Llano Demo

[Nemesis 1]

Interestingly enough, Apple moved their MacbookPro's to ATI GPU's

Not so interesting . As apple moved to AMD on discrete I moved to NV graphics . Bought my first NV card yesterday for personnel use yesterday , The first since the TI series,

Apple going to AMD means nothing. Read Ats preview of ipod 2 . Than wait for the real review The imaginatiion Tech IGP will be = to or better than tegra II. Intel IB will Do everthing the AMD APU can do . As it is now SB can likely do CL Intel hasn't said it can't nor have they said it could. It cann't do tess. Thats why its not DX11. But like SB hardware for decoding videos at fast speeds intels tess will likely surprise.

Ya this is mostly a speculation thread, As one member put it . Intels IB will have to be 3x faster to compete with LLano which I speculate to be nonsense. I would like that to be true . But I in noway believe AMD management is that stupid, It would kill the graphics card market. Amd has no reason to do this. Intel on the other hand has everthing to gain and nothing to lose by this type of move , No SB won't do it .

Being a speculation thread I have to Assume Intel bought something from NV for 1.5 billion dollars. IB will likely be very very interesting . It would be so cool if intel and NV made somesort of cuda deal . Chances are small to non existant for this , But if they did that would be interesting. I do know Intel bought something from NV its just a matter of time we all find out .

Apple announcing thunderbolt ties Apple to Intel for sometime to come

 

[wahdangun]

i think this Llano will be a game changer for use PC gamer, so people can make cheap PC game, and make developer to push more. i mean the GPU on Llano is faster than console (ps3 and Xbox 360) so when dell generic use this it will have graphically superior out of the box than console and maybe Dell can start bundling their PC with several killer PC games title like BF 3 or DNF ?? even with lowered setting its still more beautiful and it will spark some new pc gamer audience and encourage developer to release more PC exclusive title or make more proper port

 

[Nemesis 1]

Tens of MB caches, massive binaries, piss poor peformance in code with tons of indirect branches straight out of a standard compiler, static scheduling, putting tons of their best and brightest on the porject in a final effort to make it profitable (successful), once it became obvious that compilers weren't there yet?

I don't see any of that in BD, or for that matter, any other modern general-purpose CPU. No doubt Itanium offers excellent R&D results, and has probably paid for itself in x86 developments, but from the ISA on up, it's not a good general-purpose CPU. The idea that hardware is inferior to software in terms of scheduling and prediction requires either (a) additional instructions doing speculation and on-CPU memory management running as part of every thread, and/or (b) assuming that unique inputs do not create unique outputs, regarding good branch prediction and memory fetching formulas and algorithms (which would allow them to be added to IA64 CPUs, to provide a, "have your cake, and eat it too," result, if it weren't generally false).

It's not just 64-bit addressing, but that the Itanium would have needed to have much lower power consumption, and much lower cost, with no detriment to integer performance, for it to not fall flat as a mainstream CPU. The Itanium requires specific optimizations per application to perform decently, also, if you don't get lucky compiling it, which is not something mainstream developers will do. Some will be willing to have someone go in and take it from performing OK to performing great; but most need to be able give the code to something like GCC, MSVCC, etc., and use the result. The K8 took IA64's mainstream adoption from being a wasting disease to being smacked by a truck. Even w/o the K8, it still would not have happened.

EPIC might have been where Intel was heading, but the rest of the world wasn't. EPIC for certain tasks, like heavy duty number crunching, works pretty well. Most people don't do much of that (at least, not at the cost of other workloads), and hardware scheduling and speculation still haven't reached their limits, by a long shot. IA64 for the mainstream was no more a good idea than a hundreds-of-watts 10GHz desktop CPU was. Intel was in its own little world, acting as though the wants and needs of computer buyers were irrelevant.

All that to slam a product that makes more $ now than The whole AMD server line .

FMA4 is what I was looking for . Intel is suppose to use FMA3 on haswell but could use FMA4 , we may also see it on IB .

 

[Nemesis 1]

In post 151 I forgot to mention that Intel/Apple combined own 45% of Imagination . So these 2 combined can move that company in the direction that plays to them .

 

[Nemesis 1]

i think this Llano will be a game changer for use PC gamer, so people can make cheap PC game, and make developer to push more. i mean the GPU on Llano is faster than console (ps3 and Xbox 360) so when dell generic use this it will have graphically superior out of the box than console and maybe Dell can start bundling their PC with several killer PC games title like BF 3 or DNF ?? even with lowered setting its still more beautiful and it will spark some new pc gamer audience and encourage developer to release more PC exclusive title or make more proper port

I don't disagee with what your saying at all . Be mindful here however.LLANO is a 3rd qt product. Intel has taken note of AMDs Videos if that video is a lie. When AMD releases llano . Intel WILL show IB performance just like they did with C2D thats how intel handles AMD hype. Its a good way to do things . Now this preview won't be for us as oems are the target so intel doesn't have to show us anything. But they will to kill the hypemachine with real true benchmarks , Intel for all of its misadventures truely walks like an egyptian .

The walk like an egyptian is usede here by myself to show how the masses can act not in villant behavior but organized well planned peaseful assembly. Something that has been lost in the USA Wisconsin is a good example . Kent state is even better. The MUELLER family is a good example for we the people they lost so much and gave us Much

 

[Idontcare]

All that to slam a product that makes more $ now than The whole AMD server line .

This fact is often overlooked in these arguments, thanks for pointing it out.

Last I heard Itanium revenue for Intel is around $4B per year. And that's all based on shipping 90nm and 65nm products.

The 32nm Itanium products are only going to make that annual revenue number go higher.

 

[piesquared]

I don't disagee with what your saying at all . Be mindful here however.LLANO is a 3rd qt product. Intel has taken note of AMDs Videos if that video is a lie. When AMD releases llano . Intel WILL show IB performance just like they did with C2D thats how intel handles AMD hypep. Its a good way to do things . Now this preview won't be for us as oems are the target so intel doesn't have to show us anything. But they will to kill the hypemachine with real true benchmarks , Intel for all of its misadventures truely walks like an egyptian .

The walk like an egyptian is usede here by myself to show how the masses can act not in villant behavior but organized well planned peaseful assembly. Something that has been lost in the USA Wisconsin is a good example . Kent state is even better. The MUELLER family is a good example for we the people they lost so much and gave us Much

And maybe AMD will show Trinity, Krishna and Witchita at IB launch. And don't forget about Komodo, Sepang, Terramir and next gen desktop and professional graphics shortly after. Intel has IB (and maybe some iteration of the woefully inadequate Atom)? Sounds kind of anemic to me.

 

[Nemesis 1]

And maybe AMD will show Trinity, Krishna and Witchita at IB launch. And don't forget about Komodo, Sepang, Terramir and next gen desktop and professional graphics shortly after. Intel has IB (and maybe some iteration of the woefully inadequate Atom)? Sounds kind of anemic to me.

Oh ya thats good AMD has all these ready to roll out . All done on 32nm . This is a speculation thread . But your not speculating your throwing names around of non existing products. IB is already in the hands of Intel as a product. and the very late release of llano opened the door for intel to ruin the llano party . It will happen . What your saying is pure nonsense . The 543 is no joke as your about to find out.

 

[busydude]

IB is already in the hands of Intel as a product.

That may be true, it may be an existing product for Intel.. but unless it makes it into retail no one cares. Hell.. even first gen larrabee existed before being scraped.. but in the minds of regular customers larrabee never existed.

The same goes for Llano, BD, S2011.. etc. If regular customers do not have access to a (consumer)product.. then it simply does not exist.

 

[piesquared]

Oh ya thats good AMD has all these ready to roll out . All done on 32nm . This is a speculation thread . But your not speculating your throwing names around of non existing products. IB is already in the hands of Intel as a product. and the very late release of llano opened the door for intel to ruin the llano party . It will happen . What your saying is pure nonsense . The 543 is no joke as your about to find out.

Are you aware that there is not a lot of difference between TSMC's 28nm (which, contrary to your assertion, will be the node for Krishna and Witchita?) And are you aware that Glofo's 32nm SOI2 process is extremely good? I'm willing to bet you've seen those reports, so what gives? You sound like an intel shareholder ( and please don't accuse me of getting personal. Unless you consider it an insult to be an intel shareholder of course. If you do, you might have a point! )

 

[Nemesis 1]

The only stock I have now that amounts to anything is Apple, Which I bought at 5 and change, So your saying that AMD has llano now and these others waiting in the wings with 28nm. Good luck with that. Intels a bad investment as far as making real monet to many stocks . Intel becomes a good investment only on a breakup.

 

[Nemesis 1]

That may be true, it may be an existing product for Intel.. but unless it makes it into retail no one cares. Hell.. even first gen larrabee existed before being scraped.. but in the minds of regular customers larrabee never existed.

The same goes for Llano, BD, S2011.. etc. If regular customers do not have access to a (consumer)product.. then it simply does not exist.

Your statements here are pure BS. The intel early showing of C2D proves that . History my friend although full of lies is something one must pay attention to , A good example of this is the years between 1300s to 1700s. Its something all of us should be aware of , The name Greenland was not a mistake friend.Larrabbee wasn't scraped why the lie? Knights crossing is in fact real and nights corner will be sold .

 

[Cerb]

All that to slam a product that makes more $ now than The whole AMD server line .

No, all that to argue against the revisionist history that IA64 had a chance at replacing mainstream x86 CPUs, and that it was dashed by AMD. How much money it makes has nothing to do with it (also, who doesn't make more money than AMD?).

Most buyers care about performance of blobs they can't control, output straight from MSVCC, and/or output straight from GCC (with LLVM gaining ground, lately). EPIC fails at that (not merely Itanium products, but the concept in general). For that reason, it never had a chance in the mainstream.

When the K8 came around, Itanium was barely managing against Intel's own P4 Xeons in performance alone, but even that was a miracle by Intel and Sun. That AMD's sneaky Opteron launch with x86_64 killed the Itanium is silly. It moved up the date, was a great boon for AMD, put Intel in its place ("wait, you mean we have to make products that customers like?"), and gave us a good replacement for PAE. However, IA64 was already an unattractive IA32 replacement, that nobody outside of Intel[, and it close partners,] wanted.

FMA4 is what I was looking for . Intel is suppose to use FMA3 on haswell but could use FMA4 , we may also see it on IB .

Both will perform much better than previous generations. Both will require assembly or intrinsics to make shine. Both companies get good enough support for their own extensions. Each is taking a significantly different direction in handling FP. We'll just have to see how it plays out. I'm not sure if it will be a good idea, though, for Intel to go replacing basically identical functionality, upon a single generation change.

Larrabbee wasn't scraped why the lie?

It is a fact, not a lie.
First generation Larrabee: x86 mainstream PC video card, to take on Geforces, Radeons, FireGLs, and Quadros. Where can I buy one of these? I can't, because they scrapped it.
Knights *: HPC-oriented specialized computer on a card, to be provided for niche markets.

It would be a lie to say Larrabee has no legacy, and that development ceased. It is not a lie to say they scrapped Larrabee, because the name Larrabee includes with it the baggage of retail product promises of that first generation design, which Intel never delivered on.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Your points are noted and disguarded at the same time , As it was MS conspired with AMD to bring us 64bit X86. Ia64 got hammered as far as intel even attempting to bring it to market on desktop. Its a non point . revisionist history indeed . LOL . Doesn't matter that Larrabbee will not be a gaming card . The only one that affected was Pat who got passed over and left the company for his part in the NV/AMD type hype. knights crossing is in the hands of developers and knights corner is to battle NV .

Intel as often happens changed directions . Instead intel is moving towards gaming with SOC . You can call IGP Hd 3000 a failure if you like . I call it a step in the right direction . I fully expect IB to be 2x-3x better than HD3000 even tho ananda said it would be only 16 shaders . Which I find doubtfull . After all even tho It is intels chip its is also Imagination tech , and Imaginations tech doesn't work that way . You can have up to 12 shaders or less . I fully expect 2 full cores added to Ib along with many other improvements . After all hydra is in intels pocket along with imagination tech.

 

[Idontcare]

Your points are noted and disguarded at the same time ,

:twisted: I'm not weighing in on the debate itself, but damn Nemesis you sure know how to score style points in a debate

 

[Cerb]

Your points are noted and disguarded at the same time , As it was MS conspired with AMD to bring us 64bit X86. Ia64 got hammered as far as intel even attempting to bring it to market on desktop. Its a non point . revisionist history indeed . LOL .

I don't disagree. That is an entirely different point, though. You are being as much a pro-Intel shill as anyone who thinks BD is going to run their games faster than IB. Only people in Intel wanted IA64 on the desktop, because it was a bad concept to pair with COTS. The market was begging for something else, and x86_64 turned out to be it. MS nor AMD needed to strong-arm anyone with it (Linux support was pretty good within a year, and sever-worthy within 2). Intel would have had to strong-arm everyone to get IA64 on the desktop, though, even if x86_64 had never come to be.

Doesn't matter that Larrabbee will not be a gaming card . The only one that affected was Pat who got passed over and left the company for his part in the NV/AMD type hype. knights crossing is in the hands of developers and knights corner is to battle NV .

Sure, it matters. Future chips are not the one that was scrapped, and the one that was scrapped had the code name of Larrabee. Therefore, Larrabee was scrapped. If talking about whether Larrabee was scrapped or not, Knights Corner only matters if you specify that all development related to Larrabee was scrapped, but when one says Larrabee was scrapped, they mean the proposed retail product from the first generation with that code name.

Intel as often happens changed directions . Instead intel is moving towards gaming with SOC . You can call IGP Hd 3000 a failure if you like . I call it a step in the right direction . I fully expect IB to be 2x-3x better than HD3000 even tho ananda said it would be only 16 shaders . Which I find doubtfull . After all even tho It is intels chip its is also Imagination tech , and Imaginations tech doesn't work that way . You can have up to 12 shaders or less . I fully expect 2 full cores added to Ib along with many other improvements . After all hydra is in intels pocket along with imagination tech.

Except for the Imagination part, I would agree, unless they are getting hardware documentation for the new Imagination IGP, to write their own drivers (again, the problem with those GPUs has also been entirely drivers). I would just like to see Intel work at making better graphics drivers. If they can put together such good hardware, they aught to be able to make it operate smoothly for the user, no matter what that user is doing. As it stands, it seems to usually work OK for the most minimal of corporate desktop uses, and desktop effects. I have seen no reason to believe that the hardware is at fault (throughput-type benchmarks show quite the opposite), and would find it hard to believe that Intel cannot find good developers--managing those developers, so that they apply processes to their development to enhance compatibility, smooth single-task operation, and multitasking performance (low-latency response to user input), however, could easily be a weak point, and I consider that the most likely problem area.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I think all of us here understand the importance of Drivers . What you fail to understand Is Intel only within the last 2 years has taken gaming seriously and I suspect that open CL has alot to do with this .

I also think you shouldn't use drivers as an argument as all of us here have seen that used against ATI all to often .

Now if ya don't mind I will punt the ball away .

 

[piesquared]

You mean intel hasn't been taking graphics serious all these years? Then how in the world did they get such a majority graphics share, given their woefull graphics capabilities? Surely that wasn't good for the industry!

 

[itsmydamnation]

I think all of us here understand the importance of Drivers . What you fail to understand Is Intel only within the last 2 years has taken gaming seriously and I suspect that open CL has alot to do with this .

I also think you shouldn't use drivers as an argument as all of us here have seen that used against ATI all to often .

Now if ya don't mind I will punt the ball away .

what does openCL have to do with graphics, answer sweet nothing, your logic is illogical. openCL uses gpu ALU's for compute resources it has nothing to do with any of the other parts of the chip or using ALU's for graphics workloads (thats what compute shaders are for).

AMD vidoe drivers have been good for a very long time, you get a monthly qualified release and hotfixes if you don't want to wait.

in terms of wide high throughput computing intel has had several different idea's/projects.

 

[Nemesis 1]

what does openCL have to do with graphics, answer sweet nothing, your logic is illogical. openCL uses gpu ALU's for compute resources it has nothing to do with any of the other parts of the chip or using ALU's for graphics workloads (thats what compute shaders are for).

AMD vidoe drivers have been good for a very long time, you get a monthly qualified release and hotfixes if you don't want to wait.

CL uses shaders and graphics processing units normally use shaders .ATI and NV called their cards by differant names . NV used GPU (Graphics processing unit). ATI called their VPU Video processing unit. NV being bigger everone calls both AMD/NV GPUs. Intels IGP has shaders and your on the moon on this one . Imagination has CL 1 in their units . Intel has Apple in its corner the father of CL and Apples uses Imagination products in its phones and Ipod , Apple is a very good software company . Intel owns at least 2 software companies River something and Havic or somethin like that

 

[Nemesis 1]

You mean intel hasn't been taking graphics serious all these years? Then how in the world did they get such a majority graphics share, given their woefull graphics capabilities? Surely that wasn't good for the industry!

Not for gaming . They do command the biggest market share with their pitiful IGP however . So they did something right to be the dominate player. I ran that punt back for a score.

 

[itsmydamnation]

CL uses shaders and graphics processing units normally use shaders .ATI and NV called their cards by differant names . NV used GPU (Graphics processing unit). ATI called their VPU Video processing unit. NV being bigger everone calls both AMD/NV GPUs. Intels IGP has shaders and your on the moon on this one . Imagination has CL 1 in their units . Intel has Apple in its corner the father of CL and Apples uses Imagination products in its phones and Ipod , Apple is a very good software company . Intel owns at least 2 software companies River something and Havic or somethin like that

that has nothing to do with what i said nore does it make any sense. Also its havoc. Intel has gotten into GPU's because they could see what would happen on the consumer side if they didn't. not because of compute.

open CL doesn't use MTU's or ROP's/RBE's

 

[Cerb]

I also think you shouldn't use drivers as an argument as all of us here have seen that used against ATI all to often .

...and deservedly: ATI's drivers (IE, before they were AMD's drivers) were steaming piles. Even the crappiness of the GMA500 in X (the reason I am pessimistic about Intel and Imagination pairing up) is insignificant, compared to old ATI drivers.

 

[drizek]

Absolutely.

I swore off ATI because of the experience I had with them in Linux. All of a sudden AMD comes along and the drivers go open source. Now I have no reservations whatsoever about buying an AMD card.

At one point I would have rather had integrated intel graphics over dedicated ATI graphics just because of the driver issues. Sure, the intel card was crap, but it least it had 3D acceleration.

 

[Nemesis 1]

The last 3 replies aren't worthy of a reply so you 3 get no reply on your replies.You do not get $200 dollars for passing go but instead go directly to jail.