Israel: We Are At War

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fskimospy

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Robert Malley, a US negotiator on the US team that oversaw the Camp David negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinans in Camp David in 2000, wrote his impressions of what occurred in the talks in NYT:

Fictions About the Failure At Camp David

If anyone encounters a paywall for this article, the full text here:

Fictions About the Failure At Camp David

By Robert Malley

A year ago this week, President Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Ehud Barak of Israel and the Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat gathered at Camp David for what, in retrospect, many consider a turning point in Israeli-Palestinian relations. From right to left, hawks to doves, comes unusual harmony of opinion both here and in Israel: Camp David is said to have been a test that Mr. Barak passed and Mr. Arafat failed. Offered close to 99 percent of their dreams, the thinking goes, the Palestinians said no and chose to hold out for more. Worse, they did not present any concession of their own, adopting a no-compromise attitude that unmasked their unwillingness to live peacefully with a Jewish state by their side.

I was at Camp David, a member of the small American peace team, and I, too, was frustrated almost to the point of despair by the Palestinians' passivity and inability to seize the moment. But there is no purpose -- and considerable harm -- in adding to their real mistakes a list of fictional ones. Here are the most dangerous myths about the Camp David summit.

Myth 1: Camp David was an ideal test of Mr. Arafat's intentions.

Mr. Arafat told us on numerous occasions that he had not wanted to go to Camp David. He thought that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators had not sufficiently narrowed the gaps separating their positions before the summit, and once there, he made clear in his comments that he felt both isolated from the Arab world and alienated by the close Israeli-American partnership. Moreover, the summit occurred at a low point in Mr. Arafat's relationship with Mr. Barak -- the man with whom he was supposed to strike a historic deal. A number of Israeli commitments, including a long-postponed Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and the transfer to Palestinian control of villages abutting Jerusalem, remained unfulfilled, and Mr. Arafat believed that Mr. Barak was simply trying to skirt his obligations. It also took a genuine leap of faith -- for Mr. Barak as for the United States -- to imagine that the 100-year conflict between Jews and Palestinians living in this region, with roots going back thousands of years more and tens of thousands of victims along the way, could be resolved in a fortnight without any of the core issues -- territory, refugees, or the fate of Jerusalem -- having previously been discussed by the leaders.

Myth 2: Israel's offer met most if not all of the Palestinians' legitimate aspirations.

Yes, what was put on the table was more far-reaching than anything any Israeli leader had discussed in the past -- whether with the Palestinians or with Washington. But it was not the dream offer it has been made out to be, at least not from a Palestinian perspective.

To accommodate the settlers, Israel was to annex 9 percent of the West Bank; in exchange, the new Palestinian state would be granted sovereignty over parts of Israel proper, equivalent to one-ninth of the annexed land. A Palestinian state covering 91 percent of the West Bank and Gaza was more than most Americans or Israelis had thought possible, but how would Mr. Arafat explain the unfavorable 9-to-1 ratio in land swaps to his people?

In Jerusalem, Palestine would have been given sovereignty over many Arab neighborhoods of the eastern half and over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City. While it would enjoy custody over the Haram al Sharif, the location of the third-holiest Muslim shrine, Israel would exercise overall sovereignty over this area, known to Jews as the Temple Mount. This, too, was far more than had been thinkable only a few weeks earlier, and a very difficult proposition for the Israeli people to accept. But how could Mr. Arafat have justified to his people that Israel would retain sovereignty over some Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, let alone over the Haram al Sharif? As for the future of refugees -- for many Palestinians, the heart of the matter -- the ideas put forward at Camp David spoke vaguely of a ''satisfactory solution,'' leading Mr. Arafat to fear that he would be asked to swallow an unacceptable last-minute proposal.

Myth 3: The Palestinians made no concession of their own.

Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises.

If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality.

The facts do not indicate, however, any lack of foresight or vision on the part of Ehud Barak. He had uncommon political courage as well. But the measure of Israel's concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point; it must be how far it has moved toward a fair solution.

The Palestinians did not meet their historic responsibilities at the summit either. I suspect they will long regret their failure to respond to President Clinton -- at Camp David and later on -- with more forthcoming and comprehensive ideas of their own.

Finally, Camp David was not rushed. It was many things -- inadequately prepared for, perhaps; too informal, possibly; lacking proper fall-back options, without a doubt -- but premature it was not. By the spring of 2000, every serious Israeli, Palestinian and American analyst was predicting an outbreak of Palestinian violence absent a major breakthrough in the peace process. The Oslo process had run its natural course; if anything, tackling the sensitive final status issues came too late, not too soon.

The gloss that is put on the past matters. The way the two sides choose to view yesterday largely will determine how they choose to behave tomorrow. And, if unchallenged, their respective interpretations will gradually harden into divergent versions of reality and unassailable truths -- that Yasir Arafat is incapable of reaching a final agreement, for example, or that Israel is intent on perpetuating an oppressive regime. As the two sides continue to debate what went wrong at Camp David, it is important that they get the lessons right.
Thank you for proving my point for me. I guess you learned something today!
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
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Thank you for proving my point for me. I guess you learned something today!
Fair point on the gist of the article, but what was not shown was the distribution of the settlements that would have made the West Bank impossible to govern with settlements in strategically placed points that would have killed the 2SS in no time by extremists from both sides.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
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I had hastily posted the NYT article thinking it contained this info. My bad, should have known better that their editors would have heavily 'Israelised' this version of events by leaving out vital context. After all we now know the sort of guidelines they abide by re the IP conflict which was revealed recently in leaked memos.


Barak’s offer included Israel annexing strategically important areas of the West Bank, while retaining “security control” over other parts. This amounted to restricting Palestinians from freely moving within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government.

The annexations, which would have included settlements, would have cut off the most fertile lands in the West Bank. This territory also held rich reserves of water.

The proposed annexations would have forced Palestinians to cross Israeli territory every time they travelled or shipped goods from one canton of the West Bank to another. Israel could close these routes at will.

Further dividing the West Bank, Israel would retain a network of “bypass roads” that would snake throughout the Palestinian state.


The Camp David negotiations were designed to be a temporary 'peace settlement' that would have allowed the Israelis to retake back the territory within a year and blaming the Pals for it being non-workable.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
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Fair point on the gist of the article, but what was not shown was the distribution of the settlements that would have made the West Bank impossible to govern with settlements in strategically placed points that would have killed the 2SS in no time by extremists from both sides.
You posted an article in support of your position that actually supported mine. Since you clearly thought it was credible when you posted it, has this made you reconsider your position?

My guess is no, which is what I said a few posts up.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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You posted an article in support of your position that actually supported mine. Since you clearly thought it was credible when you posted it, has this made you reconsider your position?

My guess is no, which is what I said a few posts up.
Yes it clearly supported your position. But did you read the added context in my last post which supports my position?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,834
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Yes it clearly supported your position. But did you read the added context in my last post?
Yes, I saw you trying to convince yourself that the source you chose to post was not credible.

This was my initial point that you derided. You are not going to change your mind regardless of the evidence.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,318
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Yes because the NYT, who sold us the Iraq war and is now on a mission to hurt BIden, and has crazy press room rules on how to cover the Gaza conflict, highly favorable to the Israelis, is definitely the best source.

Good luck @amenx, you are talking to a champion of useless arguing. It doesn't matter what evidence you post or what the reality is in Israel.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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Yes, I saw you trying to convince yourself that the source you chose to post was not credible.

This was my initial point that you derided. You are not going to change your mind regardless of the evidence.
Not really, the post was lacking info that I thought was there. Its was simply not enough info. Meanwhile you choose to ignore vital context that further added clarification on why the deal could not work, not just from a Pal perspective but from any clear headed individual knowing the realities on the ground.

in case anyone overlooks it:
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,834
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Not really, the post was lacking info that I thought was there. Its was simply not enough info. Meanwhile you choose to ignore vital context that further added clarification on why the deal could not work, not just from a Pal perspective but from any clear headed individual knowing the realities on the ground.
So you posted something without reading it.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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So you posted something without reading it.
I had read it many years ago and though it contained what I presumed were vital details that I had read elsewhere. My bad. But lets not skirt around the issue that I am now directing you to, or will you continue to hem and haw dwelling on my lack of proof reading?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,834
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I had read it many years ago and though it contained what I presumed were vital details that I had read elsewhere. My bad. But lets not skirt around the issue that I am now directing you to, or will you continue to hem and haw dwelling on my lack of proof reading?
You posted something because you thought it was a credible source. When it turned out to support my position you decided it was not credible.

This isn’t logical.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
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You: posts evidence that contradicts your position.

Me: your evidence contradicts you.

You: why won’t you accept evidence?!
Why do you like to argue with blinders? Why do you keep ignoring this post?

Barak’s offer included Israel annexing strategically important areas of the West Bank, while retaining “security control” over other parts. This amounted to restricting Palestinians from freely moving within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government.

The annexations, which would have included settlements, would have cut off the most fertile lands in the West Bank. This territory also held rich reserves of water.

The proposed annexations would have forced Palestinians to cross Israeli territory every time they travelled or shipped goods from one canton of the West Bank to another. Israel could close these routes at will.

Further dividing the West Bank, Israel would retain a network of “bypass roads” that would snake throughout the Palestinian state.


The Camp David negotiations were designed to be a temporary 'peace settlement' that would have allowed the Israelis to retake back the territory within a year and blaming the Pals for it being non-workable.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,834
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Why do you like to argue with blinders? Why do you keep ignoring this post?
Every accusation a confession, haha.

I’m not ignoring it, I’m saying you already proved my point that you are not amenable to evidence and will never change your mind. Your source was credible until it disagreed with you, at which point it wasn’t.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,318
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Every accusation a confession, haha.

I’m not ignoring it, I’m saying you already proved my point that you are not amenable to evidence and will never change your mind. Your source was credible until it disagreed with you, at which point it wasn’t.

The NYT is a strongly Israeli leaning paper. He admitted he posted the wrong article from what we all know is a very biased source on the Palestinian issue in favor of Israel.

So now no other source is credible if it contradicts the biased NYT? THta's it, it has been written in the NYT and so nothing else matters.

What a bunch of intellectually dishonest nonsense. Typical of a pseudo-intellectual hack.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
2,396
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Every accusation a confession, haha.

I’m not ignoring it, I’m saying you already proved my point that you are not amenable to evidence and will never change your mind. Your source was credible until it disagreed with you, at which point it wasn’t.
Cant help the feeling that you are a very dishonest debater. I make a mistake with a link with missing info and offer further context in a follow up post which completely undermines your argument. But you refuse to acknowledge it and seem to be only arguing for posture and not interested in any honest discussion on the issue.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,834
51,242
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Cant help the feeling that you are a very dishonest debater. I make a mistake with a link with missing info and offer further context in a follow up post which completely undermines your argument. But you refuse to acknowledge it and seem to be only arguing for posture and not interested in any honest discussion on the issue.
People often think that I am honest and informative right up to the point where I disagree with them, at which point I become dishonest.

This is your inability to process contrary information at work.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,116
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Since much bandwidth wasted here that ppl may miss this major point that may get lost in the avalanche of disruptive posts ...

To any interested observer and knowing how Israel operates... could a 2 state solution have been a viable solution under these conditions? How long before it crumbles and the Pal state is re-absorbed into the Zio-settler project?

(Israeli PM) Barak’s offer included Israel annexing strategically important areas of the West Bank, while retaining “security control” over other parts. This amounted to restricting Palestinians from freely moving within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government.

The annexations, which would have included settlements, would have cut off the most fertile lands in the West Bank. This territory also held rich reserves of water.

The proposed annexations would have forced Palestinians to cross Israeli territory every time they travelled or shipped goods from one canton of the West Bank to another. Israel could close these routes at will.

Further dividing the West Bank, Israel would retain a network of “bypass roads” that would snake throughout the Palestinian state.


This sounds like an Israeli formula for an easy re-takeover of the Pal state soon after its established. And where Israel could then put the blame on the Pals for it not working out. I do not think any people on earth would accept such conditions for a state while knowing they would be much worse off for it and giving the occupier the perfect excuse to take it back and blame them for its failure. Was it right to say both sides are to blame for not accepting the 2 state solution?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,388
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Both sides have claimed at various times to support the two state solution in theory. It is when you actually hammer out the details it falls apart. Also, who the US and the rest of the world recognizes is irrelevant.

Netanyahu is horrible and has obviously made the decision to render a two state solution impossible but it doesn’t change the fact that the Palestinians had several offers for a state in the past and rejected them despite clearly being on the losing end of several conflicts.

Both sides must be held accountable, and the problem is that both sides are heavily influenced by religious fanatics who make what should be a pretty simple deal into something impossible.




I think this is true but that additional factors enter into it. There is the matter of self identification by political affiliation, politics and how peace affects staying in power, territoriality, etc.

Additionally I think Islam was built to resist Jewish fanaticism owing to how Islam was treated early on. Plus there are 6 million Jews in Israel I think, and a billion Muslims.

I hoping that maybe in 20 thousand years the fanatics, the egotistical, the irrational will have been slaughtered in so many revenge binges the genes that facilitate having those traits will have been bred out of the population and the two sides can finally make peace. Of course, I am an optimist and could easily be wrong.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,388
6,384
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You posted something because you thought it was a credible source. When it turned out to support my position you decided it was not credible.

This isn’t logical.
Look, I think you have the more factual position that owing to unexamined assumptions that ground their two positions, no possible accommodation of either side for the other was possible and that the irrationality of those assumptions is the reason neither side could meet the demands of the other side.

But if say a person wanted to argue that truth is important to justice and they were by some mistake quote without reading, the definition of truth from a 1984 dictionary of the meaning of words in that novel and it said that truth is lies, to state that they made a mistake in quoting while maintaining that truth isn't lies, in my opinion, that would not be illogical. It could certainly be seen as ironic. And while I think he is wrong it don't think it proves he is or that he can't change his mind.

One thing seems certain. People believe what they believe, Religious fanaticism is just one form of that.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Cant help the feeling that you are a very dishonest debater. I make a mistake with a link with missing info and offer further context in a follow up post which completely undermines your argument. But you refuse to acknowledge it and seem to be only arguing for posture and not interested in any honest discussion on the issue.

I think the bigger issue is he's stuck in the mindset of arguing with morons that lie like the right wingers on here, so he just defaults to endless arguing the exact same thing whilst doing his clownbaby "neener neener neener I was right and you were wrong" act because he's used to hammering a nail through his dick staring down dumbfucks like pcgeek. At this point he frankly doesn't seem capable of much more, every so often I un-ignore his posts but its almost always the same shit, 50 posts in about 3 pages of him trying to "win" arguments (who gives a shit if there's any point to the argument or anything has changed, doesn't matter much to him, he just has to win it by harping on some specific point until people stop responding so he can claim to have "won"). But I guess at least he stopped claiming that wearing masks were more harmful to kids than catching COVID, or derailing, every, single, thread by trying to push everyone into arguing housing with him.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,834
51,242
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I think the bigger issue is he's stuck in the mindset of arguing with morons that lie like the right wingers on here, so he just defaults to endless arguing the exact same thing whilst doing his clownbaby "neener neener neener I was right and you were wrong" act because he's used to hammering a nail through his dick staring down dumbfucks like pcgeek. At this point he frankly doesn't seem capable of much more, every so often I un-ignore his posts but its almost always the same shit, 50 posts in about 3 pages of him trying to "win" arguments (who gives a shit if there's any point to the argument or anything has changed, doesn't matter much to him, he just has to win it by harping on some specific point until people stop responding so he can claim to have "won"). But I guess at least he stopped claiming that wearing masks were more harmful to kids than catching COVID, or derailing, every, single, thread by trying to push everyone into arguing housing with him.
lol. Reminds me of this:

 
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