LCD refresh rates

fzkl

Member
Nov 14, 2004
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Can anyone tell me why LCDs have lower resolutions than CRTs? Also I would like to know how refresh rate is calculated in LCDs.

Thanks.
 

CalvinHobbes

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2004
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Jun 12, 2005
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LCD's don't have lower resolutions than CRT's, not sure what you're talking about there. My LCD's resolution is 1280x1024, bigger than any of my CRT's. LCD's usually, in fact, have better resolutions than a CRT monitor of the same size.

As far as refresh rate goes, LCD's don't have them. You see, CRT's have a dynamic image - what you see on the screen is actually being drawn many, many times each second, top to bottom, over and over again, which is the reason they have refresh rates. Refresh rates are the measurement of the rate which the screen updates itself.

LCD's, on the other hand, have a static image. What you see on the screen is there, it's not flickering, and it's not being refreshed unless something changes. It's just there. So to have a measurement of how fast it can refresh itself, it has a rating called the response time, which is (if I recall correctly) the speed that it takes a single pixle to go from black, to white, and back to black again.

CRT's don't have a response time rating, and LCD's don't have a refresh rate, so you can't really compare the two.
 

Spoonbender

Junior Member
Aug 13, 2005
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I disagree on the resolution part. My CRT can do 1900'ishx1440. Finding an affordable LCD that does 1600x1200 is hard enough. And 1280x1024 is certainly not an impressive resolution. All that means is that your CRT's suck.
 

IeraseU

Senior member
Aug 25, 2004
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CRT monitors are capable of higher resolutions, but they suffer from severe distortion at those resolutions. For instance let us examine what I consider to be a great top of the line CRT. The Iiyama Visionmaster 514 pro. The following is a quote from a PCmagazine review concerning it's performance at higher resolutions:

"The monitor is specified for a maximum resolution of 2,048 by 1,556 pixels?equivalent to four times XGA. Unfortunately, its electronics are not up to the task of such high resolutions. In our tests using DisplayMate (www.displaymate.com) at the top resolution, screen geometry was clearly deficient: Circles looked squashed, even at the center of the screen. Screen-regulation tests revealed significant image size changes depending on the screen's contents, and tests with fine lines showed that the bandwidth was not sufficient for this high resolution.

At the manufacturer's recommended resolution of 1,600 by 1,200 pixels, image quality was slightly better, but geometry problems and bandwidth limitations were still apparent. When tested at 1280-by-1024, the image quality was excellent, with sufficient bandwidth, excellent screen regulation, and much improved geometry that could be tweaked to be even better by using the on-screen menu controls. Convergence was very good, and color tracking was excellent. Moiré problems that were obvious at higher resolutions disappeared at this resolution."


This is pretty much the norm for CRT's. I know of no 19" that can display 1600x1200 without geometry and distortion problems. Keep in mind, the monitor in the review is a top of the line 22" CRT. While CRT's have higher resolutions available to them, LCD's certainly handle higher resolutions more gracefully.
 

ChuckHsiao

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Apr 22, 2005
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The refresh rate is simply how many times a second the monitor is told to draw an image on a screen. Both CRTs and LCDs have refresh rates. However, CRTs flicker their images, which means that refresh rate is very important (to reduce the effects of flicker). LCDs however are essentially electronic shutters over a fluorescent light, so each pixel stays at its current brightness until it's told to change. Thus, the refresh rate isn't as important. What is important instead is response time, which is how long it takes a pixel to go from brightness A to brightness B (used to be then back to brightness A again, but not anymore), since as shutters they take time to reach their commanded state. This does not apply to CRTs however because the image is there for less than 1 ms, with the rest of the time being black. Thus, CRTs have no properly defined response time -- they don't hold an image (other than black) for any length of time, but flash it out every frame.

LCDs can have higher resolutions (just look at notebooks). However, LCDs are best when at their native resolution, and image quality suffers at any other resolution because LCDs use fixed pixel sizes -- each shutter itself is a set size. Since it is still a pretty new industry, manufacturers are currently going for the big middle part of the market, i.e. the resolution that the average person would want. You guys might complain about not getting higher resolutions in monitors, but remember that techies are only one segment of the monitor market -- and as techies are more the type to get laptops, laptops have higher resolutions. It's simply not as profitable right now to churn out 19" monitors with really high resolutions as opposed to churning out 19" monitors with the current (SXGA 1280 x 1024) resolution.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
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I don't get any geometry problems on my CRT at 2048x1536. It is very slightly blurry, but there aren't any geometry issues.
 

lifeguard1999

Platinum Member
Jul 3, 2000
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CRTs actually have a lower resolution than an LCD. The IBM T221 22" LCD has a resolution of 3840x2400 (9 Million pixels). I defy anyone to show me a CRT that has a resolution that high. NEC showed a 20" LCD at Siggrapth this year that has a display resolution of 2048x1536.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
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Those also cost an arm and a leg though; nobody is actually going to buy that LCD for home use and gaming. The better 21/22" CRTs were pretty reasonably priced when they were still around.
 

JonnyBlaze

Diamond Member
May 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: lifeguard1999
CRTs actually have a lower resolution than an LCD. The IBM T221 22" LCD has a resolution of 3840x2400 (9 Million pixels). I defy anyone to show me a CRT that has a resolution that high. NEC showed a 20" LCD at Siggrapth this year that has a display resolution of 2048x1536.

so whats the pricing on those???
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
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This is pretty much the norm for CRT's.
Not for a good quality CRT it isn't.

I know of no 19" that can display 1600x1200 without geometry and distortion problems.
:roll:

I also find it rather amusing that they had problems with geometry until they ran 1280x1024 which is the wrong aspect ratio for a CRT and hence is exactly the resolution you'd expect geometry problems.

Either they're clueless or they're blind.
 

SonicIce

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: BFG10K
I know of no 19" that can display 1600x1200 without geometry and distortion problems.
:roll:

I also find it rather amusing that they had problems with geometry until they ran 1280x1024 which is the wrong aspect ratio for a CRT and hence is exactly the resolution you'd expect geometry problems.

Either they're clueless or they're blind.

Maybe they had black bars on the sides (or would it be top and bottom, this is confusing)
 

imported_g33k

Senior member
Aug 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: IeraseU
This is pretty much the norm for CRT's. I know of no 19" that can display 1600x1200 without geometry and distortion problems. Keep in mind, the monitor in the review is a top of the line 22" CRT. While CRT's have higher resolutions available to them, LCD's certainly handle higher resolutions more gracefully.


I don't think so, my Samsung 997DF can display 1920x1440 without any distortion and its only a mid-end $200 monitor. I would think the high end monitors would do even better.
 

VIAN

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2003
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LCDs don't have lower resolutions. I don't know what you are talking about here.

Every few milliseconds, the entire screen is refreshed at once. The number of times it refreshes is noted in Hz units. 60Hz is the most popular refresh rate for LCDs.
 

Busithoth

Golden Member
Sep 28, 2003
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This is pretty funny. My PF790 (19" Viewsonic CRT) ran at 1600x1200 okay, but not wonderfully. There was a haze around the fonts for the desktop icons, definately.
It was frakking gorgeous, though, in colors. I was always more than happy to lower the resolution on the CRT and run up the AA/AF. While I used to think I was extremely picky, in a lot of games, I was perfectly happy with this solution. That was all left behind when I switched to LCD. Still, I'm not going back, nohow.
 

kmmatney

Diamond Member
Jun 19, 2000
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I've never seen a 19" CRT with a "usable" desktop at 1600 x 1200. I guess for games you can get away with the fuzzyness, but every CRT I've ever used (mostly Trinitrons) look like crap at really high resolutions they supposedly support.

If you look at CRT specs, the specs themselves do not make sense. For instance see this monitor:

http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=688

The Dot pitch is 0.244 mm, with a 20" viewable image size.

If you do the math, to get the following required dot pitches to hit certain resolutions:

2048x1536 = 0.179 dot pitch required
1600X1200 = 0.229 dot pitch required

Both of these resolutions require a higher resolution dot pitch than what the monitor is supposedly capable of.


 

ChuckHsiao

Member
Apr 22, 2005
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Originally posted by: kmmatney
I've never seen a 19" CRT with a "usable" desktop at 1600 x 1200. I guess for games you can get away with the fuzzyness, but every CRT I've ever used (mostly Trinitrons) look like crap at really high resolutions they supposedly support.

If you look at CRT specs, the specs themselves do not make sense. For instance see this monitor:

http://www.azatek.com/details.asp?iid=688

The Dot pitch is 0.244 mm, with a 20" viewable image size.

If you do the math, to get the following required dot pitches to hit certain resolutions:

2048x1536 = 0.179 dot pitch required
1600X1200 = 0.229 dot pitch required

Both of these resolutions require a higher resolution dot pitch than what the monitor is supposedly capable of.

They probably use some form of interpolation.

If my understanding of the technology is correct, a CRT's dot pitch is measured (for shadow masks) in terms of the diagonal distance from like-colored dots (or sub-pixels), the individual RGB components. Each dot is a light-emitting unit that is fixed (in both color and size), in exactly the same way that an LCD has sub-pixels. In this way, CRTs also have a native resolution -- the pixel resolution where every pixel has a single red, single green, and single blue dot associated with it.

To display in other resolutions, CRTs (just like LCDs) use interpolation. That is, if you're running at a lower resolution, then you spread out say 3 pixels worth of data (i.e. brightness values) across 4 pixels. The interpolation algorithm used for this determines how well the monitor can display in other resolutions. Now if you want to go above the monitor's native resolution, you do the same thing -- except this time, you're squeezing 5 pixel's worth of data (for example) across 4 pixels. Yes this also means that there's some blurriness involved, because text that was originally one pixel wide now has to be a fraction of a pixel wide. Oh well. They're hoping you're not looking that closely anyway. By the way, LCDs are just as capable of squeezing higher resolutions onto the panel -- my 19" LCD at home can do 1600 x 1200 even though it's really a 1280 x 1024 monitor. I guess it's helpful to remember that the image's internal state -- how it's organized in the video card and in the monitor drivers -- is different than how the image is actually displayed on the screen. In my case, the monitor's internal circuitry is keeping track of the 1600 x 1200 image, but when it gets sent to the screen for display, it is interpolated into 1280 x 1024 to fit with the screen's set size. Fundamentally, any monitor is being displayed at its native resolution, regardless of whatever the image's resolution is; fundamentally, any monitor (CRT and LCD) needs to do some sort of interpolation work if the image resolution is different from the scren's native resolution.

In other words, the spec saying that it has a maximum resolution of 2048 x 1536 just means that the monitor's internal circuitry is capable of storing that much data. It does not mean though that that much data is what's actually going onto to the screen -- if it's not the monitor's native resolution, there's some loss of data (via interpolation) along the way.

So why are interpolation problems virtually nonexistent on CRTs, while noticeable for LCDs? After all, CRTs (like LCDs) actually fundamentally use dots of fixed size and color. The reason there are no problems, however, is that for CRTs, the dots are equal in dimension (i.e. width and height), whereas for LCDs, each sub-pixel is really narrow but really tall. This means that LCDs are fine in terms of horizontal interpolation, where each dot is less than 0.1 mm across (and Microsoft's ClearType is proof of this), but really suck in terms of vertical interpolation, where each dot is almost 0.3 mm across. By contrast, via some geometry, a CRT with a dot pitch of 0.240 mm (the specs say 0.24 mm not 0.244 mm) has dots that are 0.139 mm across, in any direction (there are 6 adjacent dots to every dot for a CRT). Simply divide the given dot pitch (assuming it's given in terms of distance from dot to same colored dot) by the square root of 3 to get the dot-to-dot distance for shadow mask CRTs. Hence CRTs interpolate equally well in any direction, hence interpolation effects are, for the most part, unnoticeable. Unless you're looking really closely, no one is gonna notice a 0.14 mm difference. For LCDs, however, the vertical interpolation distance is a matter of 0.3 mm, which is very much within the resolution of the eye at normal viewing distances, and hence noticeable. By the way, I'm guessing that this is why fuzziness exists for CRTs once you go above their native resolution -- you're basically looking for data (i.e. the vertical and horizontal lines that make up text) -- that simply isn't there, because it's smeared out due to interpolation.

Something else to keep in mind. CRT manufacturers like to stretch their specs in the same way that LCD manufacturers do. Actually, this is inherent in every industry. For CRTs, though, they'll give the spec in terms of the shadow mask (or aperture grille). However, that is a certain distance away from the screen, so in terms of what you're actually seeing (i.e. the screen image), the dot pitch is actually somewhat bigger.

Given a 20" viewing distance (I'm assuming that means 16" wide and 12" high) and a CRT dot pitch of 0.24 mm, you can figure out the pixel area via geometry to be about 0.05 mm^2, and thus there should be around 2.48 million pixels on that thing, coming out to a native resolution of about 1820 x 1365. And no that's not a regular resolution, I'm expecting there to be some rounding errors (i.e. the dot pitch probably isn't exactly 0.24 but 0.2403 or whatever, not to mention how big each dot is when it actually reaches the screen). So it's fairly similar to 20" LCDs which usually have a resolution of 1600 x 1200 (and a dot pitch of 0.255 mm with a pixel area of about 0.065 mm^2) across the same viewing area.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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I've never seen a 19" CRT with a "usable" desktop at 1600 x 1200.
I've been running my Sony G420 like that for years. It does great in games at 1920x1440 too.
 
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