Llano Demo

[IntelUser2000]

Why would Intel use a 230+ mm^2 sandy bridge vs a 75mm^2 E350?
Intel are makeing new Atom CPUs for that.

Sandy Bridge 4 core is 216mm2. 2 core version is 149mm2.

Intel drivers wherent working with their finished product in the AT preview of the zacate.

AMD compared Zacate against Pentium, and the Pentium lost with the older drivers, then Anand tested with newer drivers.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

I don't care about how a system was configured by OEM as far as Ram so long as its at spec. If intel mobile is speced at 1600 on memory thats what should be used. Amd made a choice as to how to spec here.

Intel doesn't officially support 1600 on any of their lower end mobile chips...

http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=53463&processor=i7-2635QM&spec-codes=SR030

(as opposed to - http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=52227&processor=i7-2820QM&spec-codes=SR00U,SR012)

 

[Nemesis 1]

How confident are you that HD3000 will be on notebooks competing with the price of an E350?

I'm not very confident of that. Intel has a track record of neeutering their bottom end. Not just cutting out features, but completely gutting it. None of the announced SB CPUs are price competitive with an E350. Do you have a link to one that is?

Why would a company make a comparison to something that is in a higher price class? They'd have to be completely retarded. Put yourself in their marketing team's shoes. Would you honestly compare an E350 to a CPU projected to be in machines 20-50% higher priced than yours? Or would you compare to machines that are in a similar price range?

It seems like you're being purposefully obtuse just to derail the thread, because you can't really question these decisions, can you?

The e 350 isn't even in the ballgame if tablets are the big deal this year . Zacata at 8 watts isn't going into a tablet that will be meaningfull . Oaktrails is up against NV and Arm here and imagination tech . Oaktrail at 3 watts is still a little power hungry. Until intel gets atom to 32nm rather than the present 45nm its a tuff road for intel . But the very lowend notebooks for zacata means little to intel . llano selling in a notebook if its IGP is all that if sold at the 400 500 dollar range would be stupid of AMD . They need to market to gamers with this platform . and the tablets will cut deep into the zacata market. Like I said if AMD llano is that good on graphics AMD needs to price it accordingly or lose out on margines

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Yes I do . Weres the bandwidth going to come from? I expect llano to have maybe 15-20 better performance . Intels IGPs use to be crapp. But their HD 3000 slaped around the AMD discrete card last generation pretty dam well. On the low end, did it not?

Looks like it trades punches with the HD5450...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/intel-hd-graphics-2000-3000_7.html#sect2

and the HD5570 stomps on it...

 

[VirtualLarry]

I recall Ats preview of zacata . AMD tried to pull wool over eyes but ananda called them on it . So was allowed to reconfigure and still the compare wasn't correct . Because many after said that zacata had = graphics to SB that AT previewed. We all kmow how that turned out now don't we?

I remember that too. AMD had used the released drivers for the Intel IGP, and the IE9 test showed up slower than the AMD Zacate. But AMD were so sure of Zacate, they let AT reconfigure their stuff, and AT used a beta driver or something with the Intel IGP, and it was finally about equal to AMD in the IE9 test, which really is just a test of Direct2D features.

But the gaming benchmarks, even with the newer Intel drivers, were consistent with the original benchmarks. The Intel really was just that much slower in 3D gaming performance.

So stop trying to spin that incident to say that the Intel turned out better, because it didn't.

 

[Arkadrel]

Nemesis why are you quoteing Concillian talking about Notebooks, then your talking about Tablets?

...and the tablets will cut deep into the zacata market.

Why? have you tried to play games on a touch screen? man it sucks... you need a mouse and a keyboard to really play.... a netbook will have that, until tablets get that, or arm moves into netbooks I dont think it ll steal any market from the netbooks gamers.

 

[Idontcare]

This test really isn't surprising since the workload used in the video is going to murder Intel's graphics. In a straight up CPU shootout, we'd probably see just the opposite.

That's a good point. They are obviously going to play to their strong hand, at the same time my current laptop with an Intel graphics chip just chugs like that in normal operations so I don't think they are overselling the downsides to the Intel stuff.

 

[Mopetar]

Why? have you tried to play games on a touch screen? man it sucks... you need a mouse and a keyboard to really play.... a netbook will have that, until tablets get that, or arm moves into netbooks I dont think it ll steal any market from the netbooks gamers.

It really depends on the game. Something like Angry Birds works pretty well on a touch screen. I'll admit that trying to shoehorn a game designed for a keyboard and mouse onto a device lacking both may be a substandard experience, but there are plenty of games that work fine with a touch screen.

Hell, we may see a revival of point and click adventure games. How much would something like Grim Fandango suffer for being ported to a tablet? Look at tablets as an opportunity to game differently. If you like shooters, no one is going to blame you for sticking with a more traditional setup, but there are plenty of games that work without traditional controls. Look to the Nintendo DS for some good examples.

 

[Mopetar]

That's a good point. They are obviously going to play to their strong hand, at the same time my current laptop with an Intel graphics chip just chugs like that in normal operations so I don't think they are overselling the downsides to the Intel stuff.

Just out of curiosity what Intel graphics do you have? I've been considering picking up a notebook and sticking with the integrated Intel graphics keeps the cost down and battery life up.

The new SB graphics are better, but I've seen notebooks with some of the older generation parts and they're absolute trash. Look no further than Apple still shipping C2D notebooks because the Arrandale graphics were laughable. I just want to know if the newest generation will still be a letdown.

 

[Arkadrel]

How much would something like Grim Fandango suffer for being ported to a tablet?

O_O <--- my eyes right now.

Grim fandango was the BEST game, man I had alot of fun/laughs with that.
Thats right up there with FF7 for me, old goodie. They should make a sequal to it.

 

[itsmydamnation]

The e 350 isn't even in the ballgame if tablets are the big deal this year . Zacata at 8 watts isn't going into a tablet that will be meaningfull . Oaktrails is up against NV and Arm here and imagination tech . Oaktrail at 3 watts is still a little power hungry. Until intel gets atom to 32nm rather than the present 45nm its a tuff road for intel . But the very lowend notebooks for zacata means little to intel . llano selling in a notebook if its IGP is all that if sold at the 400 500 dollar range would be stupid of AMD . They need to market to gamers with this platform . and the tablets will cut deep into the zacata market. Like I said if AMD llano is that good on graphics AMD needs to price it accordingly or lose out on margines

there is a 5watt, 1ghz dual core version of the C-50. they reduced 4 watts of power by removing all the extra IO you wouldn't have on a tablet. 5 watt under load is tablet market. the bigger question is idle power and low usage power usage, that is what determines normal usage battery life. If they need to reduce TDP more then they can lower clock or go to single CPU.

you seem very keen to push dirt on AMD at any and every point, how about getting the story straight first before doing so?

 

[Idontcare]

Just out of curiosity what Intel graphics do you have? I've been considering picking up a notebook and sticking with the integrated Intel graphics keeps the cost down and battery life up.

The new SB graphics are better, but I've seen notebooks with some of the older generation parts and they're absolute trash. Look no further than Apple still shipping C2D notebooks because the Arrandale graphics were laughable. I just want to know if the newest generation will still be a letdown.

It is an older laptop, I think it has the 965 Express IGP, in any event it is dreadful. Even simple stuff such as scrolling in a web browser is like watching a slideshow.

I've no doubt SB's IGP is leaps and bounds better, but I also have no doubt that Llano's IGP is leaps and bounds better still.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I am not pushing dirt on AMD just saying until we see real result AMD marketing isn't trustworthy. As in recent history starting in 07. Remember the PH I performance BS. Which it turned out to be. Than you bring up zacata 5 watt part . Is that part released and does it come close to the 18 watt or even the 8 watt version in performance or were clocks cut even further . Does it operate without a fan in a closed case . Intel atom was too hot for tablets. I think NV will get more market share than both Intel and AMD combined un this market and there are other players. the 400-500 dollar market will likely go to tablets instead . Zacata at 5 watts isn't the 18 watt version at all .

 

[drizek]

Sandy Bridge in the new Macbook Pro 13" is worse than the 320M in the Macbook Air, more or less across the board. It loses worse in some benchmarks than others.

So basically you are looking at something like a 310M with worse drivers. Not terrible, but with Optimus now an option, I really don't see myself getting a Sandy Bridge laptop without an AMD/nVidia card. If you aren't looking for hardcore 1080p gaming, Llano would probably be the best balance of performance, system size, power consumption, cost, software reliability, etc.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Sandy Bridge 4 core is 216mm2. 2 core version is 149mm2.



AMD compared Zacate against Pentium, and the Pentium lost with the older drivers, then Anand tested with newer drivers.

If I may ask what driver version AT used was it 8 15 10 2246 I know it wasn't 2276. We are talking about the HD graphics here or are you referring to HD3000

 

[IntelUser2000]

It is an older laptop, I think it has the 965 Express IGP, in any event it is dreadful. Even simple stuff such as scrolling in a web browser is like watching a slideshow.

I've no doubt SB's IGP is leaps and bounds better, but I also have no doubt that Llano's IGP is leaps and bounds better still.

Maybe the hard drive is dying.

I've seen geforce 8200 IGP based laptops that get single-digit fps in WoW with settings all at low. Usually when they are too slow there are problems with the system itself.

 

[Mopetar]

I am not pushing dirt on AMD just saying until we see real result AMD marketing isn't trustworthy.

Uh, that video is a real result unless you think the footage was faked. They have an actual Llano chip, albeit with some undisclosed specifications, running against a named Intel CPU with the remainder of the parts being equal.

As I've said the workload is obviously slanted in AMD's favor, but it's an actual result. You can say that the workload is unrealistic and you may have a point to that, but this is a REAL result. Whether that result is indicative of other results remains to be seen, but there's no arguing with this particular result unless you believe it's fabricated. If that's the case, by all means go ahead and provide some evidence. Otherwise the only thing you can argue is the relevance of the result to real world usage scenarios.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I am not pushing dirt on AMD just saying until we see real result AMD marketing isn't trustworthy. As in recent history starting in 07. Remember the PH I performance BS. Which it turned out to be. Than you bring up zacata 5 watt part . Is that part released and does it come close to the 18 watt or even the 8 watt version in performance or were clocks cut even further . Does it operate without a fan in a closed case . Intel atom was too hot for tablets. I think NV will get more market share than both Intel and AMD combined un this market and there are other players. the 400-500 dollar market will likely go to tablets instead . Zacata at 5 watts isn't the 18 watt version at all .

PH1 was shit, everyone knows it, get over it.

i answered your other questions in my post. C-50 is 8 watts @ 1ghz dual core, this version is 5 watts @ 1ghz dual core CPU/GPU performance is the same as the C-50 . power saving comes from memory configuration and removing IO.

most of your post doesn't make much sense, who ever said 5watt APU == 18 watt APU? but then TDP doesn't matter for battery life in normal user operations and i haven't seen any figures on idle/low usage power draw for these APU's.

windows 7 based 5 watt APU
http://tablets-planet.com/2011/03/0...ng-10-inch-android-3-0-and-windows-7-tablets/

here is a challenge for you, link me one post where your optimistic or even fair in your comparisons of bobcat/bulldozer/llano. I can easily find you lots where you negative and dismissive.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Nemesis why are you quoteing Concillian talking about Notebooks, then your talking about Tablets?



Why? have you tried to play games on a touch screen? man it sucks... you need a mouse and a keyboard to really play.... a netbook will have that, until tablets get that, or arm moves into netbooks I dont think it ll steal any market from the netbooks gamers.

So your going to ignor all the nice tablets we seen at CES this year thats had keyboards and joy sticks and such .

 

[Mopetar]

PH1 was shit, everyone knows it, get over it.

i answered your other questions in my post. C-50 is 8 watts @ 1ghz dual core, this version is 5 watts @ 1ghz dual core CPU/GPU performance is the same as the C-50 . power saving comes from memory configuration and removing IO.

The other problem with the straight TDP comparison is that it amounts to almost nothing if the majority of the workload is handled by dedicated hardware. For many common tasks in phones and tablets, the actual ARM cores don't do terribly much. If you're playing a video, there's some dedicated hardware decoding it. If you just took a picture, there's some dedicated hardware that's processing the image. If you're listening to a song, surprise, surprise, there's some dedicated hardware for that too.

The ARM cores still have lower power draws, but if for the vast majority of the time the actual cores aren't being used, it won't make a huge difference over the long run. Also considering that Windows won't run on ARM yet, any Windows based tablets are going to run on either Bobcat or Atom chips.

 

[Nemesis 1]

PH1 was shit, everyone knows it, get over it.

i answered your other questions in my post. C-50 is 8 watts @ 1ghz dual core, this version is 5 watts @ 1ghz dual core CPU/GPU performance is the same as the C-50 . power saving comes from memory configuration and removing IO.

most of your post doesn't make much sense, who ever said 5watt APU == 18 watt APU? but then TDP doesn't matter for battery life in normal user operations and i haven't seen any figures on idle/low usage power draw for these APU's.

windows 7 based 5 watt APU

here is a challenge for you, link me one post where your optimistic or even fair in your comparisons of bobcat/bulldozer/llano. I can easily find you lots where you negative and dismissive.

Name me one post or topic were BD/llano have been shown in real reviews . Ya zacata looks alright . But not in this range. The 5 watt i haven't seen any performance numbers . you best check the title of this topic . Its a llano vs SB AMD marketing video . Its a hype topic with nothing legit about it.

You act as if the cheap mobill market is going to be a big hit . If zacate was all that even @ 5 watts . AMD should not have gotten rid of DIRK. He went for a reason . Zacate at 5 watts should have been a great lifeline. LLano according to this video kills SB. and you guys and many others have BD for the WIN . SO why the hell is DIRK and friends gone .

 

[Nemesis 1]

PH1 was shit, everyone knows it, get over it.

i answered your other questions in my post. C-50 is 8 watts @ 1ghz dual core, this version is 5 watts @ 1ghz dual core CPU/GPU performance is the same as the C-50 . power saving comes from memory configuration and removing IO.

most of your post doesn't make much sense, who ever said 5watt APU == 18 watt APU? but then TDP doesn't matter for battery life in normal user operations and i haven't seen any figures on idle/low usage power draw for these APU's.

windows 7 based 5 watt APU
http://tablets-planet.com/2011/03/0...ng-10-inch-android-3-0-and-windows-7-tablets/

here is a challenge for you, link me one post where your optimistic or even fair in your comparisons of bobcat/bulldozer/llano. I can easily find you lots where you negative and dismissive.

Just so your aware I want BD to beat SB more than you do . Than lets do a price check . LOL

 

[Mopetar]

Name me one post or topic were BD/llano have been shown in real reviews

This post shows a real video review of a Llano CPU. Are you disputing the authenticity of the video?

It's not a complete review by any means and it's pretty obvious AMD selected a scenario where they're going to look good, but that doesn't make it any less real.

 

[busydude]

Its a llano vs SB AMD marketing video . Its a hype topic with nothing legit about it.

.. and you post a video showing E-350 Vs P6000 and blast the marketing team. I don't understand why you get so riled up..

 

[Nemesis 1]

Uh, that video is a real result unless you think the footage was faked. They have an actual Llano chip, albeit with some undisclosed specifications, running against a named Intel CPU with the remainder of the parts being equal.

As I've said the workload is obviously slanted in AMD's favor, but it's an actual result. You can say that the workload is unrealistic and you may have a point to that, but this is a REAL result. Whether that result is indicative of other results remains to be seen, but there's no arguing with this particular result unless you believe it's fabricated. If that's the case, by all means go ahead and provide some evidence. Otherwise the only thing you can argue is the relevance of the result to real world usage scenarios.

Just tell me here and now what speed llano was running at . What speed was intels IGP at was , turbo on or off What speed was llano graphics running at . The video may be legit and all but lets see how Intel actually runs on that game , That was a flash game was it not or did i miss something . As far as I know intel wasn't into gaming with IGP until the first HD graphics the first of which was a step forward HD3000 was a leap forward and IB which follows closely behind the llano release will be another leap , Even tho AT has said it will only be 16 shaders Which may be true or not , But I wagers its clockspeed will be very close to 2ghz.

If you think intel won't show results for a real working IB your sadly mistaken . When llano is released intel will show performance at fall IDF of IB . llano is a 3rd qt release is it not?