It's done- Healthcare bill passes

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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
A prediction: As the details of the legislation become more broadly understood, it will gain increasing support from the public. The Republicans are going to increasingly be seen as the liars, obstructionists, and demagogues they actually are, and their lock-step opposition to the bill is going to become the rotting albatross about their necks they so richly deserve.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
A prediction: As the details of the legislation become more broadly understood, it will gain increasing support from the public. The Republicans are going to increasingly be seen as the liars, obstructionists, and demagogues they actually are, and their lock-step opposition to the bill is going to become the rotting albatross about their necks they so richly deserve.

I hope you're right. But when pharma and insurance spent millions lobbying FOR it, it can't be good for JQP. http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/

My objections are from a simple mathematics prospective. You mathematically can't insure everyone forever under current insurance business model and drug pricing monopoly without insane costs. We need to look to Europe or Asia for successful UHC.
 
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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Finally Obama gets something done. Whether that something was good or not I don't know yet. I think the bill was not enough or in the right direction.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I hope you're right. But when pharma and insurance spent millions lobbying FOR it, it can't be good for JQP. http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/

It's funny - the evidence clearly suggests the political power of the huge industries is the problem, allowing them to get a win-win scenario whether the bill passed or not.

Yet you hear people only talk about the politicians, not the industries, as an issue.

And as you said in another post, it'll only get worse with the court ruling on donations.
 

phantom505

Senior member
Feb 21, 2001
241
0
76
A prediction: As the details of the legislation become more broadly understood, it will gain increasing support from the public. The Republicans are going to increasingly be seen as the liars, obstructionists, and demagogues they actually are, and their lock-step opposition to the bill is going to become the rotting albatross about their necks they so richly deserve.

/agree
 

Danube

Banned
Dec 10, 2009
613
0
0
A prediction: As the details of the legislation become more broadly understood, it will gain increasing support from the public. The Republicans are going to increasingly be seen as the liars, obstructionists, and demagogues they actually are, and their lock-step opposition to the bill is going to become the rotting albatross about their necks they so richly deserve.


I think just the reverse will happen. A huge amount of people think Obamacare is free health care and they don't know about penalties, fines, IRS, cost of plans etc

Wait til the 21% medicare cuts start soon (or the date gets dodged and the deficit roars) and seniors are iced out of health-care.

Of course Slim wants amnesty for his new voters and to get illegals on HC - as MD's will be retiring. It's a nightmare actually.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
This day was kind of like the movie MR SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON. Except at the end, U.S. Rep. John Boehner didn’t fall to his knees and cry "I don't deserve to be here. I don't want to mislead American's. Im an awful congressman", like in the movie.
It ended more like THE EXORCIST where U.S. Rep. John Boehner's head spins and he spews green vomit over the house.
I wonder.. if for his sake.. healthcare reform covers demonic exorcism?
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
A prediction: As the details of the legislation become more broadly understood, it will gain increasing support from the public. The Republicans are going to increasingly be seen as the liars, obstructionists, and demagogues they actually are, and their lock-step opposition to the bill is going to become the rotting albatross about their necks they so richly deserve.

Time will tell. The problem the Dems will have is when rates skyrocket. This whole process started because we need to control costs. This bill doesnt do anything of the sort. I also think once people see the legal bribery involved to get the last few on board there will be a backlash.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
I'm curious how many of the 37 states threatening to sue over it actually will. Also, how the seating will change in Congress this November. Lots of people not seeking re-election and the entire House up for grabs.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
I think just the reverse will happen. A huge amount of people think Obamacare is free health care and they don't know about penalties, fines, IRS, cost of plans etc

Wait til the 21% medicare cuts start soon (or the date gets dodged and the deficit roars) and seniors are iced out of health-care.

Of course Slim wants amnesty for his new voters and to get illegals on HC - as MD's will be retiring. It's a nightmare actually.

Please note: "medicare cuts are for current over-payments of 150% to doctors. Thats it".
Please note: "no illegals will be getting free US healthcare".
Please note: " no doctors will be retiring, maybe some insurance CEO's, but no doctors".
And please note: "fox news is not the place to get your talking points from". ... slim jim...
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
A sad day indeed -- a completely wreckless abomination passes and the usual suspects cheering it without understanding what it means. Cheer up -- at least we'll all have healthcare once we all lose our jobs.

Here's hoping that the states win their court battle.
 

Danube

Banned
Dec 10, 2009
613
0
0
A sad day indeed -- a completely wreckless abomination passes and the usual suspects cheering it without understanding what it means. Cheer up -- at least we'll all have healthcare once we all lose our jobs.

Here's hoping that the states win their court battle.


It's funny that when Obama is called a socialist a sizable crowd here gets their panties twisted yet when he does exactly what a socialist would they do cheer about it. After Slim forces crap and trade there won't be much private sector left. What is left can still be scumbagged into compliance. Dems are turning evil and America is now a socialist dump (which is what half the country deserves frankly)
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
The best part is those evil insurance companies as Obama calls them now gets the equivalent of a blank check. Guess who gets to pay the bill? Yeah those that actually pay taxes.

The hypocrites can't even remember their arguments anymore. However, I can:

1. "Health care is too expensive! Insurance comapnies are evil! Gov't will do it chepaer!". CBO shows no cost containment, onto next argument.
2. "Quality of care, costs be damned!"
3. Obama gives insurance companies 30 million gift wrapped customers. "People are dying in the streets! We have to pass it now!!!"

The stupidity is overwhelming. Here is what will happen:

1. This program will be an unsustainable clusterf@@@ like SS and Medicare.
2. The government's income cutoff on who can and can't afford insurance will likely be too high.
3. If insurance ends up losing big money, the gov't will bail them out.

Once again, those who work will be subsidizing those who don't in yet another area. Don't worry though -- I am sure guaranteed government jobs aren't far behind.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
A sad day indeed -- a completely wreckless abomination passes and the usual suspects cheering it without understanding what it means. Cheer up -- at least we'll all have healthcare once we all lose our jobs.

Here's hoping that the states win their court battle.

Very ironic Chicken Little.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
Competition.

Wait. You are saying that people who have very expensive medical conditions aren't going to have to pay through the nose because of competition? Precisely who will be clamoring to lose money? No one. It would be in their financial best interest to make it as expensive as possible to discourage their being picked.

I have to read through my Health Care Bible on this one, because even it has to have something better than that.

If you going to compel insurance companies to bear the costs of expensive treatment, then the premiums will be commensurate, or every one's premiums have to go up to compensate.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Well, we'll see where this goes. All I can say is culturally speaking we should be encouraging self reliance, not offering free passes. Then again depending on who's numbers turn out to be correct this pass may very well be quite expensive.

And yes, IMHO if you don't exercise, eat like shit and don't have a legitimate medical condition to back it up you deserve to die from a heart attack; and I don't even have to say it. If you don't think you deserve to die from a heart attack then you shouldn't be living that way. Likewise if you smoke excessively, it's perfectly reasonable to expect to die from lung cancer. Most smokers know this, but they do it anyway.

Personally I'm against anything that makes me pay for the consequences of others' informed mistakes.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,267
126
Robor is exhibit 1.

This isn't the first time this has happened. Back in the 60s when Medicare was sold, it was predicted that in 1990 the program would cost 10 billion annually. They were too low by a factor of ten.

Perhaps the politicians do understand more than I give them credit for. Perhaps they don't want anyone to have a good look and base policy on facts, because they scare the crap out of them and they don't want to be the messenger which gets shot.

Within the current lifespan of many posters Medicaid and Medicare will consume most of our GDP.

Ya, that's right. I suppose we have to include this plan now since it can't but move up that date.

Too bad no one listened to me
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,302
1
0
OH MY GOD... why even bother to post here??? (me that is)

Do you know the answer to my question or not? I am in support of a public option, btw... I just haven't been following this stuff lately so I don't know if it made it into the bill.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I'm reading here on the details
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978120546

It seems all the taxes kick in this year and actual benefits don't start till 2014 strangly. My guess to generate cash now my feeling is benefit will never arrive looking at government almost in bankruptcy right now. http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2104-How-Far-Down-The-Rabbit-Hole-Must-We-Go.html

Starting in 2014, require that most Americans have a minimum level of health insurance or else pay a penalty.



Senate bill

Penalty: In 2014, $95 a year or 0.5 percent of a household’s income, whichever is greater; in 2015, $495 or 1 percent of income; in 2016, $750 or 2 percent of income (with a maximum of $2,250 for a family). The penalty would be adjusted for inflation after 2016.



Exemptions: American Indians; people with religious objections; people who can show financial hardship; people without coverage for less than three months; households with income below 100 percent of the poverty level ($22,050 for a family of four in 2009); households that would pay more than 8 percent of their income on premiums for the cheapest available health plan.



Reconciliation bill

Would revise the penalty for some years: In 2014, $95 a year or 1 percent household’s income; in 2015, $325 or 2 percent of income; in 2016, $695 or 2.5 percent of income (with a maximum of $2,085 for a family).



Instead of using the poverty threshold to exempt low-income people, the bill would exempt households with incomes below the tax-filing threshold — $9,350 for individuals and $18,700 for couples in 2009.

Within six months, require health plans, including employer-sponsored plans, to cover children of policyholders up to a certain age.



Senate bill

Would allow children to stay on their parents’ insurance plans through age 26. Currently, states set the age at which adults can no longer be covered by their parents’ insurance.



Reconciliation bill

Would apply the requirement to cover children to all existing plans within six months, not just new plans.



Before 2014, only children who do not have a choice of coverage from an employer can stay on their parents’ plan.

Starting in 2014, provide tax credits to low- and middle-income people to help them buy insurance through the exchange.



Senate bill

Would provide tax credits, on a sliding scale, to people with incomes up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level ($88,200 for a family of four) to help pay insurance premiums and out-of-pocket costs like co-payments and deductibles.



Households in the lowest income group — those below 150 percent of the poverty level ($33,075 for a family of four) — would pay 2 percent to 4.6 percent of their income on premiums. Health plans would cover 90 percent of the cost of the benefits.



Households in the highest income group eligible for subsidies — those between 350 percent and 400 percent of the poverty level ($77,175 to $88,200 for a family of four) — would pay 9.8 percent of their income on premiums. Health plans would cover 70 percent of the cost of the benefits.



Subsidies would increase at the same rate as the increase in premium contributions from the previous year.



The proposal would limit out-of-pocket spending at $5,950 a year for individuals and $11,900 for families.



Reconciliation bill

Would offer more generous subsidies to lower income groups. Households below 150 percent of the would pay 2 percent to 4 percent of their income on premiums. Health plans would cover 94 percent of the cost of benefits.



Starting in 2019, the subsidies would grow at a slower rate than under the Senate bill.

Would not explicitly require employers to offer coverage. Starting in 2014, penalize some employers if low- and middle-income workers use federal subsidies to buy insurance.



Senate bill

Employers with 50 or more full-time workers would pay a penalty if they do not offer health benefits and if any of the workers obtain subsidized coverage through the new health insurance exchanges.



Penalty: $750 for each full-time worker in the company.



Employers with more than 50 workers that offer coverage would also pay a penalty if any of the workers obtain subsidies to buy insurance. In this case, the penalty would be $3,000 for each employee who receives subsidized coverage, or $750 for each full-time worker in the company, whichever is lesser.



Employers who offer coverage would be required to provide vouchers — equal to what the employer would have paid under the company’s plan — to low- and middle income workers to obtain insurance on their own through the exchanges. These firms would not be subject to penalties if any of the employees receive subsidies. People with incomes up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level ($88,200 for a family of four) would be eligible for the vouchers if they spend between 8 and 9.8 percent of their income on premiums.



Reconciliation bill

Would increase the penalty to $2,000 for each full time worker in the company, but would exempt the first 30 employees while calculating the penalty. For example, an employer with 53 workers would pay the penalty for 23 workers, or $46,000.



Starting in 2010, provide tax credits to small businesses that want to offer coverage. Subsidize employer plans that cover early retirees ages 55 to 64.



Senate bill

Employers with 25 or fewer workers and average wages of $50,000 or less could qualify for tax credits. Employers with 10 or fewer workers and average wages of less than $25,000 can get the full credit — up to 35 percent of premium costs between 2010 and 2013 and 50 percent thereafter. The credit would phase out as firm size and average wage increases.



The federal government would cover 80 percent of the cost of a retiree’s medical claims of more than $15,000 through 2013, with a cap at $90,000 — at which point the employer’s plan would pay the rest.



Reconciliation bill

No major changes.

Prohibit insurers from denying coverage or charging higher premiums because of a person’s medical history or health condition.



Senate bill

People with pre-existing conditions who have been turned down for health insurance could sign up for a high-risk insurance pool that would be available within 90 days and remain available until 2014. Within six months, insurers would be prohibited from denying coverage to children based on pre-existing medical conditions, from placing lifetime dollar limits on coverage and from rescinding coverage when a person becomes sick or disabled. The ban on exclusion based on pre-existing conditions would be extended to every one when the exchanges are operational in 2014.



Premiums for older people cannot be more than three times the premium for young adults.



Insurers competing in the new exchanges would be required to justify rate increases and those who raise prices excessively could be barred from the exchanges.



Insurers would be required to spend more of their premium revenues — between 80 to 85 cents of every dollar — on medical claims. According to a recent Senate Commerce Committee analysis, the largest for-profit insurance companies spend about 74 cents out of every dollar on medical care in the individual market.



Reconciliation bill

Would extend the ban on lifetime limits and rescission of coverage to all existing health plans within six months.



Would extend the ban on exclusion based on medical condition and annual limits to all employer-sponsored health plans by 2014.

Impose new fees and taxes. Curb Medicare payments to hospitals and many other health care providers.



Senate bill

TAX ON HIGH-COST HEALTH PLANS: Starting in 2014, would impose a 40 percent excise tax on high-cost employer-sponsored group health plans with premiums over $8,500 for individual coverage and $23,000 for family. The thresholds would rise each year by the inflation rate plus one percentage point. The bill would provide a special dispensation to police officers, firefighters, miners and construction workers, who have high premiums because they work in high-risk occupations.





MEDICARE PAYROLL TAX: Starting in 2013, would increase tax rate — from 1.45 percent to 2.35 percent – for individuals earning more than $200,000 a year and families earning more than $250,000.





FEES FROM HEALTH CARE SECTOR: Would impose annual fees, allocated by market share, on health care companies. Starting in 2010, drug makers would pay $2.3 billion a year. Manufacturers of medical devices would pay $2 billion in 2011 and $3 billion after 2017. For insurance companies, the fee would start at $2 billion in 2011 and gradually increase to $10 billion a year in 2017. Nonprofit insurance companies could be exempt if they spent a large share of their premiums on medical care rather than administrative costs.





FLEXIBLE SPENDING ACCOUNTS: Starting in 2011, would place a $2,500 annual limit on what people can set aside from their paychecks before paying taxes to use for health care expenses.





TANNING TAX: Would impose a 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services starting in 2010.





MEDICARE SAVINGS: Squeeze roughly $500 billion out of the projected growth in Medicare over 10 years, including $116 billion in cuts to federal subsidies for privately offered Medicare Advantage plans.



Reconciliation bill

TAX ON HIGH-COST HEALTH PLANS: Would delay the application of the tax until 2018 and would increase the thresholds to $10,200 for individual coverage and $27,500 for family. Beginning in 2020, the thresholds would be rise by the inflation rate.





MEDICARE PAYROLL TAX: Would impose an additional 3.8 percent tax on capital gains, dividends, interest and other “unearned income.”





FEES FROM HEALTH CARE SECTOR: Would delay the implementation of all fees by one to three years. Drug makers would pay $2.5 billion in 2011, $3 billion from 2012 to 2016, $3.5 billion in 2017, $4.2 billion in 2018, and $2.8 billion in 2019 and thereafter. For insurance companies, the fee would start at $8 billion in 2014 and rise to $14.3 billion in 2018, after which point the fee would rise yearly by the rate of premium growth. Medical device manufacturers would pay 2.9 percent excise tax on devices sold (excluding eyeglasses, contact lenses, and hearing aids).





FLEXIBLE SPENDING ACCOUNTS: Would delay the provision until 2013.





MEDICARE SAVINGS: Would imposes an additional $16 billion in cuts to Medicare Advantage plans, which now cost the government more on average than traditional Medicare, for a total of $132 billion in reductions.
 
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