Logitech MX510 vs. Razer Viper

[YBS1]

I've used both a 500 and 700, not the 510. It shouldn't matter as my issue with these mice was the dpi (800) which remains the same on the 510, not the speed at which they could track motion. So yes, I can plainly tell the difference in dpi between an MX and a Boomslang 2000 because of smoothness of perceived motion during a 180 spin, and during very minute pinpoint movements. I can also sense a bit of improvement with the Viper over the MXs, though it is very slight. It is however enough that combined with my personal opinion that the Viper is more comfortable than the MX, I'm going to continue to use it instead of my Boomslang for at least the time being and see how I adjust to it.

 

[hytek369]

YBS1,

what mousepad are you using?

 

[YBS1]

I've found the everglide surface to be my preference with the Boomslangs. I've not had enough time to really have a good opinion on the Viper, but as of right now I'm liking the 3M mousing surface better than the everglide or func surfaces, this may or may not change with more time.

 

[domsq]

Originally posted by: zodder
I just bought an MX510 to replace my MX700, and I have to say that I'm quite impressed by it. Glad I made the switch.

The MX510 looks pretty impressive... 5.8 Megapixel image capture for the sensor, vs. 4.7 for the standard MX optical engine. However, I could never use a 'tethered' mouse again; I love the freedom of wireless.

I've got a Logitech Cordless Desktop MX set, and I've got no complaints.

 

[nippyjun]

When does the MX510 become non-exclusive to best buy?

 

[hytek369]

Originally posted by: nippyjun
When does the MX510 become non-exclusive to best buy?

this month

 

[0roo0roo]

well isn't the red still exclusive? i dunno

 

[hytek369]

added another review

 

[ATIFanboy]

You cant tell if its only DPI that affects your preformance, you cant say that razor is better than mx mouse because you cant call all logitech mouse MX ones. 500 and 510 are very much different and if you dont have 510 dont say razor better than MX say Razor better than mx 500 and mx 700 mouse because its only ones you try.

 

[YBS1]

...you cant call all logitech mouse MX ones.

I didn't, I called the 500 and 700 MXs, because they are.

500 and 510 are very much different

No, they are very much the same, they are mildly different.

You're entitled to believe as you wish, the difference between our perspectives is this: The MX is the best mouse you've ever used, neither the MX nor the Viper is the best mouse I've used. A decent analogy of this would be let's say....You have gamed for years at 640x480 and you move to 1024x768, to you it looks incredible. Someone else has gamed at 1600x1200, 1024x768 doesn't look so great to them.

For the people wishing to make a purchase decision based upon the info in these posts, they are free to do a username search on either of us and see who they feel would more likely be correct. I'm not trying to be a salesman for the Viper, as I stated I would likely call it a draw with the advantage going to the individuals preference for precision (Viper) or handy buttons (MX). Oh yeah, it is all about the dpi...it always has been.

 

[YBS1]

Viper and MX510 Head-to-Head

As far as I know this is the only review so far they are directly compared in. As you can see the reviewer agreed almost entirely with everything I've said, though his subjective opinion was in favor of the MX's ergonomics (where as I prefer the Viper's), thus he gave the nod to the MX510. Fair enough, and had I agreed with him on which was more comfortable I'd have possibly done the same.

"Speed & Accuracy: Hands down, the Viper takes the cake here. It's a faster, more accurate mouse. I'm not entirely sure how they managed it with an "inferior" sensor, but they did. If I were to base my decision to use one of these mice based soley on speed and accuracy, I'd choose the Viper hands down."

 

[Satariel]

Originally posted by: YBS1

...you cant call all logitech mouse MX ones.

I didn't, I called the 500 and 700 MXs, because they are.

500 and 510 are very much different

No, they are very much the same, they are mildly different.

They are not mildly different, the Mx500 uses a 800dpi 8-bit report rate at 4.8 megapixels while the Mx510 use a 800dpi 12-bit report rate at 5.8 megapixels, both use the 30x30 sensor. A Razer Viper uses a 16x16 sensor at 1000dpi with unknown megapixel rate. So you see the Mx510 has a higher report rate at lower dpi, what this means is so far unknown but you can be sure that further drivers will delver further into this new feature.

THG said:

"To give you an idea, these are the distances the Viper covers to cross a 1280 screen horizontally. At maximum resolution of 1000 cpi, it needs 1.5 centimeters (approximately half an inch) which really isn't much."

On my Mx510 I get this on 800dpi so I begin to wonder a little. People just look at the Dpi when there is also the report rate, megapixel rate and size of the sensor to take into account. If you look at tech alone the Mx510 sensor is way superior to that of the Viper.

 

[Satariel]

"Like any other Logitech mouse, setup is easy, working fine out of the box without drivers, but with enhanced function if you install mouseware. As with most mice, simply plugging it into the USB port can qualify as setting it up. You can also adapt it to PS/2 if that's your choice."

ROFL, well this just proves how good that review was, everyone knows you must use the PS/2 port to use the 200hz refreshrate. He probably did the same with the Viper so I guess it evens it out, but it just proves how little that reviewer knows.

 

[Satariel]

Sorry for all these multiple posts but since I can´t edit posts (how dumb is that?) I must make them.

"As with most mice, simply plugging it into the USB port can qualify as setting it up."

Is is just me or does it appear as if he didn´t install the Special 9.80 drivers NEEDED to get the full effect out of the Mx510??? Nowhere does he mention the drivers wich makes the mouse about 3 times as sensitive as with the windows drivers. Seriously I don´t know perhaps the Viper really is better I don´t say that but this review is in my book not to be taken as a judgement of anything since it´s clearly written by someone not fully knowing what he does.

 

[Satariel]

The sensor: The previous MX series used a 4.7 megapixel sensor. The MX510 is using a 5.8 megapixel sensor, which means that it is gathering more information and providing greater accuracy and precision. When moving the mouse rapidly across a desktop there is a process of reporting movement. Nearly all optical mice report 7 bits to the 7th power. This means that there tends to be gaps when moving great distances rapidly. The new MX510 has a 12 bit report rate that is 12 to 12th power. With this much detailed information, every minute movement of the mouse is registered as on screen movement. A general user would see this as overkill, but a gamer that has experienced these issues in the past will see the benefits. Many of our engineers who are hardcore gamers have finally made the move from ball based mouse to optical due to this mouse.

More on the 12-bit vs. 8-bit mice:

An improved 12-bit data path allows the MX510 to respond to movements 3x as fast as current 8-bit mice can handle. This benefits high-paced FPS games, allowing for quicker turns and effortless 180's.

http://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=617241

 

[YBS1]

Like any other Logitech mouse, setup is easy, working fine out of the box without drivers, but with enhanced function if you install mouseware. As with most mice, simply plugging it into the USB port can qualify as setting it up.

It appears to me he was simply stating it would work without any drivers, by mentioning with enhanced function with mouseware it appears as though he did install them.

For all the "superior optical technology" employed by the latest MX, no review that I've seen has mentioned a noticable improvement in tracking smoothness or accuracy over the MX500. In fact one said if you already had a 500 there was no reason to upgrade. Also, if these improvements are so earth shattering, does that make all the opinions/reviews of the original MX inaccurate, afterall not a month ago they were singing it's praises as the greatest optical available, this new version must have fixed some glaring problem, right?. Now it's crap compared to the 510?

Look, all I'm trying to say is that for me DPI is what it's all about. I don't fly the mouse across the entire pad in 1/100ths of a second, the improvements made in the 510 to improve it's high speed tracking abilities amount to a hill of beans to me as the 500 didn't lose tracking ability in the first place. If my mouse moves more than 1.5-2 inches in any single movement that means it fell off the damn desk.

 

[Satariel]

There is a noticeable difference from my old Mx310 wich sports the 500 sensor, the Mx510 is way more sensitive and accurate. Again I only need to move it around 1-2 Cm to cross the entire screen in 1280x1024. Some have said that the old Mx500 sensors really wasn´t 800dpi but just 400 due to a bug and that it´s now fixed in the Mx510. If all logitech had to do was to increase Dpi then why didn´t they do that with that huge 30x30 sensor? To me it sounds as if the Mx510 gets more info per square inch than the Viper since it has 1. A 30x30 sensor and 2. 12-bit report rate. Also most review sites are sponsored and very biased and can not be trusted. The only one I trust is Anandtech. I mean if you are going to put up the Viper against a logitech mouse why on earth did they choose the Mx500 when the Mx510 was out? Obviously because they wanted the Viper to win, there is no other reasonable explanation.

 

[YBS1]

Yeah, they are all routing for the Viper.

The one review I linked to didn't even declare the Viper as the winner, they simply stated what I did...The Viper romps in speed, accuracy and smoothness of motion.

 

[Satariel]

Originally posted by: YBS1
Yeah, they are all routing for the Viper.

The one review I linked to didn't even declare the Viper as the winner, they simply stated what I did...The Viper romps in speed, accuracy and smoothness of motion.

Well the thing is don´t think it do, that reviewer on that site is clearly incompetent at testing hardware so we are yet to see that test being properly done.

 

[YBS1]

Yes, he's clearly incompetent because you assumed he didn't install the software, and he must be an idiot for not using the ps2 port instead of usb....Oh wait, nearly everyone else is using the usb connection over ps2 when there is a choice as well.

 

[Satariel]

What I want to see is the tracking speed, how much do you have to move the mouse at certain settings to move the windows pointer across the screen for instance? Wich games did he test it in, what applications, what settings did he use, what drivers? etc The comparison is 1 page long it´s incredibly lacking. Sure I don´t know if he used the drivers or not but it really doesn´t seem like it. I mean why doesn´t he mention the special 9.80 drivers that only can be used with the Mx510? If you don´t use them then you won´t access the 12-bit reporting, wich causes the mouse to be way less sensitive. A leap of 8 to 12 bit is a significant one, I really don´t know all the implications but it seems to me a major leap has been made. Again I say there is a major difference between a Mx500 sensor and a Mx510 simply cos I have tried both. I haven´t tried the Viper so I don´t really know anything about that one, but the bottom line is the technology in a Mx510 is superior to the Viper. You only look at the Dpi alone when there also is the report rate. I´m not sure how to do the math but 1000 Dpi at 8-bit such be less than 800 Dpi at 12-bit, or am I wrong?

 

[YBS1]

Dpi is simply a measurement of how many distinct points can be measured in a given inch of travel. The 12 bit data path does not act as any kind of "multiplier" of this, it still can only see 800 distinct points in an inch of travel. It appears as though all the changes Logitech has made are to improve fast tracking ability, which is fine as the MX was a fine product to begin with. I'm sure there are many players who use lower sensitivity settings which require them to track using the whole mousepad, for which this mouse would be ideal. For me, the 500 was near impossible to cause a loss of tracking under fast movement anyway. For a high sensitivity user you depend upon DPI, and this requirement increases as you increase screen resolution.

A leap of 8 to 12 bit is a significant one, I really don´t know all the implications but it seems to me a major leap has been made.

The leap is significant, you don't know the implications, yet it was major? Hmm.....

 

[Satariel]

The question is: Is the 16x16 sensor and 8-bit data path enough to utilize the 1000dpi on the Viper? If so why on earth did Logitech jump to 12-bit, if it´s useless I mean? With all their money and a better sensor to begin with why didn´t they just increase Dpi to 1000? Also it appears that going from a 8 to 12 data path would be an improvement yes since it´s never been done before (AFAIK) and I don´t know what it fully means that´s all. Could be that since the Mx500 was flawed with things such as negative acceleration they needed a better data path to use those 800dpi. That leads me to think how can the Viper then use 1000dpi with their smaller sensor? Either it doesn´t or Logitech have some serious design flaws in their Mx mice.

 

[YBS1]

They didn't increase the DPI on the MX to 1000 because no such sensor exists. Razer did it kind of by smoke and mirrors. They didn't use the Agilent recommended lens for this sensor, they used a custom one. The side effect to this is it slightly reduces the 14 inches per second tracking abililty of the sensor. Which is why I said a low sensitivity user may very well be better served by an MX, as those users have to move far greater distances to target in a given time frame. As you can see there are a ton of variables to choosing the mouse that is right for each individual person.

The question is: Is the 16x16 sensor and 8-bit data path enough to utilize the 1000dpi on the Viper?

Yes, in fact the higher the DPI the less dependent it is on the size of the "tracking grid".

 

[Satariel]

Damn this confirms what i suspected: That the Viper indeed is better at very high sensitivity settings. This because I assume you don´t need a big sensor to track very small movements. So if I have gotten this correct it scans 1000 dots per inch at a very small area causing it to be incredibly sensitive. And since it has a smaller sensor it only needs a 8-bit interface. However some people have reported that the Viper can skip at lower sense settings, wich is understandable given the above. But since it´s a gaming mouse you use high sense, or atleast I do. Still I think this is the kind of info review sites should give not just "It´s better". I mean you want a logic chain of events leading to a conclusion not just leave out the massive data info. Oh well looks like I must get one now.