LED LCD Monitors?

[blanketyblank]

I've been waiting on this technology being put into LCD monitors, but so far I haven't seen any models coming out with it besides some really early ones from NEC.
I've seen a lot of laptops using LEDs (even cheap ones like MSI Wind), and high end LCD televisions have them but nothing for monitors.
If anyone has seen any, or knows of any news about these being released main stream I'd be interested in knowing. I want to get a good monitor for some graphics work, but I can't justify the steep price tag for the professional grade NECs.

 

[Gary Bechtold]

Samsung has the XL20, XL24 and XL30 but they are part of their professional series, so they are expensive. That's the only ones I'm aware of.

 

[Phew]

I am also curious about this. It seems like desktop computers lead HDTVs and laptop computers in other technology areas, yet the desktop LED LCDs are still not really available.

I feel like the desktop LCD monitor market is in a rut right now. All the non-TN panels have horrible input lag, so you are stuck with (imho) poor image quality if you want to play games. An LED LCD is about the only thing that could entice me to replace my old 2001fp. 24" TN panels are getting absurdly cheap though, it is getting hard to resist.

 

[ViRGE]

Apple just came out with a 24" LED monitor yesterday. It'll set you back 900 clams though.:Q

 

[DarkRogue]

HP's LP2480zx is also LED backlit IIRC.

 

[Compddd]

Originally posted by: Phew
I am also curious about this. It seems like desktop computers lead HDTVs and laptop computers in other technology areas, yet the desktop LED LCDs are still not really available.

I feel like the desktop LCD monitor market is in a rut right now. All the non-TN panels have horrible input lag, so you are stuck with (imho) poor image quality if you want to play games. An LED LCD is about the only thing that could entice me to replace my old 2001fp. 24" TN panels are getting absurdly cheap though, it is getting hard to resist.

This isn't true, I have a 3007WPF-HC and detect no input lag or ghosting at all.

 

[Phew]

Originally posted by: Compddd

This isn't true, I have a 3007WPF-HC and detect no input lag or ghosting at all.

The 3007WFP has very low input lag for an IPS LCD. It is also $1400 and too large/too high resolution for most people. The 2408WFP has almost 4 times the input lag of the 3007WFP, making it totally unacceptable for gaming. Almost every 24" non-TN panel has input lag of >33 ms.

I'd pay $700ish for an LED-backlit 24" widescreen monitor if it had low input lag. I could even swallow a $500 LED-backlit TN panel (a side effect of the cost-cutting associated with TN panels is that the backlight uniformity/bleed is often pretty poor; LED should fix this).

 

[blanketyblank]

Speaking of 30" monitors this one makes me drool:
http://www.hardware.info/en-US...d_LED_monitor_review/2
If only it weren't 4 times the price of Dell's Professional targetted 30 incher.

Apple's new release sounds like good news. $900 isn't too bad considering all Apple goods are overpriced anyways.If these get onto ebay $600 after cash back is a pretty decent price considering the Dell 2408s are already 4-500 (before cash back).
Hopefully it means that LEDs for desktop LCDs will be going mainstream soon.

 

[exar333]

Originally posted by: Phew

Originally posted by: Compddd

This isn't true, I have a 3007WPF-HC and detect no input lag or ghosting at all.

The 3007WFP has very low input lag for an IPS LCD. It is also $1400 and too large/too high resolution for most people. The 2408WFP has almost 4 times the input lag of the 3007WFP, making it totally unacceptable for gaming. Almost every 24" non-TN panel has input lag of >33 ms.

I'd pay $700ish for an LED-backlit 24" widescreen monitor if it had low input lag. I could even swallow a $500 LED-backlit TN panel (a side effect of the cost-cutting associated with TN panels is that the backlight uniformity/bleed is often pretty poor; LED should fix this).

That's a completely subjective observation. I know a lot of people with 2407/3007wpf and/or 2408/3008wpf and they game great. Input lag (and in many cases screen lag) are really overrated.

Gaming with a modern S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Phew

Originally posted by: Compddd

This isn't true, I have a 3007WPF-HC and detect no input lag or ghosting at all.

The 3007WFP has very low input lag for an IPS LCD. It is also $1400 and too large/too high resolution for most people. The 2408WFP has almost 4 times the input lag of the 3007WFP, making it totally unacceptable for gaming. Almost every 24" non-TN panel has input lag of >33 ms.

I'd pay $700ish for an LED-backlit 24" widescreen monitor if it had low input lag. I could even swallow a $500 LED-backlit TN panel (a side effect of the cost-cutting associated with TN panels is that the backlight uniformity/bleed is often pretty poor; LED should fix this).

That's a completely subjective observation. I know a lot of people with 2407/3007wpf and/or 2408/3008wpf and they game great. Input lag (and in many cases screen lag) are really overrated.

Gaming with a modern S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN.

It all really depends on the game and player. Just about all modern LCDs are going to be more than acceptable for casual games and gamers, but when input lag starts to get up there, the difference between having 0, 15, 30+ ms of input lag can actually make the difference in kill or be killed situations.

However just like how most all modern LCD monitors have become sufficiently fast for most, so has the quality of TN panels gone up to become sufficiently acceptable for applications such as gaming. Gaming on a PC and thus PC monitor is most likely going to be single user only, which effectively eliminates the biggest disadvantage of TN panels - the viewing angles.

Your statement of S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN for gaming is simply absurd, the vast majority are going to care about performance first, and quality second (this holds true for the rest of the components such as the video card, where obtaining a certain frame rate is going to take higher precedence over maintaining a certain level of AA/AF), which means most gamers are going to end up choosing TN, and just about all the most competitive gamers are going to be using TN if not CRT.

 

[blanketyblank]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Phew

Originally posted by: Compddd

This isn't true, I have a 3007WPF-HC and detect no input lag or ghosting at all.

The 3007WFP has very low input lag for an IPS LCD. It is also $1400 and too large/too high resolution for most people. The 2408WFP has almost 4 times the input lag of the 3007WFP, making it totally unacceptable for gaming. Almost every 24" non-TN panel has input lag of >33 ms.

I'd pay $700ish for an LED-backlit 24" widescreen monitor if it had low input lag. I could even swallow a $500 LED-backlit TN panel (a side effect of the cost-cutting associated with TN panels is that the backlight uniformity/bleed is often pretty poor; LED should fix this).

That's a completely subjective observation. I know a lot of people with 2407/3007wpf and/or 2408/3008wpf and they game great. Input lag (and in many cases screen lag) are really overrated.

Gaming with a modern S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN.

It all really depends on the game and player. Just about all modern LCDs are going to be more than acceptable for casual games and gamers, but when input lag starts to get up there, the difference between having 0, 15, 30+ ms of input lag can actually make the difference in kill or be killed situations.

However just like how most all modern LCD monitors have become sufficiently fast for most, so has the quality of TN panels gone up to become sufficiently acceptable for applications such as gaming. Gaming on a PC and thus PC monitor is most likely going to be single user only, which effectively eliminates the biggest disadvantage of TN panels - the viewing angles.

Your statement of S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN for gaming is simply absurd, the vast majority are going to care about performance first, and quality second (this holds true for the rest of the components such as the video card, where obtaining a certain frame rate is going to take higher precedence over maintaining a certain level of AA/AF), which means most gamers are going to end up choosing TN, and just about all the most competitive gamers are going to be using TN if not CRT.

I don't know about that. I think a gamer would like to have it all, but really most gamers just don't have the money for 30" monitors and the triple SLI gtx 280s to support them. 5-6 ms SIP panel is better for gaming though than a 2 ms TN because the way the technologies work and the way gtg is measured it is really just as fast maybe even faster in real use. The only reason I see for TN panels dominating the market is because of their price and misinformation about the response times. You're also discounting the large number of gamers who don't actually use a normal lcd monitor, but instead play on plasmas and LCD televisions.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: ExarKun333
That's a completely subjective observation. I know a lot of people with 2407/3007wpf and/or 2408/3008wpf and they game great. Input lag (and in many cases screen lag) are really overrated.

Gaming with a modern S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN.

That's also a completely subjective observation.

 

[alcoholbob]

Well packing all those LEDs into a small case and you get the same problem that plagues Plasmas and early generation LCD TVs--the generous buzzing of cooling fans. Except the LCD monitor is like 6 inches from your face.

 

[JaBro999]

I think that the upcoming Apple LED Cinema Display that was just announced will be the first "prosumer" LED back-lit LCD that falls within the budget of many people. There is no word on the panel type yet, but if it is IPS it could be quite tempting for the price of $899 (the stated viewing angle is too wide for TN).

Don't get me wrong - that's still pricey, but much more affordable than the $3500 HP LP2480zx.

Originally posted by: Astrallite
Well packing all those LEDs into a small case and you get the same problem that plagues Plasmas and early generation LCD TVs--the generous buzzing of cooling fans. Except the LCD monitor is like 6 inches from your face.

I wonder if that is true for the new/upcoming LED back-lit LCDs like the Cinema Display and LP2480zx?

I remember reading in a number of reviews that the LED back-lit Samsung XL20 was both very thick and quite noisy, but that was one of the first LED displays IIRC.

 

[blanketyblank]

I don't see why LEDs should be any noisier than a fluorescent. Supposedly they use less than 50% of the power
(this article http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/e...WS_EN/20080912/157874/ says 72%)
so I would assume that would mean they should run cooler. Laptops seem to be ok with them as well so I think there are solutions to the heat.

Can't believe how slow LED technology is catching for monitors and even projectors considering how long it has been around. I found this article while searching for stuff about that new apple monitor:
http://www.highdefforum.com/hi...-2008-report-says.html
That report is definitely wrong since most of all the sammys I see are still tubes.

 

[JaBro999]

I believe the Samsung XL20 required a fairly heavy duty fan to keep it cool, and also used a bit more power than average.

According to Silent PC review, the XL20 was hotter/noisier because of the different LEDs it contained:
"What about the LED-backlit LCD monitors on the latest notebooks that supposedly increase battery life and power demand? They are different in that use only white LEDs are used, not three different color LEDs as in the XL20."

The full Silent PC Review XL20 review includes a longer, more detailed explanation on page 5:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article784-page1.html

Again, I'm not sure if the most recent LED back-lit desktop LCD displays have the same issue, a least the ones that mere mortals can afford, which right now seems to be the upcoming Apple Cinema Display. To my knowledge, all other LED back-lit desktop LCD displays are very high end professional models. They would certainly cost much more than the very well regarded NEC display like that 2490Wuxi, which was indirectly referred to in the OP.

 

[exar333]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: ExarKun333
That's a completely subjective observation. I know a lot of people with 2407/3007wpf and/or 2408/3008wpf and they game great. Input lag (and in many cases screen lag) are really overrated.

Gaming with a modern S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN.

That's also a completely subjective observation.

Subjective that I can play the game and not have to stare straight on with the screen at the exact height at which the monitor sits?

Oh yeah, REALLY subjective. I will admit, some TN panels are better than others, but a lot of them have absurb viewing angles. That is fact, not fiction.

 

[pcslookout]

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Phew

Originally posted by: Compddd

This isn't true, I have a 3007WPF-HC and detect no input lag or ghosting at all.

The 3007WFP has very low input lag for an IPS LCD. It is also $1400 and too large/too high resolution for most people. The 2408WFP has almost 4 times the input lag of the 3007WFP, making it totally unacceptable for gaming. Almost every 24" non-TN panel has input lag of >33 ms.

I'd pay $700ish for an LED-backlit 24" widescreen monitor if it had low input lag. I could even swallow a $500 LED-backlit TN panel (a side effect of the cost-cutting associated with TN panels is that the backlight uniformity/bleed is often pretty poor; LED should fix this).

That's a completely subjective observation. I know a lot of people with 2407/3007wpf and/or 2408/3008wpf and they game great. Input lag (and in many cases screen lag) are really overrated.

Gaming with a modern S-PVA/S-IPS >>>>>>>> TN.

:thumbsup:

 

[BenSkywalker]

Can't believe how slow LED technology is catching for monitors and even projectors considering how long it has been around.

OLEDs are coming up now. A lot of manufacturers are likely in waiting mode until they arrive. They spank LCDs, even LED backlit ones, in pretty much every way save cost atm.

Subjective that I can play the game and not have to stare straight on with the screen at the exact height at which the monitor sits?

Viewing angle vs speed. When push comes to shove, I'll take speed every time in a display. The fastest TNs are still noticeably behind CRTs, S-PVS/S-IPS are slower still. Can't wait until we can get the best of both worlds for newer displays when OLEDs hit, then the only way they will be inferior to CRTs is resolution flexibility.

 

[recoiledsnake]

I am really surprised no one mentioned this Lenovo monitor http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10061685-1.html

 

[blanketyblank]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Can't believe how slow LED technology is catching for monitors and even projectors considering how long it has been around.

OLEDs are coming up now. A lot of manufacturers are likely in waiting mode until they arrive. They spank LCDs, even LED backlit ones, in pretty much every way save cost atm.

Subjective that I can play the game and not have to stare straight on with the screen at the exact height at which the monitor sits?

Viewing angle vs speed. When push comes to shove, I'll take speed every time in a display. The fastest TNs are still noticeably behind CRTs, S-PVS/S-IPS are slower still. Can't wait until we can get the best of both worlds for newer displays when OLEDs hit, then the only way they will be inferior to CRTs is resolution flexibility.

Damn it'll be another 4 years minimum before those become affordable for desktop monitors at this rate considering I haven't even begun to see them sold even professionally.

I'll admit that VA panels are slow, I currently have one and watching movies on it would have pretty bad ghosting. Which is why I got a plasma for entertainment, and just use the VA for work. However S-IPS panels should not be discounted as slower than TN just because of the reported number. In real use the newer panels are just as fast as 2 ms TNs.
Of course they are expensive, but for graphic work its worth it.

 

[JaBro999]

Originally posted by: recoiledsnake
I am really surprised no one mentioned this Lenovo monitor http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10061685-1.html

I guess I missed the announcement for this one, too.
It's funny how successful Apple can be about hyping its product lines.

In the brief preview linked above, it sounds like this Lenovo panel will be either TN or PVA based judging by the review's complaint about the monitor's viewing angles. LED back lighting implementations may come with certain advantages, but they will not magically eliminate the disadvantages inherent in the different panel technologies (TN, PVA, IPS).

As for OLED (or SED, or whatever "next gen" panel technology), I suspect that we are years away from seeing affordable, consumer oriented products show up on our desktops. OLED seems the closest, but I believe currently it is only widely used for very small mobile device displays. Also, I do not think that the OLED degradation over time issue has been fully resolved.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: JaBro999
In the brief preview linked above, it sounds like this Lenovo panel will be either TN or PVA based judging by the review's complaint about the monitor's viewing angles. LED back lighting implementations may come with certain advantages, but they will not magically eliminate the disadvantages inherent in the different panel technologies (TN, PVA, IPS).

Yeah, this display doesn't look that impressive at all. It is definitely a TN from what they descibe, especially the vertical viewing angle (VAs show shifting on midtones but don't become dark like that). The main advantage LED backlights have is their color uniformity across the screen and a wider color gamut, but the conventional CCFL backlights have improved and the difference is not as big as it was a few years ago.

As for OLED (or SED, or whatever "next gen" panel technology), I suspect that we are years away from seeing affordable, consumer oriented products show up on our desktops. OLED seems the closest, but I believe currently it is only widely used for very small mobile device displays. Also, I do not think that the OLED degradation over time issue has been fully resolved.

Last I heard, they were supposed to be introduced on mass market TVs in 2010. The blue lifetime issue was resolved quite some time ago, at least on lab prototypes.

 

[JaBro999]

Here are two new reviews of Samsung LED backlit displays (XL24 and XL30):
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...sung-sm-xl24-xl30.html

They are professional models, not in the consumer price range.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
Apple just came out with a 24" LED monitor yesterday. It'll set you back 900 clams though.:Q

That's not bad, though, given Samsung's prices. I remember when crummy 17" CRTs that had 2-foot long tubes cost over $1000.