Life Decisions

[eakers]

<< So, I'm making decisions based on my interests. What do you think? How are these decisions going to impact my future? >>


you will be happy.

*kat. <-- says to do whatever makes you happy and worry about the job stuff later.

 

[LadyNiniane]

I'm a mainframe systems programming consultant, specializing in IBM systems. I've been working in this field for 20+ years and been a full-time consultant for 11+ years. I like working on computers, both large and small boxes.

Why do I mention all of this?

Because my degree is a B. Mus. - yes, a Bachelor of Music degree. I have no other degree; I do have about 55 hours of post-graduate work in computer sciences and programming languages, taken through various night classes and intensive training seminars.

Get the degree in anything you like, even basket weaving. A degree indicates that you had/have the ability to survive 4 or more years of work to complete a lofty goal.

If you enjoy history or language studies, those are considered to be &quot;plus&quot; majors (along with anything in communications and literature studies), because earning one requires that you use a lot of language arts skills (i.e., you have to write a boatload of papers to pass). Music degrees and other fine arts majors are also considered to be &quot;pluses&quot; because of the amount of self-discipline required to complete the coursework (and, in the case of music, the logical thought processes used for music studies parallel those taught in mathematics).

(No, I am not making this up; when I first moved into the computer industry, I was concerned about my particular degree status. A good friend who had worked in Human Resources in a couple of companies filled me in on all of this. He was right, too.)

Business administation is a good general major; computer science and engineering are great if you genuinely enjoy the math work involved; otherwise, the study required for them palls very quickly. (How many would-be engineering majors do you know who bombed out on the &quot;make-it-or-break-it&quot; class [usually Differential Equations or one of the heavy-duty physics or chemistry courses], simply because they couldn't keep up with the studying needed?)

The degree plus your certifications should be enough to get you into the door without a problem. What happens after than will be entirely up to you.

Lady Niniane

 

[Descartes]

I think suggesting that he simply get a degree might be pushing it a little. Why get a degree at all? 4 years of experience is far superior to say, a psychology degree, in the IT field.

 

[LadyNiniane]

Descartes wrote, &quot;I think suggesting that he simply get a degree might be pushing it a little. Why get a degree at all? 4 years of experience is far superior to say, a psychology degree, in the IT field.&quot;

No, the piece of paper is the key.

My husband and I both are computer geeks - he has always done PCs and LANs, I've done both mainframes and PC workstations. I have a degree, he doesn't. My average hourly rate over the years has always been about twice what his was/is; even when we were both in consulting, he could never garner as much as I could, despite his having a higher experience level in his specialty than I have.

Lady Niniane

 

[Descartes]

Lady:

Maybe that's locale-specific, as the hourly rate of our consultants is based on output, and ability.

I'm young, and have yet to finish my degree, yet, I have degree holding developers working beneath me. True, at my last place of employment, this would not be the case, but in the world of development firms/consultants/ad naueseum, it is.

My only point is this: I've never heard someone say, &quot;Just make sure he has a degree, any degree...&quot; I've interviewed people w/ physics degrees, comp sci degrees, and psychology degree. When we see those w/ liberal arts degrees interviewing for web application development positions, we simply ignore it. Some may see those getting a degree &quot;just because&quot; as dedicated, we see them as someone looking for a 4 year excuse to party

I'm being half facetious in a few of my points, but you get the idea. Your mileage may vary.

 

[br0wn]

A four year degree will open MORE doors for you.
Enough said.

 

[Descartes]

Sure, but when you realize you spent 4 years opening a door to entry level positions, when you could've spent 4 years gaining experience and going to school part-time, you'll have to reevaluate your position.

I'm not saying school isn't important. I'm saying, if one has ambitions to get out there and work, that waiting 4 years to get a degree in a totally unrelated field, is nonsensical.

 

[DannyLove]

I agree, Im dropping out tomorrow

 

[LadyNiniane]

Another take on the &quot;degree or not to degree&quot; question (sorry, couldn't resist ):

One thing my husband has faced over the years is that at some point you realize that doors are closing because you do not have the degree. Then, when you try to go back to school (or attend part-time), you realize that life and family are interfering. In his case, work, school and daddy responsibilities have proven to be too much to handle all at the same time.

There is also (at least around these parts) an unspoken bias against older adults working in technical fields who don't have college paperwork. Younger ones can get away with certification only; older adults (anyone above 35 or so) have a more difficult time. Sucks...

Lady Niniane

 

[Descartes]

Lady:

I agree w/ you there. I'm single, and have, at times, had difficulty working through a project (where I work at least 70hrs/week) and trying to go to school. I can only imagine how much more difficult it would be for someone w/ a family.

I also have experienced the age bias issue, although from a different extreme. I'm young, and w/ that, I'm ostensibly irresponsible, not willing to commit, inexperienced, etc.. I've had to transcend a lot of the myopic mentality of my older peers at times, but that just comes w/ the territory. I find that once they see what you can do, they all eventually start to respect you, and trust your work.

Again, on the other side of the spectrum, I've seen employers discriminate against older potentials, as they see them as people who won't be able to commit due to family, being &quot;burnt out&quot;, etc..

 

[AncientPC]

Joohang: I'm in the same situation at UT Austin.

Currently I'm at University of Texas at Austin in the pre-CS major, but after taking a couple classes I don't know if I really want to major in computer science anymore.

Using your format . . .
- fluent in English and Chinese (basic Spanish, taking Japanese in college)
- in Austin
- currently aiming for a BS in Computer Science

Academic interests:
- history
- foreign cultures

Computer skills:
- computer hardware
- I know some basic programming, but it's probably not enough to get me anywhere

Familiar with:
- 9x / 2k
- simple networking

What do I plan on doing? Right now I'm probably going to stick with a BS in Comp Sci as my major (whether I like it or not, it's a technical field so I'll always be able to find a job) and a second major in Japanese or Asian studies.

Does anyone know if the difference between a BS or BA in CS is that big of a difference? So much crap classes that I have to take for a BS.

 

[LadyNiniane]

AncientPC asked, &quot;Does anyone know if the difference between a BS or BA in CS is that big of a difference? So much crap classes that I have to take for a BS.&quot;

Don't know about down there, but up here BA in CS is &quot;comp-sci lite&quot; - that and a MS cert will get you a job as a net admin

Once you have some job experience the BA vs. BS degree isn't nearly as big of a deal. Our consulting firm will almost always take those with the BS degree over an otherwise equal candidate with a BA, if they're first-timers, but with more than about 2 years experience, all they do is check for the degree, not what it is.

Lady Niniane

 

[Descartes]

Lady:

No offense, but that sounds like a rather absurd policy.

If (experienceLevel > 2 &amp;&amp; hasDegree()) acceptCandidateWithoutRegardToMajor;

?

So, someone w/ their MCSD, 15 years of experience, published books, etc., wouldn't make it past this condition? Maybe I better hurry and get a degree in horticulture...

Not a flame, merely an inquiry.

 

[joohang]

LadyNiniane,

I've interviewed quite a few people so far. I've talked to BCIT graduates, Microsoft employees, enterprise developer with no college experience, etc.

Like you mention, just about every one of them told me to gain experience and self-discipline.

I lack experience, but I do have a very very good self-discipline. I've got used to living on my own since secondary school years, went through the full diploma IB program (for academic discipline), and self-studied nearly all my computer skills.

That's another part of my dilemma. I became too &quot;mature&quot; too early. While my classmates worry about partying, I worry about rent and bills. I get along better with older students and adults in computer club meetings than I do with my classmates. I'm going to UBC just to learn some more about history and sciences, but sometimes wonder if it is worth the time.

I had a scholarship this year. I am still unsure about next year. I wish I could work full-time somewhere and take part-time studies.

 

[joohang]

<< My only point is this: I've never heard someone say, &quot;Just make sure he has a degree, any degree...&quot; I've interviewed people w/ physics degrees, comp sci degrees, and psychology degree. When we see those w/ liberal arts degrees interviewing for web application development positions, we simply ignore it. Some may see those getting a degree &quot;just because&quot; as dedicated, we see them as someone looking for a 4 year excuse to party >>

Uh oh... How about those with Asian Studies or History degrees? I wanted to declare Liberal Arts, but UBC doesn't have that option.

I'm going to UBC just to get some further education. Become even more &quot;well-rounded.&quot; Is that bad?

Or would employers prefer me showing 4 years of full-time employment? I will have experience when I graduate, although they would be part-time and summer positions. I need to work to survive.

 

[Descartes]

joohang:

Not at all. I'm not meaning to imply that dedicating yourself to four years of education is a bad thing, I just don't think one should go get _any_ degree simply because you want the piece of paper.

Lady's place may be the exception, but I have yet to see a single HR group, headhunter, or company require _any_ degree, so long as you have one.

 

[joohang]

Descartes,

I also experienced age discrimination in many occasions. Once I got hired, though, they were all shocked at my knowledge in the field and called me &quot;genius&quot; etc. That was funny.

That's really cool and must be pretty cool to work in a development team with older people under you. I am teaching basic web design course as a temporary position, and all my students are older than me.

 

[joohang]

LadyNiniane,

More questions.

What kind of experience? Must they be full-time positions in the field? Can they be part-time?

And you mentioned business courses. I've always wanted to take a few of them, but wasn't sure what to take. Which courses do I take? Economics? Commerce? Or do I take courses from business colleges?

 

[Descartes]

joohang:

I get the same thing, but I have also at times received a bit of resentment on the part of some older consultants that we have on some projects. Some come around and get over their egos, some don't .

It's cool to have &quot;control&quot; over how a project evolves, but it has many downsides. Whenever there is question as to how something was implemented, or some random functionality appears, the finger is usually pointed in my direction w/o regard to anyone else. Just comes w/ the territory

The only real advice I can offer, is: Do whatever you enjoy doing. Personally, I like to code. I started coding for fun long before I ever even considered the concept of a job, and I still do. If you actually enjoy your work, it makes it that much better when you see a successful project roll out w/ your name on it.

 

[joohang]

AncientPC,

<< What do I plan on doing? Right now I'm probably going to stick with a BS in Comp Sci as my major (whether I like it or not, it's a technical field so I'll always be able to find a job) and a second major in Japanese or Asian studies. >>

You can do that in UT Austin? Just about everybody I talked to at UBC so far looked at me weird when I said that I wanted a double major in a Science and an unrelated Arts.

<< Does anyone know if the difference between a BS or BA in CS is that big of a difference? >>

No idea. In Canada, Comp Sci degree is a Comp Sci degree. At UBC, it's B.Sc. At SFU, it's an Applied Science (Engineering) degree. To me, SFU CS program seems a bit better, but I still wouldn't want to spend four years solving weird mathematical problems and coding in languages that I will probably never use.

 

[joohang]

Here's what I'll do:

I will stick with VB and keep learning more about it. Then, I'll study VB.NET and build several sample applications to gain some practical knowledge. I see some good future ahead with .NET applications, but if for some reason they don't get a good response from the industry, I'll just scrap it and learn some other form of programming then. I was working on my timetable last night (for next year), and it's got Physics, Math courses along with Asian Studies and History courses. I'm going to make an appointment with an advisor to see what kind of major I can declare with these courses.

70% of the reason I'm sticking with UBC is because I really have a passion for these academic courses. The other 30% is because of my parents. My father, especially, is a Korean Marine and fought in Vietnam. He can turn into an extremist at times, so I thought I'd just finish a 4-year degree program, keep him satisfied, and move on to my field.

However, if for some reason you believe that I should go into CS (I could go in now, if I wanted to) then please share your thoughts. Don't just tell me to go to CS; please take a minute or two to convince me why I should. I really appreciate all your posts.

 

[AncientPC]

Fortunately, UT Austin is a pretty well-rounded school focusing on mostly business and engineering.

However, it's liberal arts and computer science departments aren't that bad at all. Dijkstra used to work at UT Austin (retired last year).

&quot;You can do that in UT Austin? Just about everybody I talked to at UBC so far looked at me weird when I said that I wanted a double major in a Science and an unrelated Arts.&quot;

I suppose it's odd here too, but majoring in Japanese isn't that hard. I only have to take about 20~25 hours of certain Japanese classes over the 4 years in college to receive a minor. I might as well shoot for a minor in Chinese too.

The thing is, it's different than from double-majoring in EE and CS because the two field are related so some courses may overlap and cover pre-reqs from the other course. That's why double-majoring in a technical and non-technical field requires more hours.

 

[LadyNiniane]

Sorry about being slow on the uptake - little thing called &quot;work&quot; keeps interfering...

Descartes, my consulting company doesn't hire for the bench; we hire for specific open reqs and then work on continuing placements (if the candidate wants to remain a consultant) or locating a permanent full-time job if that is what's desired. In this area, most major corporations want 4-year degrees - regardless of the specialty. Once that particular hurdle is past, the experience level and additional training/certifications/whatever are the next thing scrutinized. There are exceptions in every case, but the majority of jobs follow that path.

Joohang, what I just said to Descartes applies to your questions as well. Yes, part-time experience is a good thing; the best of all worlds would be a part-time position doing whatever your specialty is (coding, hardware, whatever) and the degree to back it all up.

If you want to take some business-related courses, find out what the class list looks like for business admin majors. It will most likely include some basic accounting courses, several courses in people and career management functions, and some business writing skills courses. Pick one or two from each of those areas, and you will have a good basic set of classes that give you some idea of how a modern corporation operates.

I would definitely agree with those who say that you should concentrate on work and school that make you happy. The saddest thing I've ever seen is watching a good friend spend three very miserable years at two different colleges, trying desperately to fulfill her father's dream of becoming a computer engineer. She has the math skills, but has absolutely no technical &quot;bent&quot;. At one point, she even tried changing her major to mathematics teacher; she has done (and still does) private tutoring for middle-school students and is very good at it, but her few attempts at classroom work (as a student and substitute teacher) convinced her that she has no particular aptitude for group teaching.

We found her a position as a third-shift computer operator - she's happy as a lark. She's got the skills to work unsupervised (very important for third shift), understands how to diagnose and describe problems when they occur, and can handle multiple tasks without difficulties. She's gotten rave reviews for the past year, just moved from part-time to full-time, and has decided to forego further college education until/unless she feels comfortable about going back to class again. She is the exception to the preferred job route path (still has no degree), but she's found a solid niche that is making her much happier than she was before. (Her father is still rather p*ssed, but he's beginning to learn that he can't push it too far any more.)

Also keep in mind that I am a consultant, by choice. In my specialty (mainframe technical support), I learned long ago that there were only two paths available for me to follow in order to continue to earn good money - managing or consulting. I have an absolute horror of doing personnel-type paperwork, so I went the consultant route. I'm happy about my work.

Lady Niniane

 

[joohang]

Lady,

That story of your friend reminds me of my supervisor. Apparently she changed her major several times but couldn't find her passion. So she dropped out and got some computer training. She's now working as the User Services coordinator at UBC Library Systems. She's a really cool person, too.

 

[PakG1]

<< Does anyone know if the difference between a BS or BA in CS is that big of a difference? >>

At SFU, it's MACM 316. Probably everywhere else, it's just some courses that might increase your technical knowledge or ability to create good algorithms. MACM 316 is something about functions, although I forget exactly what. Not calculus though.