Linux for noobs

[pkme2]

I do remember that I offered my client a used PIII with Ubuntu installed for $100, plus lessons last Friday. He has since called me for the rig and lessons today. He's giving the Dell to his son and going Linux. Its his money and this person doesn't have to contend with "wasting money" and worry about anyone's pretty large assumption.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: pkme2
I do remember that I offered my client a used PIII with Ubuntu installed for $100, plus lessons last Friday. He has since called me for the rig and lessons today. He's giving the Dell to his son and going Linux. Its his money and this person doesn't have to contend with "wasting money" and worry about anyone's pretty large assumption.

Wow, you must be a pretty impressive 'technician'. You must have your A+.

 

[nweaver]

do you realize how very little support is required for a linux box after the initial setup?

and if somone can read, it's easy to fix linux. I had a machine were X woudln't start (would dump me back to shell). A quick look in the .xsessions error log and it told me that it' didn't have permissions for a file. Chown and startx and I was back up. When the GUI doesn't start in windows, does it tell you what's wrong?

With Sudo and synaptic, keeping a Debian based distros up to date and running is dead easy. Much much much easier then windows. If you miss a patch, chances are good there isn't a worm in the wild waiting to own your box and add it to the botnet.

 

[pkme2]

Yes to Lifer. I realize that you're a legend on AT, and that is the truth. You're a legend alright, in your own mind. I don't need your remarks to do my job. I do OK, but may not satisfy you, because you will always have a cute comeback.

 

[Nothinman]

Yeah, i would and do. I like OSX too, but lets be real here, there's hardly any support for it.

I know a few people that use Macs everyday that would disagree with you.

hmmm didn't i say that in one of my posts?

Then you must be a confused person because you can't have it both ways. No one was talking about having someone who can't even install Windows install Linux, except you. And if that person does have someone around who knows Linux already, they'll have a support line and probably a lot less problems in the long run.

Hm the only hardware i ever had to do that with is a HDD. But everything else, the tech agent wanted to walk through in Windows to make sure drivers or software are correctly installed. And are you going to RMA everytime something fails... when 95% of the time when something fails, it's software or driver related?

That's why I said 'and died' because most other computer components out live their usefulness and get replaced long before they die. But I very rarely have any software problems that I don't bring upon myself messing with things, so if someone sets up the box (and pkme2 obviously would) there's virtually no chance that the Linux installation will just randomly stop working.

Again, didn't i say that already? And that's assuming the friend, cousin, or technician knows Linux to help them.

We are assuming that because it was pkme2's comment he has commented that he's comfortable with Linux. Which would then invalid your comment about me calling for an RMA everytime something fails because the user in this particular situation would have someone to determine if it's really a hardware problem or not.

95% of call centers won't talk to you if you have anything other than Windows installed. Saying otherwise is BS.

I have never had a problem with support, but then again I very rarely use it. But again we come back to the fact that pkme2 is already this person's contracted technician and would intercept any configuration issues before any call centers were contacted.

Well that's a pretty large assumption. So instead of wasting money on getting his computer cleaned, he's going to be using that money for the 'support'.

It may be large, but it's a safe assumption based on the wording of pkme2's post. And pkme2 already said that he's wasted more on support than the original purchase cost so I really doubt the situation could get much worse.

Wow, you must be a pretty impressive 'technician'. You must have your A+.

So when your technical arguments are all shot down you resort to personal attacks?

 

[pkme2]

Originally posted by: nweaver
do you realize how very little support is required for a linux box after the initial setup?

and if somone can read, it's easy to fix linux. I had a machine were X woudln't start (would dump me back to shell). A quick look in the .xsessions error log and it told me that it' didn't have permissions for a file. Chown and startx and I was back up. When the GUI doesn't start in windows, does it tell you what's wrong?

With Sudo and synaptic, keeping a Debian based distros up to date and running is dead easy. Much much much easier then windows. If you miss a patch, chances are good there isn't a worm in the wild waiting to own your box and add it to the botnet.

You're absolutely right! Linux today, doesn't need rocket scientists to work it. It has gotten to be so user-friendly that I recommend it to my students too. I have tutored Windows these past 10 years and have found Linux much easier to learn. Its your choice, try it.

 

[pkme2]

Lifer, if you have the expertise, why don't you recommend to us in your infinite wisdom, how you can assist Inspector Jihad, instead of trying to incite a flaming war.

 

[Looney]

So when your technical arguments are all shot down you resort to personal attacks?

LOL shot down how? You're just regurgitating the same things over and over, and they're nothing but opinions too. Linux isn't an easy thing to learn, certainly for somebody who needs to pay to clean viruses and spyware. If he was a good technician, he could have set up that Windows box so there's a much less chance of it getting so ruined that it needs a tech. Or he could have setup a ghost image and instructions on how to use it... i do that for my 12 year old cousins... the instructions are less than 6 steps (and i even went so far as to include screenshots).

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: pkme2
Lifer, if you have the expertise, why don't you recommend to us in your infinite wisdom, how you can assist Inspector Jihad, instead of trying to incite a flaming war.

I thought i did... i said that if he's going to try Linux, give it a real shot at it, otherwise he's going to hate it. And if he's just interesting in a quick look at it, then use the Ubuntu live CDs.

 

[Nothinman]

Linux isn't an easy thing to learn, certainly for somebody who needs to pay to clean viruses and spyware.

Obviously neither is Windows, otherwise he wouldn't have to pay for someone to clean up after him.

If he was a good technician, he could have set up that Windows box so there's a much less chance of it getting so ruined that it needs a tech.

That might be impossible, there are a lot of things on Windows that require administrative priviledges. And it's a lot more work to secure a Windows box than it is to install some software on a Linux box.

Or he could have setup a ghost image and instructions on how to use it... i do that for my 12 year old cousins... the instructions are less than 6 steps (and i even went so far as to include screenshots).

That would require him buying a copy of Ghost. That and all he needs is one mistake in the restore process and he could lose all of his data, we've already seen that the person isn't the most technically minded so why should we be able to trust him to operate Ghost but not Firefox on Linux?

 

[pkme2]

Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, and you about to lose on the technical side too. As a retired engineer and teacher, I do repairs because I enjoy the challenge.
Most of my clients are not up on Windows, that's why I don't have to worry where my next windows job comes from.
You might notice that I'm not intimidated by your long standing on AT. Its a common fact that newcomers are afraid of being put down by whoever, but careful, and unless a MOD steps in, you don't intimidate me. Either get with the tread, and stop your criticizing and offer something positive. Not everybody is as 'smart' as you and we here to help and offer advice. I don't appreciate your criticisms and if you saying that Ubuntu is hard to learn, you better find another line to criticize because you're on the edge.

 

[DBSX]

It really is too bad some people always need to make these posts flame wars

First, I like Windows. I am comfortable using Windows. I think Windows is "easy".

Now, having said that, it doesn't give me the right to say my OS of choice is "better" than another. I am sick of people trying to push their chosen OS as superior. Clearly one OS is better for one thing, while another is better at something else, and a third might be better at yet something different, but that doesn't make it "better" than another when looking at the big picture. Jeezum crow, everyone needs to get over it already. Use the OS you like, and stop being a zealot. Gives people a bad name (Windows zealots, Linux zealots, Mac OS zealots, whatever). Would I recomend Linux or Mac OS to someone? Frankly, no. But that is only because I would be the support person, and I am not confident in my abilities to support these OSes. Other than the bare minimum of Linux support, with only one distro (SUSE).

/rant. I know that will not change anyone's behaviour, but sometimes it needs to be said.

Now, to the topic. My first foray into Linux was with SUSE. Version 7 was a lot of trouble for me, version 8 was a bit better. Currently I use version 9.3 and really like it. It's not "easy" in my estimation, but then that is because I am not familiar with it yet. I can do the basics with the Linux box, and that was the point of the box; to try Linux and start with the basics. I've been tempted to try SUSE 10, but the few people I know who have tried it didn't like it, so I think I'll stick with what I've got, since I have it working and can do actual "stuff" with it!

If you aren't interested in spending lots of time, maybe try several distros? Just try ones with Live CDs and maybe see which you like best then play more with that one?

\Dan

 

[pkme2]

:thumbsup:
DBSX

 

[MadRat]

nweaver :thumbsup::thumbsup:

DBSX: If you like 9.3 then you'll love 10.1 SuSE. Its silky smooth to install and use.

We've had numerous threads around here on just how low of system you can go with some of the distributions.

Typically you can dumb it down pretty far if you are using minimalist GUI's like IceWM and FVWM. The 2.4.x kernel is better suited for them older systems, too. Might I suggest if you have the memory and drive space to load the newest copies of wine and DOSbox for linux. You can do alot of MS software using these two shells. I am just dumbfounded how far wine has come. And I've not run into any problems using DOSbox except for programs that check specifically for the DOS version.

 

[MadRat]

Originally posted by: nweaver
do you realize how very little support is required for a linux box after the initial setup?

and if somone can read, it's easy to fix linux. I had a machine were X woudln't start (would dump me back to shell). A quick look in the .xsessions error log and it told me that it' didn't have permissions for a file. Chown and startx and I was back up. When the GUI doesn't start in windows, does it tell you what's wrong?

With Sudo and synaptic, keeping a Debian based distros up to date and running is dead easy. Much much much easier then windows. If you miss a patch, chances are good there isn't a worm in the wild waiting to own your box and add it to the botnet.

The beauty is you can fix your client's machine with a remote console if need be. The dreaded MS version of a screen dump, the BSOD, disabled the other systems and therefore you pretty much have to show in person to fix it.

 

[Nothinman]

The 2.4.x kernel is better suited for them older systems, too.

How so?

 

[MadRat]

Its a smaller memroy footprint for older systems. I never found 2.6.x to be all that snappy on say a P166 with EDO memory.

 

[Seeruk]

I think what is being alluded to in this post is something a little more basic...

Here is a fact...for free... no charge.... I'll give this to you as I am a nice guy.....

AN IDIOT ON WINDOWS IS STILL AN IDIOT ON LINUX

Now what does that pearl of wisdom mean? It means someone who can't read in windows still won't read in linux! The newspapers, the interweb, jeezuz even my grandparents are screaming with scare stories about don't click this, don't visit these sites, and whatever you do - DON'T PRESSS THAT RED BUTTON!

But what do the idiots do? Nothing that is advised to them thats for sure. They still scavenge for free porn (ooo all I have to do is install this free program for porn?? CoOool), they still open attachments called freecar.exe and they still haven't the faintest idea of what the hell they are doing.

You would think linux would make them safer but it doesnt! A browser hijacker was installed on my friends machine just last week. The only difference was instead of a pop-up OK button, he gave root password instead!

 

[Pabby]

well as a starting linux disto I'd reccomend Fedora Core

I started out using Red Hat Linux and have been using it ever since (now its Fedora Core)

You could also try a LiveCD like knoppix or meepis

 

[Cdeck]

suse is my favourite followed very closely by debian, fedora and ubuntu in no particular order. pick any one and stay with it is my advice.

an os is only an os and i can honestly say i've used them all over the last thirty years. it's all in how you set it up for the user. my teenagers and wife are using linux and they have no problems. i primarily use suse but winxp pro for games and cd/dvd ripping because i have paid for the software.

 

[Nothinman]

Its a smaller memroy footprint for older systems. I never found 2.6.x to be all that snappy on say a P166 with EDO memory.

That's pretty vague, 2.6 has a lot of things that can be removed to make it smaller and with the added preemptiveness (if that's a word) should make it perform better interactively.

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: Seeruk
I think what is being alluded to in this post is something a little more basic...

Here is a fact...for free... no charge.... I'll give this to you as I am a nice guy.....

AN IDIOT ON WINDOWS IS STILL AN IDIOT ON LINUX

Now what does that pearl of wisdom mean? It means someone who can't read in windows still won't read in linux! The newspapers, the interweb, jeezuz even my grandparents are screaming with scare stories about don't click this, don't visit these sites, and whatever you do - DON'T PRESSS THAT RED BUTTON!

But what do the idiots do? Nothing that is advised to them thats for sure. They still scavenge for free porn (ooo all I have to do is install this free program for porn?? CoOool), they still open attachments called freecar.exe and they still haven't the faintest idea of what the hell they are doing.

You would think linux would make them safer but it doesnt! A browser hijacker was installed on my friends machine just last week. The only difference was instead of a pop-up OK button, he gave root password instead!

Wow, where did he get this browser hijack that asked for the root password? I would wonder what person would be targeting linux machines.

Even with my root password, there is a very very very limited amount of things you can do, as root has NO remote access, you have to get in remotely on my nonstandard SSH port with one of the few user accounts that has ssh access. Those all have very complex passwords, and I use keys to connect.


Back on point, it's much harder for a standard user to fubar their linux box then it is for a windows user. They can, at best, hose their account, but not the full box. My brother in law doesn't have the root password

 

[Thump553]

Inspector Jihad, thanks for starting an exellent topic and thank you to those who posted on topic.

I'm also planning on a small leap into linux in the near future. I have copies of both Fedora Core 4 and Ubantu (sp?. I'm guessing I will try the Ubantu first. A couple quick additional questions:

(1) I will be using an old Asrock K7V88 motherboard. Asrock's site has Windows dirvers for VIA, the onboard LAN, audio, etc. but doesn't mention Linux. Am I SOL with this board?

(2) Will 512 MB memory be sufficient? How about 256 MB?

(3) Any tricks to networking this with the rest of my computers?

(4) Any reccommendations for forums, websites, etc. for Linux beginners?

 

[Nothinman]

(1) I will be using an old Asrock K7V88 motherboard. Asrock's site has Windows dirvers for VIA, the onboard LAN, audio, etc. but doesn't mention Linux. Am I SOL with this board?

Without having the hardware to test on myself it's hard to say, but it looks like the onboard LAN and audio should both be fine.

(2) Will 512 MB memory be sufficient? How about 256 MB?

I would consider 256M to be the absolute minimum, 512M should be fine but more is always better with regards to memory =)

(3) Any tricks to networking this with the rest of my computers?

Depends on what you want to do with it. If you need to share files from it, install Samba and it'll appear just like any other Windows box on the network. Hopefully anyway, Windows networking can be tricky. If all you want to do is get to shares on another box, you shouldn't need any extra software.

(4) Any reccommendations for forums, websites, etc. for Linux beginners?

The main 2 forums I frequent are this and the one hosted by Arstechnica. Also if you're comfortable with IRC you can join #linux on irc.arstechnica.com, help can be had much quicker in a non-forum format. But your biggest asset will be your willingness to learn and patience, don't expect everything to work as you expect it from the start. If you're not willing to make an effort to learn the system you'll just end up wasting your, and probably other's, time.

 

[Cdeck]

(2) Will 512 MB memory be sufficient? How about 256 MB?

On the 256 Mb system, use the Gnome desktop. Ubuntu comes with Gnome as the desktop (shell) interface. The other main desktop is called KDE and uses over 100 Mb over Gnome.