Let's talk Keto

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,978
16,091
146
So the SO and I are currently on week 4 or so of a shift to Keto diet, pretty stringently holding to it to remain in Ketosis. Lots of meat, fats, non-starchy veggies, etc. Feeling superb, both physically and mentally. Gastrointestinal stress is gone, I don't get low blood sugar as easily as I used to (to the extent I actually get hungry before I get low now). Lost a moderate amount of weight, about a belt loop's worth, but that's less of a concern to me compared to how I feel.

I did this once before, a few years back, though I didn't know it was Keto at the time. Was following some co-workers who basically just went meat and leafy green's, no starches, carbs, of any kind. Lost an absolute ton of weight on that one (20lbs in 4 weeks, another 5 in the two weeks after).

So.. is there a reasonable argument as to why everyone shouldn't be eating this way? Should avacados not flow like water from the tap? Should corn be deemed illegal, in all forms? Someone check my privilege!
 

Nashemon

Senior member
Jun 14, 2012
889
86
91
From what I've heard and read, most people do exactly what you did. Lose 20-30 pounds then stop for years. There are several accounts of those who stay on the diet apparently get very sick from it.

It doesn't sound healthy at all to me, personally, but if it works for you go for it.
 
Reactions: whm1974

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
So.. is there a reasonable argument as to why everyone shouldn't be eating this way?

Yes: Heart disease.

Get your lipids checked regularly.

This is what I see all over the Keto world:
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/c...nel-after-eating-keto-for-almost-a-year/11698

"My total cholesterol for the recent blood work was 341 mg/dL where it’s almost always been under 200 in my past results. The calculated LDL result was 249 which was 100 mg/dL higher that it’s ever been"

There seem to be some people on Keto with exceptional genetics, that this doesn't happen to, but I wouldn't just obliviously assume you are one of them.

I also wouldn't do like a lot of the Keto community and start rationalizing away alarmingly high cholesterol values.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,978
16,091
146
Yes: Heart disease.

Get your lipids checked regularly.

This is what I see all over the Keto world:
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/c...nel-after-eating-keto-for-almost-a-year/11698

"My total cholesterol for the recent blood work was 341 mg/dL where it’s almost always been under 200 in my past results. The calculated LDL result was 249 which was 100 mg/dL higher that it’s ever been"

There seem to be some people on Keto with exceptional genetics, that this doesn't happen to, but I wouldn't just obliviously assume you are one of them.

I also wouldn't do like a lot of the Keto community and start rationalizing away alarmingly high cholesterol values.
I'm also seeing a lot of information in that link, and others on the site, regarding clarifications in what matters wrt cholesterol. I guess, what I'm getting at, is, does the additional cholesterol that comes with a Keto diet actually a bad thing? I was told, for about 2 decades growing up that fats were evil, and cereals, fruits, and grains were where it's at. Now I know what happens when you spend 20-30 years eating a diet primarily of carbohydrates.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
I'm also seeing a lot of information in that link, and others on the site, regarding clarifications in what matters wrt cholesterol. I guess, what I'm getting at, is, does the additional cholesterol that comes with a Keto diet actually a bad thing? I was told, for about 2 decades growing up that fats were evil, and cereals, fruits, and grains were where it's at. Now I know what happens when you spend 20-30 years eating a diet primarily of carbohydrates.

You are seeing the typical rationalizing of the Keto community, because in general Keto causes extremely high cholesterol, and most people NEED to convince themselves that it is somehow harmless when doing Keto, otherwise they would probably have to give up Keto.

If you are going to quickly choose rationalizing over evidence, then you really aren't looking for a "reasonable argument" against Keto.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,978
16,091
146
You are seeing the typical rationalizing of the Keto community, because in general Keto causes extremely high cholesterol, and most people NEED to convince themselves that it is somehow harmless when doing Keto, otherwise they would probably have to give up Keto.

If you are going to quickly choose rationalizing over evidence, then you really aren't looking for a "reasonable argument" against Keto.
I'm not looking to rationalize, and I'm willing to accept that I've potentially drunk the flavor-aid, so to speak, regarding Keto. I am very curious as to what actual, detailed research shows regarding LCHF diets however, as I've discovered a lot of prior research regarding health was sloppy and/or incomplete, and a huge amount of our present dietary guidelines were based off these. Based on that, I personally feel it's not uncalled for to double-check on some commonly-held beliefs just to verify they're actually correct.
 

mike8675309

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
508
116
116
I'm not looking to rationalize, and I'm willing to accept that I've potentially drunk the flavor-aid, so to speak, regarding Keto. I am very curious as to what actual, detailed research shows regarding LCHF diets however, as I've discovered a lot of prior research regarding health was sloppy and/or incomplete, and a huge amount of our present dietary guidelines were based off these. Based on that, I personally feel it's not uncalled for to double-check on some commonly-held beliefs just to verify they're actually correct.
Test it yourself if you want. It's really simple. go get a fasted cholesterol blood test. Eat keto for a year, go get the same blood test and let the doctor tell you what she/he thinks.
 
Reactions: killster1

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,978
16,091
146
Test it yourself if you want. It's really simple. go get a fasted cholesterol blood test. Eat keto for a year, go get the same blood test and let the doctor tell you what she/he thinks.
I wasn't arguing that a keto diet may increase cholesterol levels, just that it may not necessarily be a bad thing. Given my track record with medical professionals, I'd give it 50/50 odds that they'd immediately order me on some medication.
 

HutchinsonJC

Senior member
Apr 15, 2007
467
207
126
I'll preface that I'm no health professional. Some topics just interest me, and once I seek out my own answer to better understand, it usually sticks with me.

Consuming fats like that, long term, isn't good for you. Your brain likes glucose (sugar), so I don't know how you can cut entirely your carbs/sugar if your brain wants some.

You can keep the ketotonic state without a huge consumption of fat. You just eat less. Your body will burn up fat stores as a matter of needing the energy.

People who get stuck under fallen debris from an earthquake can tend to lose some several 10s of pounds as they remain pinned and have nothing to consume (a chunk is water weight). I'm sure it starts with a headache by day 2, but eventually the body will trigger that fat burn mode and it'll get more efficient by day 3, and then day 4.

There are some people who take "Sheer Ketones" or something similar (buy on Amazon) to jump start the ketononic state and help bypass some of the headache that can often come up from not eating, and then they basically eat nothing for a week, aside maybe a banana, or few other pieces of sliced fruit a day, with the whole point of being basically a week of weight loss/fat burning.

Extremes of anything long term is bad for you. Even drinking too much water in a fairly small window of time without a whole lot of other salts/patassium, etc, can kill you because it flushes out all of your electrolytes.

There's a reason so many health professionals think you need a balanced diet! And while I don't think we've got anyone that knows what the perfect diet is, exactly (and all our bodies/metabolisms are different anyway), I tend to think that you should probably try to have some kind of a balanced diet unless a health professional you trust and can back with specific reasons for your situation, tells you otherwise.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
I wasn't arguing that a keto diet may increase cholesterol levels, just that it may not necessarily be a bad thing. Given my track record with medical professionals, I'd give it 50/50 odds that they'd immediately order me on some medication.

If you want to do more than rationalize (AKA pretend) that Keto somehow makes you immune to dangerously high levels of cholesterol, you need some real solid studies to counter nearly a century of evidence that high LDL cholesterol is a causative factor in heart disease:

A Century of Cholesterol and Coronaries: From Plaques to Genes to Statins
"One-fourth of all deaths in industrialized countries result from coronary heart disease. A century of research has revealed the essential causative agent – cholesterol-carrying low density lipoprotein (LDL). "

I have seen no evidence that Keto is somehow immune to this very well known cause and effect relationship.

Further it sounds like you won't even get your lipids tested after going Keto. This is avoidance of what you know is bad news, which is just more rationalizing.

So you have had your reasonable argument against Keto, you prefer to just stick your head in the sand and continue.
 
Reactions: whm1974

deadlyapp

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2004
6,652
734
126
Ketosis is great for kick starting weight loss. Ketosis is not great for long term body maintenance. Your goal should be to use ketosis to get to a reasonable body fat percentage, and then if more weight loss is desirable, start adding back in carbs and cutting back fats.

There are some people who have stayed in long term ketosis with no ill effects, or those who it greatly benefits (people with history of neuro issues), but for gen-pop I don't think the research supports long term utilization.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,679
5,802
146
My experience with keto was good overall. My total cholestrol went from near 200 to 106. My ratios were off due to having such a low total.
 

HutchinsonJC

Senior member
Apr 15, 2007
467
207
126
@RunWithForrest
There are some people who take "Sheer Ketones" or something similar (buy on Amazon) to jump start the ketononic state and help bypass some of the headache that can often come up from not eating, and then they basically eat nothing for a week, aside maybe a banana, or few other pieces of sliced fruit a day, with the whole point of being basically a week of weight loss/fat burning.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
So the SO and I are currently on week 4 or so of a shift to Keto diet, pretty stringently holding to it to remain in Ketosis. Lots of meat, fats, non-starchy veggies, etc. Feeling superb, both physically and mentally. Gastrointestinal stress is gone, I don't get low blood sugar as easily as I used to (to the extent I actually get hungry before I get low now). Lost a moderate amount of weight, about a belt loop's worth, but that's less of a concern to me compared to how I feel.

I did this once before, a few years back, though I didn't know it was Keto at the time. Was following some co-workers who basically just went meat and leafy green's, no starches, carbs, of any kind. Lost an absolute ton of weight on that one (20lbs in 4 weeks, another 5 in the two weeks after).

So.. is there a reasonable argument as to why everyone shouldn't be eating this way? Should avacados not flow like water from the tap? Should corn be deemed illegal, in all forms? Someone check my privilege!

While I definitely see Keto as a positive solution for short term weight loss, there are a few reasons it should NOT be the standard diet for the average human being:

1. It's not an ideal way for the human body to operate. It's like running off a generator full time when there's plenty of clean power and reliability off the grid. There is a reason the human body will always, always, always resort to burning carbs before burning fat; it's easier, and it's cleaner. You can be in Ketosis for a year, and if you eat a week of carbs, you will come out of Ketosis every time. Ketosis raises blood acidity, and while there are some who operate in this just fine, for many it leads to a plethora of unwanted side-effects like loss of bone density, increased rate of kidney stones, and other unwanted side-effects that occur when your body is flushing sodium, calcium, magnesium, and potassium from the bloodstream at a rapid rate. It's not all roses and butterflies for most people long term.

2. Many of the foods required to sustain Ketosis (ie, meat) are very high in cholesterol and very low in other necessary vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and most importantly, fiber. Like it or not, increased rates of cardiovascular disease, renal failure, and cancers will result in a population long term. And like it or not, you will have to pay for that in your insurance rates.

3. For most people, the Keto diet is way too limiting. You joke about loving Avocados, and I do too, but you won't be saying that in a few months when you've eaten hundreds of them. It gets old.

4. And most importantly, and this should be a key factor into why Keto is not the best diet for human beings; it is not environmentally sustainable for the human race to operate on a Keto diet. I'm only saying this as a comparison, not out of personal preference, but to sustain a single person on a Keto diet requires 30-40x the land needed to sustain a single person on a purely plant based diet. Add in the extra fossil fuel requirement necessary for Keto, and you have a diet that, if the entire human population had to go on tomorrow, would strip all remaining forest land, existing soil, and water reserves in a very, very short period of time. We are already doing this at a rapid rate, and that's without Keto, but Keto would only make it worse.

5. Final reason Keto is not ideal; beer. Nuff said.
 

Riverhound777

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2003
3,360
61
91
If you want to do Keto, at least pair it with Intermittent Fasting. Then after a while you can stop Keto but keep doing IF. Or just do IF and forget Keto. I've been doing 16:8 for a month now and can't believe the results. I should have been eating this way my whole adult life.
 

mike8675309

Senior member
Jul 17, 2013
508
116
116
My experience with keto was good overall. My total cholestrol went from near 200 to 106. My ratios were off due to having such a low total.

The only number that matters is the LDL number. if LDL is low it doesn't' matter what HDL is essentially. ideally ldl is from 50 to 70 mg/dl. so if you had a 50/50 split you would be doing good. 80/20, not so good.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,298
23
81
While I definitely see Keto as a positive solution for short term weight loss, there are a few reasons it should NOT be the standard diet for the average human being:

1. It's not an ideal way for the human body to operate. It's like running off a generator full time when there's plenty of clean power and reliability off the grid. There is a reason the human body will always, always, always resort to burning carbs before burning fat; it's easier, and it's cleaner. You can be in Ketosis for a year, and if you eat a week of carbs, you will come out of Ketosis every time. Ketosis raises blood acidity, and while there are some who operate in this just fine, for many it leads to a plethora of unwanted side-effects like loss of bone density, increased rate of kidney stones, and other unwanted side-effects that occur when your body is flushing sodium, calcium, magnesium, and potassium from the bloodstream at a rapid rate. It's not all roses and butterflies for most people long term.

Ketosis doesn't flush minerals out of the body except at the very start. Your body holds extra water to keep glucose dispersed/diluted, this gets released when you switch into fat-burn mode, along with some minerals. This typically has either minimal effect (my case) or causes keto flu (as described above). The solution to keto flu is not extra water, it's more sodium/potassium/magnesium.

2. Many of the foods required to sustain Ketosis (ie, meat) are very high in cholesterol and very low in other necessary vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and most importantly, fiber. Like it or not, increased rates of cardiovascular disease, renal failure, and cancers will result in a population long term. And like it or not, you will have to pay for that in your insurance rates.

Dietary cholesterol does not increase cholesterol in your bloodstream! Ingested cholesterol just gets chopped up and converted to energy just like most other stuff you eat. Gorging on carbs is what increases cholesterol.

And, if you're doing it right, you'll eat more (non-starchy) veggies on a keto diet than on a "normal" carb-laden diet. Broccoli, cauliflower, zucchini, squash, cucumber, tomato, greens and green salads are all fine on this diet.

3. For most people, the Keto diet is way too limiting. You joke about loving Avocados, and I do too, but you won't be saying that in a few months when you've eaten hundreds of them. It gets old.

Meat, cheese, eggs, greens. Meaning hamburgers, steaks, pork chops, chicken, bacon, BBQ (dry, or with vinegar sauce), omelets, etc. Boring? Not even close! Plus you can get creative with almond flour recipes for pizza and many other options.

4. And most importantly, and this should be a key factor into why Keto is not the best diet for human beings; it is not environmentally sustainable for the human race to operate on a Keto diet. I'm only saying this as a comparison, not out of personal preference, but to sustain a single person on a Keto diet requires 30-40x the land needed to sustain a single person on a purely plant based diet. Add in the extra fossil fuel requirement necessary for Keto, and you have a diet that, if the entire human population had to go on tomorrow, would strip all remaining forest land, existing soil, and water reserves in a very, very short period of time. We are already doing this at a rapid rate, and that's without Keto, but Keto would only make it worse.

5. Final reason Keto is not ideal; beer. Nuff said.

I'll give you it's probably more draining on the environment than eating nothing but rice 24/7. But honestly, who's going to do that? And beer, beer is tough, especially if you like good beer. There are options like Ultra with 4g carbs, if you can really call that beer. Otherwise, you just have to save your drinking requirements for a cheat day and indulge.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,298
23
81
If you couldn't tell, I'm pro-keto. I've personally been on keto diet now for a bit over a year, am down nearly 50 pounds (248 -> 201 this morning, was 197 three days ago before a cheat day). My bloodwork improved, cholesterol dropped from 181 (3 months before started the diet) to 128 about nine months into the diet. I also follow intermittent fasting on approximately an 8/16 window (no breakfast, eat lunch + dinner).

But don't take my word for it, here's the Cleveland Clinic saying LC diets are better for weight loss and heart health than low fat diets:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/low-carb-eating-may-be-best-for-weight-loss-heart-health/
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
If you couldn't tell, I'm pro-keto. I've personally been on keto diet now for a bit over a year, am down nearly 50 pounds (248 -> 201 this morning, was 197 three days ago before a cheat day). My bloodwork improved, cholesterol dropped from 181 (3 months before started the diet) to 128 about nine months into the diet. I also follow intermittent fasting on approximately an 8/16 window (no breakfast, eat lunch + dinner).

But don't take my word for it, here's the Cleveland Clinic saying LC diets are better for weight loss and heart health than low fat diets:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/low-carb-eating-may-be-best-for-weight-loss-heart-health/

That's essentially one local group somewhere mentioning a pro-Keto Study, and near the end of the article they say transition to a Mediterranean diet for heart health.

Cholesterol numbers usually go down with weight loss on any method. The telling thing is what happens when stop losing weight and are no longer in deficit.

High Profile long term Keto People like Jimmy Moore have alarmingly high cholesterol, and really that seems to be more the norm, than the exception in the Keto community:

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/c...-after-eating-keto-for-almost-a-year/11698/24

Instead of nice low cholesterol numbers, you see high numbers and many attempts to rationalize why they are ok, with high numbers.
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,298
23
81
Local group? LOL do a little research bud. From Wikipedia:

The Cleveland Clinic is nationally recognized as one of the top medical centers in the US and the world, particularly in technological and management systems and in the treatment of cardiovascular disease.

There's no way they'd risk their reputation with a statement like that without solid evidence backing it up.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
136
Local group? LOL do a little research bud. From Wikipedia:
There's no way they'd risk their reputation with a statement like that without solid evidence backing it up.

That web page is simply a clearing house for health news stories, not some kind of prescription for living:

It has other "statements" like:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/the-sleep-fairy-and-other-tricks-to-help-your-kid-sleep/
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/duct-tape-fix/
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-to-keep-your-vagina-happy-healthy/
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/what-your-selfies-might-be-saying-about-you/
 

Denithor

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2004
6,298
23
81
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29199027?dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSIONS:
In contrast to previous short-term reports on adverse effects of KDT, 10-year follow-up did not identify cardiovascular risks of dietary treatment for Glut1D.

Ten year study good enough for you? Granted, it's a small study (ten children), but none of them had elevated cholesterol, triglycerides, etc after ten years on a ketogenic diet. Including one child who had dyslipidaemia (high triglycerides, high LDL, low HDL) at the start of the study.
 
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