Discussion Kids having fun kill former Southern California police chief in multiple intentional hit-and-runs

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,277
6,930
136

Anyone wants to argue you can rehab these?? @Moonbeam perhaps??

The daughter is correct that the decay of society and social media is to blame for this.

Clear cut case for the capital punishment if any.

 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,241
8,170
136
So many issues mixed up in that one. Too many to get into. I'm ignoring the racial angle and the arguments about the causes of crime in general ("it's society's fault" vs "intrinsic wickedness"? Just too big a topic).

Seems as if the victim being a former police chief is mostly irrelevant (as they clearly didn't specifically target him as an individual) _except_ insofar as it's pretty standard that police only take attacks on cyclists remotely seriously if the cyclist happens to be a cop or ex-cop. But, then again, that's how it is _here_, and the US legal system is far, far more aggressive and keen on harsh punishments in general, across-the-board, than it is here. The US is much like China, in that it depends on mass incarceration to keep the system from collapsing.

Here it's incredibly rare for a killer motorist to be punished with any sort of penalty appropriate to the crime - if you want to kill someone, make sure you use a car as your weapon, you'll just get a slap on the wrist.

Much of the blame needs to be laid at the petrol-head lobby and the sense of entitlement they imbue motorists with, and the hatred they tend to spew at cyclists. It's pretty common for high-profile media figures to 'joke' about murdering cyclists.

And, given that cars are potentially deadly weapons, they are far too easily available and insufficiently regulated. Obviously in the US you've built a country in which cars (and planes, and air-conditioning) are almost essential, but that's your problem - should have designed the country better in the first place.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,534
29,147
136
Filling one's head with a constant stream of these incidents is not good for the psyche. For every two of these there are 100s of thousands of people who would never do such things. I also know it's hard for us old people to remember what it is like to be a stupid teenager that thinks they know everything, but we all went through it. That said, these two are clearly a danger to society and should be removed from it until they are no longer a threat.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,196
28,024
136
Filling one's head with a constant stream of these incidents is not good for the psyche. For every two of these there are 100s of thousands of people who would never do such things. I also know it's hard for us old people to remember what it is like to be a stupid teenager that thinks they know everything, but we all went through it. That said, these two are clearly a danger to society and should be removed from it until they are no longer a threat.
Not only would I have never considered something like this as a teen I didn't know anyone who would.

I have no problem putting them away for life. Not to get all Moonie but they need to be interrogated as to what would possess them to do this. Not for their sake but the greater societal answer.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,534
29,147
136
Not only would I have never considered something like this as a teen I didn't know anyone who would.

I have no problem putting them away for life. Not to get all Moonie but they need to be interrogated as to what would possess them to do this. Not for their sake but the greater societal answer.
I knew plenty of kids who did things that could have killed people and the only reason it didn't is they got lucky. This is worse because it's more direct, ie: they were trying to hurt people. They clearly have issues and now that it's resulted in death there is probably a good chance they land in prison for life.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,195
9,189
136
I will have to settle down before I can respond with any degree of compassion or proportionality towards these two, but, at this moment, I am trying to avoid the "fry 'em" response and go with life without parole. I know that modern science has shown that youth are not fully formed biologically in impulse control and such, but still . . .
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,241
8,170
136
Not only would I have never considered something like this as a teen I didn't know anyone who would.

I have no problem putting them away for life. Not to get all Moonie but they need to be interrogated as to what would possess them to do this. Not for their sake but the greater societal answer.

Yeah, it often prompts the thought "what the hell were you thinking?"

The question of how long to lock people up for is something I tend to leave to others. The US has _way_ longer sentences than we do, and that seems to apply to 'white collar' crimes like fraud as much as to violent ones. Sometimes I feel we give shockingly short sentences, but the US seems to go to the other extreme.

I just think whatever is decided, it should be _consistent_ and not vary depending on the race or other demographic category of the perp (one thing that annoys me is that while sentences for most crimes have gotten longer here in recent decades, those for motoring-related ones have gotten shorter).

The most pressing question usually seems to me to be "how did they get this way?". Most of all when the perpetrators are young.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,196
28,024
136
I knew plenty of kids who did things that could have killed people and the only reason it didn't is they got lucky. This is worse because it's more direct, ie: they were trying to hurt people. They clearly have issues and now that it's resulted in death there is probably a good chance they land in prison for life.
I think there is a leap from doing something reckless that could get someone hurt or killed. As a kid I threw snowballs at cars while hiding behind a building. At the time I didn't consider it could startle someone and cause them to lose control of their car. This seems to be intentional attempted murder.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,277
6,930
136
I will have to settle down before I can respond with any degree of compassion or proportionality towards these two, but, at this moment, I am trying to avoid the "fry 'em" response and go with life without parole. I know that modern science has shown that youth are not fully formed biologically in impulse control and such, but still . . .

Hahaha good luck with that.. I actually held back my feelings for a whole day and a half before posting this thread and I still ended up with "fry em".

Hell I even blamed social media as the victim's daughter and wanted to cut off their fingers and thumbs so they could never do social media engagements again.

But life is choices.. when you're done with work.. you may make a choice to stop and pick up pizza on your way home.

You may make a choice to exercise with a bike outdoors.



These 2 thugs made a clear and conscious choice to steal cars and commit hit and runs repeatedly under the illusion they could game the justice system as "minors". Human lives clearly mean very little to them.

And to us dems who go far and above others in providing healthcare, vaccines to extend lifespans and quality of life of Americans more than others.. these 2 are a clear danger to Americans, our way of life and beliefs of a fair justice system.

The only answer is "fry em".
 

nOOky

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2004
2,887
1,903
136
They filmed themselves murdering someone and posted it on social media. Whether or not they intended to kill him, their intentional actions resulted in his death. The punishment should fit the crime.

As a former road cyclist myself, I don't ride on the road much anymore. There's enough distracted drivers that get away with murdering cyclists without having it done intentionally. Wisconsin is bad for that. Drivers have killed people and gotten off with "you've suffered enough" because they felt guilty they were looking at their cell phones and killed someone.
 
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allisolm

Elite Member
Administrator
Jan 2, 2001
25,004
4,361
136
I will have to settle down before I can respond with any degree of compassion or proportionality towards these two, but, at this moment, I am trying to avoid the "fry 'em" response and go with life without parole. I know that modern science has shown that youth are not fully formed biologically in impulse control and such, but still . . .


"I know that modern science has shown that youth are not fully formed biologically in impulse control and such, but still . . ."

Personally I would finish that sentence with "you've moved way past impulse control and are firmly ensconced in deliberate activity when it's your 3rd hit and run of the day."
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,196
28,024
136
Followup on this story. Originally it was not known the cycleist was intentionally hit and killed. The original news headline told story as if it was an accident. 13 days later police got the information including the recording of the perps.

Naturally that didn't stop Elon Musk and other right wing trolls spreading misinformation including racist tropes to get their base riled up.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,195
9,189
136
Followup on this story. Originally it was not known the cycleist was intentionally hit and killed. The original news headline told story as if it was an accident. 13 days later police got the information including the recording of the perps.

Naturally that didn't stop Elon Musk and other right wing trolls spreading misinformation including racist tropes to get their base riled up.
Musk keeps proving what a shallow human being he is, despite his "genius."
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,483
2,352
136
That happened a while ago, glad they found the perps. This is why I mostly bike on dedicated bike trails and sidewalks, and only bike on road if there is no other choice. I've been coal rolled, yelled at, and honked at more times than I would like, and that's people intentionally being dicks, nevermind all the distracted drivers on the roads.

As far as these teens go, as vile as this crime is, I am still against capital punishment. Once we start applying death penalty to some crimes, it will inevitably start expanding to lower and lower level crimes. I don't know if they can be reformed, in theory everyone can, and everyone should be given a chance. However, they're clearly a danger to society, so my opinion is throw them in prison until they can demonstrably show they have reformed. If that happens, then we can reevaluate, if it doesn't, life in prison it is then.
 
Last edited:
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,763
10,194
136
So many issues mixed up in that one. Too many to get into. I'm ignoring the racial angle and the arguments about the causes of crime in general ("it's society's fault" vs "intrinsic wickedness"? Just too big a topic).

Seems as if the victim being a former police chief is mostly irrelevant (as they clearly didn't specifically target him as an individual) _except_ insofar as it's pretty standard that police only take attacks on cyclists remotely seriously if the cyclist happens to be a cop or ex-cop. But, then again, that's how it is _here_, and the US legal system is far, far more aggressive and keen on harsh punishments in general, across-the-board, than it is here. The US is much like China, in that it depends on mass incarceration to keep the system from collapsing.

Here it's incredibly rare for a killer motorist to be punished with any sort of penalty appropriate to the crime - if you want to kill someone, make sure you use a car as your weapon, you'll just get a slap on the wrist.

Much of the blame needs to be laid at the petrol-head lobby and the sense of entitlement they imbue motorists with, and the hatred they tend to spew at cyclists. It's pretty common for high-profile media figures to 'joke' about murdering cyclists.

And, given that cars are potentially deadly weapons, they are far too easily available and insufficiently regulated. Obviously in the US you've built a country in which cars (and planes, and air-conditioning) are almost essential, but that's your problem - should have designed the country better in the first place.
In Oklahoma you have to give a cyclist 5 feet of clearance, but you can only be ticketed for it if you injure the cyclist.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,619
10,490
136
Filling one's head with a constant stream of these incidents is not good for the psyche. For every two of these there are 100s of thousands of people who would never do such things. I also know it's hard for us old people to remember what it is like to be a stupid teenager that thinks they know everything, but we all went through it. That said, these two are clearly a danger to society and should be removed from it until they are no longer a threat.
You can visit Fox, but don't absorb.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,533
7,591
136
I look at this and I feel rage and disgust towards the killers.
However, I understand that our society is under stress. The lives of these two were probably not great. In the cauldron of injured children will arise soulless men who seek only to watch the world burn. Hatred begets hate, and so the cycle of violence churns. My answer is simple, beyond their fate, my concern is with the rest of the children out there. Some of who will one day grow up and become just like this. My intent would be to prevent that. My advocacy is for a better society than the one we have. With a proper safety net that leaves no one behind, providing the opportunity for vulnerable people to flee bad situations. Sadly, that is not our society today, and we produce more monsters than we otherwise should.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,417
12,687
136
"Decay of society" and "blame social media"? By all means, yes, they need to be in jail, but I don't particularly believe those statements are accurate.



 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,619
10,490
136
Seems the last admin really turned up the violence dial through speech to 10, so no one should be surprised by an uptick in general violence by the population.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,241
8,170
136
Followup on this story. Originally it was not known the cycleist was intentionally hit and killed. The original news headline told story as if it was an accident. 13 days later police got the information including the recording of the perps.

Naturally that didn't stop Elon Musk and other right wing trolls spreading misinformation including racist tropes to get their base riled up.


Sheesh.

Musk clearly doesn't understand that the media _always_ play down the responsibility of motorists when they kill cyclists. Race has nothing to do with it. It's why it often seems as if we already have those "self driving cars" he makes such a fuss about. Drivers are rarely even mentioned in reporting fatal incidents involving their cars - the media usually makes it sound as if the car was driving itself or if the cyclist somehow killed themselves. Drivers are invariably erased from the picture by the motor-centric media.
 

Drach

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2022
1,097
1,739
106
I'm sad for these kids. There is so much in life that these kids will never get a chance to experience.
Rip to the bicyclist.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,195
9,189
136
I'm sad for these kids. There is so much in life that these kids will never get a chance to experience.
Rip to the bicyclist.
I'm personally astounded at the posters here (not just you) for whom sympathy to the murderers seems to take precedence over that for the innocent victim of this absolutely horrific crime.
 
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Drach

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2022
1,097
1,739
106
I'm personally astounded at the posters here (not just you) for whom sympathy to the murderers seems to take precedence over that for the innocent victim of this absolutely horrific crime.
Absolutely not. They will rot in hell in prison for the rest of their lives where they should be.
I'm just sad that they lost out on watching their first born take a breath.
Absolute waste of existence.
 
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