbles are still being filled by doing so.

TIM is only needed to fill those micro bubble air gaps so you dont cook a finite area on your IHS.

So if you use like 2000grit and get the bubbles/flatness down even further, WHY is a mirror finish NOT recomended? Of course you wont see much of a performance difference between the two, But you would be required to use LESS TIM for the same job, and your performance should be still up there.

OH if your talking about using BRASSO to polish it to a mirror finish then yes, that is not recomended because the brasso will interfer with the thermal transfer, but if you got the mirror finish using 2000grit SP. Why is not recomended?

I came across this article a while back at Overclockers. Makes sense to me. I stop at 800 grit.

"Why Heatsink Polishing Might Be A Bad Idea"
Simon Watkins - 5/14/01


:X 6 yr old research. What processors was he lapping at the time? P2 400? :X

Still have to explain to me why swiftech and enzo will put mirror finishes on there stuff. Lapping to a mirror finish, and polishing are slightly different. LApping till you get a mirror finish is not using any chemcials at all.

Polishing is using brasso. Which i stated was a bad thing.
 

drakore

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
449
0
0
So should i lap my CPU and TR Extreme 120? or just leave as is?

Maybe i should just solder them together for maximum conductivity.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
21,034
3,517
126
Originally posted by: drakore
So should i lap my CPU and TR Extreme 120? or just leave as is?

Maybe i should just solder them together for maximum conductivity.

get a 1 million dollar diamond waffer.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,287
1,866
126
For sure -- lap the TR U-120 Extreme.

My enthusiasm for lapping the processor cap is dampened by questions about the thickness of the metal, whether it really matters if the cap is by appearances completely flat anyway, and given use of a diamond-based thermal paste.

 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,641
12,550
136
Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck

I've been through enough heatsinks -- with and without lapping -- to discover that mirror finish doesn't matter. That means I could watch football on TV and avoid the carpal tunnel.

I'd have to say that this is the most practical approach to lapping. Mirror finishes are nice and all, and I don't think there is much harm to having one, but I they don't seem to help much. Stopping at 600-800 grit probably produces identical (if not slightly better) results.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |