Local honey and allergies?

[Bateluer]

http://www.mnn.com/health/allergies/blogs/does-local-honey-diminish-allergies?hpt=Sbin

Saw this cruising CNN. Any truth to it? Like a lot of people, I have bad allergies and its very common for me to blow tiny bloody chunks into tissues.

Discuss.

 

[eits]

yeah, and i've heard the same for homeopathy for allergies from a few different medical doctors (allergy specialists). it's based on the premise of having your immune system be able to recognize local pollens more readily by getting your system more used to it in small, daily doses. it seems to work for their patients.

 

[Bateluer]

yeah, and i've heard the same for homeopathy for allergies from a few different medical doctors (allergy specialists). it's based on the premise of having your immune system be able to recognize local pollens more readily by getting your system more used to it in small, daily doses. it seems to work for their patients.

Makes sense. Wonder where I can pick up locally made honey . . .Sprouts maybe?

 

[wjb663]

farmer's markets are a good source for local honey. i work at farmer's markets and my farm brings honey and i've had customers tell me the same thing. Though it's always better to ask where the honey comes from. I've been told it works by quite a few returning cutomers, but everyone's different. Just have a teaspoon a day in your tea or something, should do the trick.

 

[DougoMan]

yeah, and i've heard the same for homeopathy for allergies from a few different medical doctors (allergy specialists). it's based on the premise of having your immune system be able to recognize local pollens more readily by getting your system more used to it in small, daily doses. it seems to work for their patients.

it's not called homeopathy - that is some quack science.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

it's not called homeopathy - that is some quack science.

Homeopathy is not always quack science. For example, accupuncture has a massive backing in Western medicine due to the research basis it has for relieving pain. Also, in this case, allergies do have homeopathic solutions or treatments. Just because they're homeopathic doesn't mean they don't have a scientific basis. In this case, the honey contains small amounts of local pollens, allowing the body to reduce its response overall.

 

[eits]

it's not called homeopathy - that is some quack science.

hey, trust me, i'm not a fan of homeopathy either. however, in this case, it seems to be helpful. so, i'm not going to be an ignorant ass about it.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Homeopathy is not always quack science. For example, accupuncture has a massive backing in Western medicine due to the research basis it has for relieving pain. Also, in this case, allergies do have homeopathic solutions or treatments. Just because they're homeopathic doesn't mean they don't have a scientific basis. In this case, the honey contains small amounts of local pollens, allowing the body to reduce its response overall.

I think you are confusing the terms. Acupuncture is not part of homeopathy, but both would be considered alternative medicine.

 

[kinev]

Homeopathy is not always quack science. For example, accupuncture has a massive backing in Western medicine due to the research basis it has for relieving pain. Also, in this case, allergies do have homeopathic solutions or treatments. Just because they're homeopathic doesn't mean they don't have a scientific basis. In this case, the honey contains small amounts of local pollens, allowing the body to reduce its response overall.

Quoted to prevent backpedaling...

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I think you are confusing the terms. Acupuncture is not part of homeopathy, but both would be considered alternative medicine.

Yep, got it. Homeopathy is a subsect of alternative medicine. Forgot that homeopathy was the utilization of highly diluted substances. In this case, it's more sensible than others, like utilizing tiny doses of medication. This is like building a tolerance to a drug or poison, which has foundations in Western science.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Yep, got it. Homeopathy is a subsect of alternative medicine. Forgot that homeopathy was the utilization of highly diluted substances. In this case, it's more sensible than others, like utilizing tiny doses of medication. This is like building a tolerance to a drug or poison, which has foundations in Western science.

Agreed this does seem at least plausible, but I agree with Dougoman. I wouldn't consider this homeopathy. Homeopathy is so dumb I don't understand how people can believe it.

 

[Nik]

I don't care what it's called. Taking local honey to combat allergies worked for me for years as a kid.

 

[eits]

Agreed this does seem at least plausible, but I agree with Dougoman. I wouldn't consider this homeopathy. Homeopathy is so dumb I don't understand how people can believe it.

it's the same premise as a homeopathic allergy treatment. again, not arguing in favor of homeopathy. just saying that, for allergies, it seems to work and make sense.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

it's the same premise as a homeopathic allergy treatment. again, not arguing in favor of homeopathy. just saying that, for allergies, it seems to work and make sense.

IMO its much closer to allergen immunotherapy therapy which is an accepted part of western medicine. Western medicine actually explains the mechanism by which it works If its similar to homeopathy its only by coincidence and the homeopathic rational behind how it works is likely completely wrong.

edit: I think the saying "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" is appropriate here.

 

[Bateluer]

I'm going to try it out, allergies suck.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Yep, got it. Homeopathy is a subsect of alternative medicine. Forgot that homeopathy was the utilization of highly diluted substances. In this case, it's more sensible than others, like utilizing tiny doses of medication. This is like building a tolerance to a drug or poison, which has foundations in Western science.

Except for a substance to be considered efficacious by homeopaths it has to be diluted to the extent that it is statistically unlikely for you to find a single molecule of the 'efficacious' substance in your solution. That's not called immunotherapy. That's called drinking water.

 

[eits]

IMO its much closer to allergen immunotherapy therapy which is an accepted part of western medicine. Western medicine actually explains the mechanism by which it works If its similar to homeopathy its only by coincidence and the homeopathic rational behind how it works is likely completely wrong.

edit: I think the saying "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" is appropriate here.

yup

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Except for a substance to be considered efficacious by homeopaths it has to be diluted to the extent that it is statistically unlikely for you to find a single molecule of the 'efficacious' substance in your solution. That's not called immunotherapy. That's called drinking water.

I don't know if it says in the Homeopath's Handbook that you have to water it down that much. I don't think there's that much precision to it either way. Eating local honey does fall under allergen immunotherapy, but in this case, it likely abides by the definition of homeopathy as well.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Wikipedia, of course, needs no introduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions
The NCCAM, the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, has this to say as a brief overview of the principles of homeopathy: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#overview

I guess before you read this, I have to preface this by saying, this is not a fake. Homeopaths actually believe this.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Wikipedia, of course, needs no introduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions
The NCCAM, the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, has this to say as a brief overview of the principles of homeopathy: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#overview

I guess before you read this, I have to preface this by saying, this is not a fake. Homeopaths actually believe this.

Lmao, I can't say I've ever seen official organization's definition of homeopathy, but kudos to you for having the wherewithal to prove me wrong. Less is more, it seems Thanks for the lesson.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

My pleasure

 

[Bateluer]

Lmao, I can't say I've ever seen official organization's definition of homeopathy, but kudos to you for having the wherewithal to prove me wrong. Less is more, it seems Thanks for the lesson.

Not to derail my own thread, but after reading a little bit of that link, why are people saying its BS when there's documented proof of it working?

Homeopathy seeks to stimulate the body's ability to heal itself by giving very small doses of highly diluted substances.

Not saying homeopathy is a cure-all, nothing really is. But whats wrong with stimulating the body's ability to heal itself? Eating healthy and exercise stimulate the body's ability to heal itself, same with a variety of teas, and other supplements. Plus, a number of people have built immunities to poisons and venoms by exposing themselves to small doses.

What is it AT, anything thats not part of modern, western science is automatically bullplop? Guess the only solution to a medical problem in AT's eyes is to treat it with drugs.

 

[DougoMan]

Not to derail my own thread, but after reading a little bit of that link, why are people saying its BS when there's documented proof of it working?



Not saying homeopathy is a cure-all, nothing really is. But whats wrong with stimulating the body's ability to heal itself? Eating healthy and exercise stimulate the body's ability to heal itself, same with a variety of teas, and other supplements. Plus, a number of people have built immunities to poisons and venoms by exposing themselves to small doses.

What is it AT, anything thats not part of modern, western science is automatically bullplop? Guess the only solution to a medical problem in AT's eyes is to treat it with drugs.

The issue with homeopathy is that it requires the use of an infinitesimally small amount of substance that could not possibly have an effect on the body. Ideally the doctrine calls for, like, one molecule. It's just water at that point.

Allergy desensitization, on the other hand, uses a significant amount of the allergy causing substance. If you get allergy shots, the only proven method for allergy desensitization, the allergist will give keep giving you a higher and higher dose on allergy causing substance.

It's observable. When you get a shot you will have a mild allergic reaction, and you keep getting that dose until you no longer get the reaction. Then they give you more, you have a reaction, and they acclimate you to that dose. Eventually you can tolerate a massive amount of the allergen and are desensitized.

So it is a similar idea to homeopathy, but in practice allergy desensitization is a more scientific, logical approach.

Also, homeopathy isn't just for allergens. Its practitoners think it works for all sorts of things. Say you had syphilis. They would give you a tiny amount of syphilis virus thinking that will cure you, which is nonsense.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Not saying homeopathy is a cure-all, nothing really is. But whats wrong with stimulating the body's ability to heal itself? Eating healthy and exercise stimulate the body's ability to heal itself, same with a variety of teas, and other supplements. Plus, a number of people have built immunities to poisons and venoms by exposing themselves to small doses.

Enzymes work by having collisions between the enzyme and the substrate molecule. When they collide in a kinetically favourable way, the substrate binds to the enzyme and shit happens. So obviously, for a reaction to occur using this model, you have to have two things, an enzyme, and a substrate, in positions where they could conceivably collide.

To make this reaction faster, you can do a few things: make the molecules move faster (i.e. raise the temperature) or make more of them (increase the concentration).

The important thing to understand about solutions is that they are not made up of an infinite number of particles; while there are lots of them in any given substance, they are finite. That finite number, in fact, is avogadro's constant: 6.02x10^23 molecules per mole of substance. 1 mole is the number of molecules of carbon-12 in 12g of pure carbon-12. When chemists talk about concentrations of substances, they usually talk in moles per liter. That is, if a solution is at a concentration of 1 mol/L, for every liter of solution there are 6.02x10^23 molecules of solute in there.

The problem you come into is when you get into homeopathic dilutions. In normal chemistry, nobody would bother trying to dilute a substance down to such an extent. But homeopaths do. When they talk about solutions they talk about 20X, or 30X, or 50X. I think in a talk by James Randi he mentions seeing a solution of 100X.

In 1 liter of a 20X substance you are statistically likely to find somewhere in the order of magnitude of 6000 particles of said molecule in it. Even if the substance were botulinum, one of the most toxic substances known to man, you would not be able to physically ingest, or inject, enough solution to get enough molecules of it into you to have any effect, therapeutic or lethal, even if you could concentrate these molecules somehow in the body.

In 1 liter of a 30X substance it is unlikely in any liter of solution for there to be a single molecule of this substance in it. Literally the odds are around 1 in a million. In effect, you're now drinking plain water; in fact, I don't think even commercial water purification plants could guarantee a purity of water this high. This is to tap water what Intel's cleanest clean room is to a garbage dump.

In a liter of a 100X solution...if you did this all in one go, the amount of water needed for 1 mole of substance to get to this concentration would be inconceivably larger (more than 10^30 times, by my calculation) than the volume in the milky way galaxy.

So basically, you're kind of right in some ways. Where you're wrong is thinking that homeopathy provides this kind of treatment.

 

[Ancalagon44]

Homeopathy is not always quack science. For example, accupuncture has a massive backing in Western medicine due to the research basis it has for relieving pain. Also, in this case, allergies do have homeopathic solutions or treatments. Just because they're homeopathic doesn't mean they don't have a scientific basis. In this case, the honey contains small amounts of local pollens, allowing the body to reduce its response overall.

No, homeopathy is always quack science, 100% without exception. It is however part of the larger group of remedies called alternative medicine, some of which work.