Israel: We Are At War

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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
You're still here? Weren't you going to stop posting in here? Must have just been more bullshit.

Fuck off, doucheknuckle.
No, I am going to post even more. What you going to do?

The more I piss you off the more I post. Now fuck yourself.

You bullies ran off some people here with your bully tactics but that will not work on me. The more you try to bully the more I post.
 
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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Moving along the thread to actually talk about Israel's genocide. I will do my part to not take this thread off course.


Netanyahu Calls U.S. Student Protests Antisemitic and Says They Must Be Quelled​


It seems like Netanyahu is directing US policy regarding student protests. Is this not interference in US by foreign leader? And it seems like many US politicians are onboard with Netanyahu on this!

 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,680
20,052
136
Look at these morons still talking to these people like the Chinese propagandist and the Russian propagandist. This is why Democratic pseudo-intellectuals are fucking hopeless lol
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,844
8,536
136
That's a cheap attack but now we know about you. I have always advocated for peace whether in Ukraine or anywhere else. I say let Ukraine and Russia negotiate right now, but you say that Ukraine must defeat Russia. Even the Pope says "a negotiated peace is better than a war without end." But you and your fellow fanatics wish to continue fighting. So you tell me who is the genocide enthusiast - by the way, that's a terrible thing to say. Kind of surprised a guy like you who has shown restraint would use such language. The other people here I know to expect such language from.
Shouldn't you be arguing with the people that invaded a country after they promised not to invade a country, rather than arguing with the people who are saying that the people who got invaded should decide their own fate?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,948
10,081
136
I thought that the crazy right wings goto was that Soros was part of a Jewish conspiracy to rule the world (or some bullshit like that) not that Soros was antisemitic and trying to bring down Israel?

But what better way to cover up the conspiracy than to appear to be attacking the very foundation of it? Eh? Ehhh? The ultimate alibi.

Let's be honest though: The kind of crackpots who believe this BS aren't going to notice tiny flaws like the one you describe.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
136
Moving along the thread to actually talk about Israel's genocide. I will do my part to not take this thread off course.


Netanyahu Calls U.S. Student Protests Antisemitic and Says They Must Be Quelled​


It seems like Netanyahu is directing US policy regarding student protests. Is this not interference in US by foreign leader? And it seems like many US politicians are onboard with Netanyahu on this!

If you don’t like the government suppressing protests you’re going to be so mad when you hear about what Russia is doing.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
136
Shouldn't you be arguing with the people that invaded a country after they promised not to invade a country, rather than arguing with the people who are saying that the people who got invaded should decide their own fate?
With Israel @raildogg ‘s line is ‘it is an illegal genocide’. With Russia it is ‘you have to understand they felt threatened’.

When you ask him to square those two he furiously waves his hands and then blames the west.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,253
4,535
136
With Israel @raildogg ‘s line is ‘it is an illegal genocide’. With Russia it is ‘you have to understand they felt threatened’.

When you ask him to square those two he furiously waves his hands and then blames the west.
Oh come on. He’s given his answer by not answering it. Just give it up
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,001
2,255
136
re-posted from other thread

The fundamental issue there is that neither side has accepted the two state solution, or at least there has been no time both simultaneously accepted it. Sometimes it has been Israel’s fault and sometimes the Palestinians’ fault.
The PA is recognized by the US and rest of the world as the main representative of the Palestinian people and are on record as having accepted the 2 state solution for decades now. Hamas does not speak for the broader Palestinian population and are not recognized by anyone in any such capacity. They only govern(ed) an area called Gaza.

The Israelis have not and that has been quite clear for decades and with their accelerated settlements project designed to ensure the 2 state solution can never happen. And that has contributed to radicalizing the more extreme elements of the Palestinians. The Israelis see the PA as the greater threat to their Project Israel (which includes all the territories) because the are willing to make peace and is why they helped nurture Hamas into being, to divide the Palestinians.

Regardless of all that, pressure can be brought onto Hamas into accepting the 2SS or forever be outcast and pulverized by the Israelis. In fact they have given many indications over the years that they would accept it if Israel withdrew from all the Pal territories, incl once again just recently..
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
136
re-posted from other thread


The PA is recognized by the US and rest of the world as the main representative of the Palestinian people and are on record as having accepted the 2 state solution for decades now. Hamas does not speak for the broader Palestinian population and are not recognized by anyone in any such capacity. They only govern(ed) an area called Gaza.

The Israelis have not and that has been quite clear for decades and with their accelerated settlements project designed to ensure the 2 state solution can never happen. And that has contributed to radicalizing the more extreme elements of the Palestinians. The Israelis see the PA as the greater threat to their Project Israel (which includes all the territories) because the are willing to make peace and is why they helped nurture Hamas into being, to divide the Palestinians.

Regardless of all that, pressure can be brought onto Hamas into accepting the 2SS or forever be outcast and pulverized by the Israelis. In fact they have given many indications over the years that they would accept it if Israel withdrew from all the Pal territories, incl once again just recently..
Both sides have claimed at various times to support the two state solution in theory. It is when you actually hammer out the details it falls apart. Also, who the US and the rest of the world recognizes is irrelevant.

Netanyahu is horrible and has obviously made the decision to render a two state solution impossible but it doesn’t change the fact that the Palestinians had several offers for a state in the past and rejected them despite clearly being on the losing end of several conflicts.

Both sides must be held accountable, and the problem is that both sides are heavily influenced by religious fanatics who make what should be a pretty simple deal into something impossible.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,001
2,255
136
Both sides have claimed at various times to support the two state solution in theory. It is when you actually hammer out the details it falls apart. Also, who the US and the rest of the world recognizes is irrelevant.

Netanyahu is horrible and has obviously made the decision to render a two state solution impossible but it doesn’t change the fact that the Palestinians had several offers for a state in the past and rejected them despite clearly being on the losing end of several conflicts.

Both sides must be held accountable, and the problem is that both sides are heavily influenced by religious fanatics who make what should be a pretty simple deal into something impossible.
Misleading as hell. As you have seen the MSM turn on a dime at Israels bidding and misrepresent the student demonstrations on US campuses with false narratives, so you too have been duped. That view is perhaps very close to the Israeli foreign ministry's take on the matter.

The Pals were presented with virtually impossible conditions that would have included the dissection of the West Bank into separate areas surrounded by settlements making the governing of the area virtually impossible. The Pals only asked for the implementation of UN resolutions on the matter which required Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. The Israelis were never serious about the 2SS solution and only maneuvered themselves out of it with the impossible conditions imposed in a take it or leave it manner.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,550
48,992
136
Misleading as hell. As you have seen the MSM turn on a dime at Israels bidding and misrepresent the student demonstrations on US campuses with false narratives, so you too have been duped. That view is perhaps very close to the Israeli foreign ministry's take on the matter.
Huh? No idea what this weird rant is about but I have no opinion on the student demonstrations either way.
The Pals were presented with virtually impossible conditions that would have included the dissection of the West Bank into separate areas surrounded by settlements making the governing of the area virtually impossible. The Pals only asked for the implementation of UN resolutions on the matter which required Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. The Israelis were never serious about the 2SS solution and only maneuvered themselves out of it with the impossible conditions imposed in a take it or leave it manner.
I’m not particularly interested in arguing the particulars of this given that I am absolutely certain you will not change your mind but if you think the Palestinians are blameless here you are delusional.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,001
2,255
136
Huh? No idea what this weird rant is about but I have no opinion on the student demonstrations either way.

I’m not particularly interested in arguing the particulars of this given that I am absolutely certain you will not change your mind but if you think the Palestinians are blameless here you are delusional.
Because you have no knowledge of any particulars to argue. Got it.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,001
2,255
136
Robert Malley, a US negotiator on the US team that oversaw the Camp David negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinans in Camp David in 2000, wrote his impressions of what occurred in the talks in NYT:

Fictions About the Failure At Camp David

If anyone encounters a paywall for this article, the full text here:

Fictions About the Failure At Camp David

By Robert Malley

A year ago this week, President Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Ehud Barak of Israel and the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat gathered at Camp David for what, in retrospect, many consider a turning point in Israeli-Palestinian relations. From right to left, hawks to doves, comes unusual harmony of opinion both here and in Israel: Camp David is said to have been a test that Mr. Barak passed and Mr. Arafat failed. Offered close to 99 percent of their dreams, the thinking goes, the Palestinians said no and chose to hold out for more. Worse, they did not present any concession of their own, adopting a no-compromise attitude that unmasked their unwillingness to live peacefully with a Jewish state by their side.

I was at Camp David, a member of the small American peace team, and I, too, was frustrated almost to the point of despair by the Palestinians' passivity and inability to seize the moment. But there is no purpose -- and considerable harm -- in adding to their real mistakes a list of fictional ones. Here are the most dangerous myths about the Camp David summit.

Myth 1: Camp David was an ideal test of Mr. Arafat's intentions.

Mr. Arafat told us on numerous occasions that he had not wanted to go to Camp David. He thought that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators had not sufficiently narrowed the gaps separating their positions before the summit, and once there, he made clear in his comments that he felt both isolated from the Arab world and alienated by the close Israeli-American partnership. Moreover, the summit occurred at a low point in Mr. Arafat's relationship with Mr. Barak -- the man with whom he was supposed to strike a historic deal. A number of Israeli commitments, including a long-postponed Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and the transfer to Palestinian control of villages abutting Jerusalem, remained unfulfilled, and Mr. Arafat believed that Mr. Barak was simply trying to skirt his obligations. It also took a genuine leap of faith -- for Mr. Barak as for the United States -- to imagine that the 100-year conflict between Jews and Palestinians living in this region, with roots going back thousands of years more and tens of thousands of victims along the way, could be resolved in a fortnight without any of the core issues -- territory, refugees, or the fate of Jerusalem -- having previously been discussed by the leaders.

Myth 2: Israel's offer met most if not all of the Palestinians' legitimate aspirations.

Yes, what was put on the table was more far-reaching than anything any Israeli leader had discussed in the past -- whether with the Palestinians or with Washington. But it was not the dream offer it has been made out to be, at least not from a Palestinian perspective.

To accommodate the settlers, Israel was to annex 9 percent of the West Bank; in exchange, the new Palestinian state would be granted sovereignty over parts of Israel proper, equivalent to one-ninth of the annexed land. A Palestinian state covering 91 percent of the West Bank and Gaza was more than most Americans or Israelis had thought possible, but how would Mr. Arafat explain the unfavorable 9-to-1 ratio in land swaps to his people?

In Jerusalem, Palestine would have been given sovereignty over many Arab neighborhoods of the eastern half and over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City. While it would enjoy custody over the Haram al Sharif, the location of the third-holiest Muslim shrine, Israel would exercise overall sovereignty over this area, known to Jews as the Temple Mount. This, too, was far more than had been thinkable only a few weeks earlier, and a very difficult proposition for the Israeli people to accept. But how could Mr. Arafat have justified to his people that Israel would retain sovereignty over some Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, let alone over the Haram al Sharif? As for the future of refugees -- for many Palestinians, the heart of the matter -- the ideas put forward at Camp David spoke vaguely of a ''satisfactory solution,'' leading Mr. Arafat to fear that he would be asked to swallow an unacceptable last-minute proposal.

Myth 3: The Palestinians made no concession of their own.

Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises.

If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality.

The facts do not indicate, however, any lack of foresight or vision on the part of Ehud Barak. He had uncommon political courage as well. But the measure of Israel's concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point; it must be how far it has moved toward a fair solution.

The Palestinians did not meet their historic responsibilities at the summit either. I suspect they will long regret their failure to respond to President Clinton -- at Camp David and later on -- with more forthcoming and comprehensive ideas of their own.

Finally, Camp David was not rushed. It was many things -- inadequately prepared for, perhaps; too informal, possibly; lacking proper fall-back options, without a doubt -- but premature it was not. By the spring of 2000, every serious Israeli, Palestinian and American analyst was predicting an outbreak of Palestinian violence absent a major breakthrough in the peace process. The Oslo process had run its natural course; if anything, tackling the sensitive final status issues came too late, not too soon.

The gloss that is put on the past matters. The way the two sides choose to view yesterday largely will determine how they choose to behave tomorrow. And, if unchallenged, their respective interpretations will gradually harden into divergent versions of reality and unassailable truths -- that Yasir Arafat is incapable of reaching a final agreement, for example, or that Israel is intent on perpetuating an oppressive regime. As the two sides continue to debate what went wrong at Camp David, it is important that they get the lessons right.
 
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