Learning Solaris on a budget?

[Southerner]

x86 is great, but there are times when I can see selling something like a Sun solution that offers real hot-swap ability and has some nice features based around smart displays (like smart-card enabled Sun Rays for $350 without a monitor). It seems like a wonderful solution for larger clients.

Anyway, I'd never actually recommend a solution like that until I had some hands-on experience with the system and was confident I could install/configure the system I spec out and see the performance/availability I promised.

But I'm not about to go out and buy a $3,000 "entry level" Sun Fire V210 in order to do so.

I've found an Ultra-5 here on anandtech for cheap, and I figured it'd be enough to get a feel for Solaris itself, and might even let me get a look at Sun hardware even though it's an IDE system (SCSI is SCSI, right?).

The question is: am I dreaming? Is it possible to replace a BSD-based x86 mail/web/DB server here at the house with a low-end Sun and get a decent feel for what I'm considering speccing out to clients? I mean, will this machine be enough to plug in an NCD terminal or Sun Ray and get a real feel for smart displays on a Unix system?

If it were you, would you even go to the effort to pick up Solaris, or would you assume that Linux/BSD on Sun hardware would be a viable way to go? What am I really gaining or giving up by choosing to deploy Solaris instead of the Linux/BSD I know?

Sorry to sound stupid, but it seems like "big commercial Unix" is a whole new world, and I have a lot of learning to do.

 

[gherald]

I think you'll learn the most useful skills (overall) with Debian or Gentoo and a DIY server. Toms' most recent article is on this very topic.

But if you're set on Sun hardware, it really only makes sense if you are going to run Solaris as well. They're _designed_ to work together.

Linux or BSD on SPARC will work, but I don't think there's any compelling reason to do something so completely non-standard.

Personally I'd be more interested in Sun's new Opteron-based racks, but the cost would probably be prohibitive.

 

[Nothinman]

I've found an Ultra-5 here on anandtech for cheap, and I figured it'd be enough to get a feel for Solaris itself, and might even let me get a look at Sun hardware even though it's an IDE system (SCSI is SCSI, right?).

From what I've heard the Ultra5s are really slow, probably because of the IDE disks and the sh!tty IDE chipset Sun used back then. I have an Ultra2 but it's SCSI and SBus.

Is it possible to replace a BSD-based x86 mail/web/DB server here at the house with a low-end Sun and get a decent feel for what I'm considering speccing out to clients?

The main problem is low-end Suns are usually slower than low-end x86 boxes.

I mean, will this machine be enough to plug in an NCD terminal or Sun Ray and get a real feel for smart displays on a Unix system?

Maybe, if it actually works, make sure you check the HCL and requirements before getting an Ultra5, they're pretty old.

If it were you, would you even go to the effort to pick up Solaris, or would you assume that Linux/BSD on Sun hardware would be a viable way to go?

I run Debian on 2 Sun boxes so I know it's viable, but if you need Solaris for something then you don't have much of a choice.

What am I really gaining or giving up by choosing to deploy Solaris instead of the Linux/BSD I know?

Not much, maybe support in most cases. In the more expensive cases you lose things like Solstice Disk Suite which only runs on Solaris, if you buy it.

Sorry to sound stupid, but it seems like "big commercial Unix" is a whole new world, and I have a lot of learning to do.

The main differences are obviously the hardware is different, but not much any more and the software is more of a PITA. If you actually like the BSD userland you probably won't mind it too much though.

 

[n0cmonkey]

There are some recent articles on OSnews.com about one author's experiences with an ultra 5.

The IDE disks *ARE* slow, but making sure a fast disk in there helps a lot (speaking from personal experience, no benchmarks or anything).

The Ultra 5 is a great way to learn IMO. It should be enough to handle one of the Sun Rays, but not quickly. Enough to learn on. I've used a sunray very briefly at a Sun training center. They seemed REALLY neat, and I'd love to have some for my home. I think they could be an almost perfect for a non-wintel shop.

Over all I'd say it is worth it. Just getting used to the quirks of solaris is something you can't do on Linux or BSD. It's helped me at several jobs so far.

 

[drag]

Can't you go and get Solaris for free (well at least a free eval version) nowadays for x86?

I think the easiest would be to slap together a cheap x86 box and boot from that, using onboard stuff I suppose you could get one for around 200-300 dollars that would be 100 times faster then any low-end sparc stuff.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: drag
Can't you go and get Solaris for free (well at least a free eval version) nowadays for x86?

I think the easiest would be to slap together a cheap x86 box and boot from that, using onboard stuff I suppose you could get one for around 200-300 dollars that would be 100 times faster then any low-end sparc stuff.

I'm not positive, but I think you can get either arch for free. Or atleast use it for free for non-profit or on single CPU systems. But this isn't about speed here, it's about learning the system. And if you are going to learn Solaris, why not learn it on sparc?

 

[Sunner]

Yeah both SPARC and x86 are free.

And for the OP, I did in fact setup a SunRay-1(the one without a monitor) against an Ultra5 Worked good enough.

Not much, maybe support in most cases. In the more expensive cases you lose things like Solstice Disk Suite which only runs on Solaris, if you buy it.

DiskSuite comes with Solaris for free.

IMO what you gain with Solaris is reliability.
I love Linux and *BSD, but if my ass depended on a server staying up, I'd still rather have it run Solaris, assuming it's a SPARC.
Then scalability of course, but Im assuming you won't go buy a SunFire 6800 or something, so that might be a rather moot point

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Yeah both SPARC and x86 are free.

And for the OP, I did in fact setup a SunRay-1(the one without a monitor) against an Ultra5 Worked good enough.

That made me look on ebay. There is one on there, going for a reasonable price so far. too bad I have no money

Not much, maybe support in most cases. In the more expensive cases you lose things like Solstice Disk Suite which only runs on Solaris, if you buy it.

DiskSuite comes with Solaris for free.

IMO what you gain with Solaris is reliability.
I love Linux and *BSD, but if my ass depended on a server staying up, I'd still rather have it run Solaris, assuming it's a SPARC.
Then scalability of course, but Im assuming you won't go buy a SunFire 6800 or something, so that might be a rather moot point

I'd buy a 6800, except for that slight problem I mentioned above.

I think the sunfire line are great as far as reliability go. With all of the redundancy features built into them... Practically makes me drool, especially when you get to use a machine that has more RAM than you have hard drive space on your biggest machine at home

 

[Nothinman]

DiskSuite comes with Solaris for free.

Wonder what I'm thinking of then...

IMO what you gain with Solaris is reliability.
I love Linux and *BSD, but if my ass depended on a server staying up, I'd still rather have it run Solaris, assuming it's a SPARC.

Good thing noone has the budget for big Sun boxes right now =)

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

DiskSuite comes with Solaris for free.

Wonder what I'm thinking of then...

Veritas?

 

[Nothinman]

Veritas?

Possibly, but I swore that DiskSuite wasn't included for free. Is the included DiskSuite only a part of it? Like maybe just RAID 0? heh

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Veritas?

Possibly, but I swore that DiskSuite wasn't included for free. Is the included DiskSuite only a part of it? Like maybe just RAID 0? heh

At another job, when Sun was setting up our 4800, they did some raid5 without resorting to Veritas. So I'm guessing that was disk suite...

 

[xyyz]

the asumption here is that you want to use the box to learn solaris... not to do anything overly advanced.

to learn, that ultra 5 is MORE than ample. as a matter of fact the older solaris 8 classes used, you guessed it, ultra 5's. the older rev. A solaris 8 course books have all the examples set on ultra 5's.

i still run solaris 8 on a dual hypersparc 20, even before i did the processor upgrade, it ran fairly well. the GUI is a bit sluggish, but as you know, most admin work will be done through the prompt.

while, i haven't played too much with linux on an ultra 5, i've run freebsd on an AXi MB and i've had no real issues so far. it runs fairly well.

if you can shell out about $400-$500, you should be able to pick up a dual ultra 60.

speaking of scsi... i know that sparc HCL's are a bitch... but i also know my solaris instructor was able to get a $15 netgear nic working with a sun blade workstation. what SCSI cards will work on an ultra 5?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xyyz
the asumption here is that you want to use the box to learn solaris... not to do anything overly advanced.

to learn, that ultra 5 is MORE than ample. as a matter of fact the older solaris 8 classes used, you guessed it, ultra 5's. the older rev. A solaris 8 course books have all the examples set on ultra 5's.

i still run solaris 8 on a dual hypersparc 20, even before i did the processor upgrade, it ran fairly well. the GUI is a bit sluggish, but as you know, most admin work will be done through the prompt.

while, i haven't played too much with linux on an ultra 5, i've run freebsd on an AXi MB and i've had no real issues so far. it runs fairly well.

if you can shell out about $400-$500, you should be able to pick up a dual ultra 60.

speaking of scsi... i know that sparc HCL's are a bitch... but i also know my solaris instructor was able to get a $15 netgear nic working with a sun blade workstation. what SCSI cards will work on an ultra 5?

SCSI is tougher, especially if you want to boot from it. If you do you have to get a scsi card that is supported and supports OBP. I could install OpenBSD on an adaptec 29160, but the ultra 10 wouldn't boot from it.

 

[xyyz]

i know sun has their own cards that they markup by $400 or so. i was hoping there would be support for a run of the mill card. :/

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xyyz
i know sun has their own cards that they markup by $400 or so. i was hoping there would be support for a run of the mill card. :/

Doubtful. Although, you might be able to install one and put data on there, although you won't be able to put the OS on there.

<-eagerly awaiting an Ultra 1

 

[xyyz]

ultra 1 or the 1e?

they're nice machines. i have that as the OPBD firewall. slapped in a 4 port 10/100 nic... and it's great.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xyyz
ultra 1 or the 1e?

they're nice machines. i have that as the OPBD firewall. slapped in a 4 port 10/100 nic... and it's great.

I'm guessing it is the 1e. It's listed as an ultra 1 enterprise on ebay. Not sure what the difference is though. Also getting another sparcstation, but this one's a 20. They're being sold "as is" so I don't have a guarentee that they'll even work, but I'm hopeful

I'm playing with a new firewall machine, speccing it online. So the ultra 1 will probably keep Solaris and I'll work on a netboot of OpenBSD on the sparcstation 10, sparcstation 20, and ultra 10 (atleast until I can get new ram).

 

[xyyz]

can you put together some documentaion for netbooting?

i wanted to set my ultra 2 so it could netbood freebsd, since the SCSI stuff aint supported.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xyyz
can you put together some documentaion for netbooting?

i wanted to set my ultra 2 so it could netbood freebsd, since the SCSI stuff aint supported.

FreeBSD doesn't support the Ultra 2? Wierd. I think both OpenBSD and NetBSD do.

Yeah, when I get around to actually doing it (my weekend starts at 7am, so I might start then, not sure just yet). OpenBSD supposedly has some great docs on this, but I haven't looked at them in a while.

 

[xyyz]

well FreeBSD does support the Ultra2 and Ultra1E, but it doesn't support the buildin SCSI device... so you need to netboot to get it working. :/

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: xyyz
well FreeBSD does support the Ultra2 and Ultra1E, but it doesn't support the buildin SCSI device... so you need to netboot to get it working. :/

Ahh, that's kind of wierd. I'll see what I can dig up.

 

[Sunner]

FYI we used a Tekram SCSI card in an Ultra5 once.
It was a long time ago, but I think it was a DC390-U or whatever they're called, Symbios Logic based IIRC.

At another job, when Sun was setting up our 4800, they did some raid5 without resorting to Veritas. So I'm guessing that was disk suite...

That's gotta hurt.
But I guess the US-III's in the 4.8K can handle things a little better than the US-IIi

 

[burnedout]

I still run Solaris 8 on a dual 125 MHz Hypersparc SS20. As xyyz indicates, the GUI is a bit sluggish, but everything else runs OK. MBus cards, baby! Somewhere around here, I still got an SS 2 that I purchased during the early 90s.

Here is a link to the Solaris guide for new sysadmins. It is a good little resource.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
FYI we used a Tekram SCSI card in an Ultra5 once.
It was a long time ago, but I think it was a DC390-U or whatever they're called, Symbios Logic based IIRC.

I tried that with mine (U160 with roughly the same model # you mentioned) and it wouldn't boot from it.

At another job, when Sun was setting up our 4800, they did some raid5 without resorting to Veritas. So I'm guessing that was disk suite...

That's gotta hurt.
But I guess the US-III's in the 4.8K can handle things a little better than the US-IIi

It didn't seem to cause any problems, but they didn't let me play with it much

sunhelp.org is a great site for older Sun hardware information.