Libertarian views Vs. the opposition

[Scotteq]

You backpedaled, not I. Try scrolling up and looking at the "ideals" part in your own quote you "answered" so knee-jerkingly.

Oh - So Germany - who's Government was Created (read: Dictated) by the Allied powers after WW2 represents "Democratic Ideals"

Or France: Who's Highly Socialist leaning Republic was also created by the Allied Powers after WW2??


Or Great Britan - Which has been a Constitutional Monarchy since the fucking Fifteen Hundreds??


The only thing "Democratic" about these countries is they elect Representatives to conduct business on "the people's" behalf. By definition, that means they're Republics.


The only Knee Jerk here is you, for your ever so lame attept at covering your ignorance.


And if you want to discuss "Democratic Ideals" - Check out the aftermath of the French revolution.

 

[BigDH01]

The fail is you guys for not knowing the difference between a Democracy and a Republic. You must have been skipping social studies to go smoke pot.


In a "real" Democracy, decisions are made directly by the people. *Nobody* does this today: It'd just too damned unweildy.

In a Republic, the people elect Representatives to conduct the nation's business on their behalf.


The United States is a Constitutional, Federal Republic.


(edit)

Since you guys spent so much time skipping class, here:

I don't like to play the "naming game" as it really obfuscates real discussion, but a republic is simply any government where the majority of the power rests in the hands of the people. The name simply means "a public affair." This is why you see many socialist countries call themselves republics. It simply refers to a government of the people.

We do not live in a direct democracy in most cases. This falls apart somewhat at local and states levels where citizens often do vote directly on important issues. At the federal level, we are a representative democracy. This is often confusing in the United States as our founding fathers often compared democratic states to republican states. What they were really comparing was direct democracies to representative democracies with limits on the power of the majority. This is not unusual in the modern world. For example, the Federal Republic of Germany has a constitution and a court to protect the rights of its citizens, but recognizes that it is a democracy.

I think the confusion in the US rests in the works of the founding fathers and the inclusion of the word republic in the pledge of allegiance. We are both a republic and a democracy. We are a republic because power rests with the people (and not, say, a monarch) and we are a democracy because we vote on policy, either directly in some cases, or by proxy.

 

[Steeplerot]

Look man, if you cannot handle being wrong try going back to high school civics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

Spells it out plainly and even lists the countries in the example, you are acting thick headed now.


Germany and France had and were mixed market Democratic Socialist governments from long before WW1 even. I have no idea why you think history starts after ww2 if you are discussing political ideology.

The SDP (the ruling Socialist Party of Germany to this day) was founded on May 23, 1863, Democracy in Europe has been around a long time. (France was Democratic about when we told the UK monarchy off)

Western Liberal Democracies can take many forms. Depending on the history of the country and its rulers fates through revolutions here and there. Yes, some democracies have their historical monarchies intact, but they are benign and powerless. Some have Jeffersonian representation and some have Parliaments but it does not change whether the country is a liberal democracy or not.

If people vote on rulers whether the are direct or representative you live in a liberal democracy. That is the definition.

 

[Scotteq]

Red - And the part you are ignoring is that none of them are based on "Ideals" - They're all Republics. Hell, your examples even use the word "Socialist" in their names.

Democratic Ideals went out the window a long, long time ago. We still use only a small portion of those (i.e. - we elect a representative), but otherwise...

There *are* no real 'Democracys'. Just the illusion.

 

[First]

Germany is a Federal Republic

France is a Parliamentary Republic

Great Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy

And First is an idiot for not knowing what he's talking about.






The United States is also a (Federal/Constitutional) Republic. Not a Democracy.



There are exactly *ZERO* Democracys around today, and haven't been since ancient Greece.

Your posts in this thread are sad on many levels for several reasons;

1) A democratic society does NOT imply nor restrict its definition to people making all the decisions or whatever BS you just learned in your college 101 course. It can take all sorts of forms and sorry, but any country that actively holds elections on a yearly basis is a democracy of some form, say the direct form. I'm not sure why you think all these countries are republics. No, Glenn Beck telling you what a republic is doesn't cut it.

2) If you read what I actually replied to, you wouldn't be embarrassing yourself by thinking this was a conversation about democratic ideals vs. democrat ideals. He said democrat so I responded with correct (and obvious) answers based on what the democrat party generally tends to believe (socialized democracies). If he meant democratic, that's another story. Still applies in many ways to the countries I listed.

3) Your definition of "real" democracy is irrelevant, it doesn't exist and no one cares about it. People mostly only care about what can be applied in reality, and the most ideal form of democrat ideals (and democratic ones to a lesser extent) certainly can be seen in France, Britain, and Germany.

 

[Scotteq]

I think they are Republics because they *are* Republics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic


re·pub·lic   

/rɪˈpʌblɪk/

[ri-puhb-lik]

–noun
1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.


If a Representative handles government functions/efforts on the behalf of the people, that is the very definition of a Republic.




Germany: http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/government_type.html Federal Republic

France: http://www.indexmundi.com/france/government_type.html Republic

Great Britain: http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/government_profile.html Constitutional Monarchy/Commonwealth

The only "democratic ideal" about modern government is that 'the people' get to vote for someone else who does the work. That's all.

 

[Steeplerot]

Right over this guys head...damn.

 

[sandorski]

Germany is a Federal Republic

France is a Parliamentary Republic

Great Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy

And First is an idiot for not knowing what he's talking about.






The United States is also a (Federal/Constitutional) Republic. Not a Democracy.



There are exactly *ZERO* Democracys around today, and haven't been since ancient Greece.

Ah, you decided to go the Fail Route, congrats.

 

[BigDH01]

I think they are Republics because they *are* Republics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic


re·pub·lic   

/rɪˈpʌblɪk/

[ri-puhb-lik]

–noun
1. a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them.


If a Representative handles government functions/efforts on the behalf of the people, that is the very definition of a Republic.




Germany: http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/government_type.html Federal Republic

France: http://www.indexmundi.com/france/government_type.html Republic

Great Britain: http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/government_profile.html Constitutional Monarchy/Commonwealth

The only "democratic ideal" about modern government is that 'the people' get to vote for someone else who does the work. That's all.

The first paragraph from Wiki:

A republic is a state under a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, retain supreme control over the government.[1][2] The term is generally also understood to describe a state where most decisions are made with reference to established laws, rather than the discretion of a head of state, and therefore monarchy is today generally considered to be incompatible with being a republic. One common modern definition of a republic is a state without a monarch.[3][4] The word "republic" is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair".

It's just a government of the people.

That means that France, Germany, the US, etc are republics. However, we are *also* democracies.

http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm#20

Federal Republic of Germany's constitution. Article 20, line 1:

(1) The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state.

Article 1 of the French constitution:

France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis.

Pretty much all modern nations are republics as they aren't ruled by monarchs. Most modern western nations are also democracies where people vote for policies. Like I said, it's a shame that somehow republicanism in the US got entangled with representative democracy, but the word republic (more specifically, its latin counterpart) was in use long before Madison sat down and compared direct democracy with representative democracy. We live in a democratic republic. Republic because we aren't ruled by a king and democratic because we vote for our representatives. We practice representative democracy.

 

[mammador]

I'll say one thing - libertarianism will get nowhere fast, at least in the foreseeable future.

Most people's political thinking is not libertarian, and libertarianism is WAAY beyond what the average Joe thinks politically. Libertarians need to accept this and not get angry or irate. Look it at this way, if you lived in 1700 and protested against slavery would most people have agreed with you? Heck no. Libertarianism is just beyond the norm of modern political culture/thinking.

 

[Steeplerot]

I'll say one thing - libertarianism will get nowhere fast, at least in the foreseeable future.

Most people's political thinking is not libertarian, and libertarianism is WAAY beyond what the average Joe thinks politically. Libertarians need to accept this and not get angry or irate. Look it at this way, if you lived in 1700 and protested against slavery would most people have agreed with you? Heck no. Libertarianism is just beyond the norm of modern political culture/thinking.

Yes, because Ayn Rand objectivity drones are the master race. (of douchebags)

 

[bfdd]

well to be fair republics and democracies are quite different as to describe something as a democracy would mostly imply direct democracy as that is the purest form of democracy. a republic builds on the foundations of democracy, but is not in it's purest sense a democracy. if you were chums with the founding fathers, you would never call a single one of them a democrat because to say such implied they were FOR direct democracy and it should be quite obvious that the founding fathers hated the idea of such.

 

[Throckmorton]

I'll say one thing - libertarianism will get nowhere fast, at least in the foreseeable future.

Most people's political thinking is not libertarian, and libertarianism is WAAY beyond what the average Joe thinks politically. Libertarians need to accept this and not get angry or irate. Look it at this way, if you lived in 1700 and protested against slavery would most people have agreed with you? Heck no. Libertarianism is just beyond the norm of modern political culture/thinking.

I disagree. Republicans mostly subscribe to Libetarian ideals now. It's just that they aren't as stupid as the die hard libertarians and will compromise on their ideals when it makes sense to. For example, most Republicans wouldn't cut funding for injured veterans.

 

[zinfamous]

lol.

what the hell happened to OP?

 

[Mursilis]

lol.

what the hell happened to OP?

Gone, apparently. I'd just be curious about OP's prior identity.

 

[zinfamous]

Gone, apparently. I'd just be curious about OP's prior identity.

yeah, I didn't find it in any of his other posts, or in the PI forum. maybe this was a ninja investigation and banning.

...but the hijacking of his Avatar seems like he must have been a rather well-known thorn in AT's side.

:hmm:

 

[mammador]

Germany is a Federal Republic

France is a Parliamentary Republic

Great Britain is a Constitutional Monarchy

And First is an idiot for not knowing what he's talking about.






The United States is also a (Federal/Constitutional) Republic. Not a Democracy.



There are exactly *ZERO* Democracys around today, and haven't been since ancient Greece.

Semantics. There are different types of democracies.