Longer Range Wireless

[kevnich2]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: kevnich2
Do NOT run ethernet outside of a house, it's just not worth it. Fiber may be more expensive but when you look at the potential issues with running a very long copper line underground without the proper grounding, fiber suddenly isn't as expensive anymore.

I have to laugh every time I see someone saying not to run ethernet outside. There is nothing special about ethernet cable. It is no different than telephone, which is not required to be grounded at the home , or coax cable. The NEC considers them all low voltage wiring and the only real requirements are :

Must be buried 12 inches
Must not be within 4 inches of wiring providing power.
Must be grounded at one end, but not both.


They make direct burial ethernet cable for a reason. Ethernet cable is also run outside, through the air, up poles and across rooftops to connect wifi access points. The biggest danger running ethernet , or any wire, outside is when you are running it at points that are higher than the local buildings, making it a lightning target. Even then you can install a $20 arrestor and you are fine.


Some good books on the subject:
NEC code 2008
Industrial Ethernet Planning and Installation.

Well then since you seem to know it all, go ahead and do it and when you have equipment failures and the such, you can then post and ask why it happened. Me, I'll stick to running my fiber for projects outside.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: kevnich2

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: kevnich2
Do NOT run ethernet outside of a house, it's just not worth it. Fiber may be more expensive but when you look at the potential issues with running a very long copper line underground without the proper grounding, fiber suddenly isn't as expensive anymore.

I have to laugh every time I see someone saying not to run ethernet outside. There is nothing special about ethernet cable. It is no different than telephone, which is not required to be grounded at the home , or coax cable. The NEC considers them all low voltage wiring and the only real requirements are :

Must be buried 12 inches
Must not be within 4 inches of wiring providing power.
Must be grounded at one end, but not both.


They make direct burial ethernet cable for a reason. Ethernet cable is also run outside, through the air, up poles and across rooftops to connect wifi access points. The biggest danger running ethernet , or any wire, outside is when you are running it at points that are higher than the local buildings, making it a lightning target. Even then you can install a $20 arrestor and you are fine.


Some good books on the subject:
NEC code 2008
Industrial Ethernet Planning and Installation.

Well then since you seem to know it all, go ahead and do it and when you have equipment failures and the such, you can then post and ask why it happened. Me, I'll stick to running my fiber for projects outside.

It isn't me it is the industry. They all know there is no problem with it. Visit any of the hundreds of wisp companies and ask them how they get the data and even power to their towers. It isn't transmitted up there. It is run over outdoor rated ethernet cable.
Read about power over ethernet and how they even use the same ethernet cable to power remote switches and routers.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

It isn't me it is the industry. They all know there is no problem with it. Visit any of the hundreds of wisp companies and ask them how they get the data and even power to their towers. It isn't transmitted up there. It is run over outdoor rated ethernet cable.
Read about power over ethernet and how they even use the same ethernet cable to power remote switches and routers.

Yes. And that cable is properly grounded with lightning protection and properly installed. Same with phone lines and any other cable that leaves the premise or could cause a ground potential difference. If you're talking about wireless ISPs on towers all the grounding is done in the hut. You need to be looking at EIA/TIA, not NEC.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

It isn't me it is the industry. They all know there is no problem with it. Visit any of the hundreds of wisp companies and ask them how they get the data and even power to their towers. It isn't transmitted up there. It is run over outdoor rated ethernet cable.
Read about power over ethernet and how they even use the same ethernet cable to power remote switches and routers.

Yes. And that cable is properly grounded with lightning protection and properly installed. Same with phone lines and any other cable that leaves the premise or could cause a ground potential difference. If you're talking about wireless ISPs on towers all the grounding is done in the hut. You need to be looking at EIA/TIA, not NEC.

We know its grounded. My point is it is run outside all the time and it is not at all complicated to run. People often over complicate things needlessly. You use NEC because they decide what is code not the standards organizations EIA or any other organization . Ethernet is under article 800 and powered ethernet under article 830 if you want to read it.


Wisp have two grounds. One on the tower itself, which grounds the frame and the outside of the transmitter. The ground on the inside of the transmitter floats and uses spark gaps for lightning protection.

Phone lines btw are not grounded, they use a spark gap for protection.

 

[spidey07]

-edit-
not even worth it.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

It isn't me it is the industry. They all know there is no problem with it. Visit any of the hundreds of wisp companies and ask them how they get the data and even power to their towers. It isn't transmitted up there. It is run over outdoor rated ethernet cable.
Read about power over ethernet and how they even use the same ethernet cable to power remote switches and routers.

Yes. And that cable is properly grounded with lightning protection and properly installed. Same with phone lines and any other cable that leaves the premise or could cause a ground potential difference. If you're talking about wireless ISPs on towers all the grounding is done in the hut. You need to be looking at EIA/TIA, not NEC.

We know its grounded. My point is it is run outside all the time and it is not at all complicated to run. People often over complicate things needlessly. You use NEC because they decide what is code not the standards organizations EIA or any other organization . Ethernet is under article 800 and powered ethernet under article 830 if you want to read it.


Wisp have two grounds. One on the tower itself, which grounds the frame and the outside of the transmitter. The ground on the inside of the transmitter floats and uses spark gaps for lightning protection.

Phone lines btw are not grounded, they use a spark gap for protection.

I'm done talking to you. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Like someone who says look at the EIA for grounding requirements knows what they are talking about. LOL

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Like someone who says look at the EIA for grounding requirements knows what they are talking about. LOL

If you knew what you were talking about you would know the difference between NEC and EIA/TIA. One is for safety, the other is keeping equipment from being fried/noise.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Like someone who says look at the EIA for grounding requirements knows what they are talking about. LOL

If you knew what you were talking about you would know the difference between NEC and EIA/TIA. One is for safety, the other is keeping equipment from being fried/noise.

Which isn't what you were talking about when you said

And that cable is properly grounded with lightning protection and properly installed

The facts are that if the OP wants to do this cheaply all he needs is some ethernet cable and a couple ethernet protectors. Easily done under $300 and well within code.

 

[kevnich2]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Like someone who says look at the EIA for grounding requirements knows what they are talking about. LOL

If you knew what you were talking about you would know the difference between NEC and EIA/TIA. One is for safety, the other is keeping equipment from being fried/noise.

Which isn't what you were talking about when you said

And that cable is properly grounded with lightning protection and properly installed

The facts are that if the OP wants to do this cheaply all he needs is some ethernet cable and a couple ethernet protectors. Easily done under $300 and well within code.

No, what spidey is saying is that there are vast differences between safety and in keeping equipment properly functioning. Your talking purely on safety and he's referring to keeping equipment from malfunctioning. I have seen what happens to equipment when it's connected to outdoor cat5 that isn't properly installed. Fiber is MUCH easier to install outside than cat5. And again, if you seem to believe that, well then I'm entirely on spidey's side, you have no idea what you're talking about then.

And no, to PROPERLY run outdoor cat5, it takes a heck of a lot more than $300 to have it installed properly and in a fashion that won't totally destroy the equipment it's connected to due to being improperly installed.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: drebo
Seriously, the logical solution to this is to get cheap DSL connections at each house and VPN them all together.

Not really, what he wants to do can be done, just not very well for $250. The initial hardware outlay if done right will be negated by the fact that you dont have a monthly billx4 connections

 

[drebo]

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: drebo
Seriously, the logical solution to this is to get cheap DSL connections at each house and VPN them all together.

Not really, what he wants to do can be done, just not very well for $250. The initial hardware outlay if done right will be negated by the fact that you dont have a monthly billx4 connections

I already did the math on this. Doing it properly with a point-to-multipoint bridge versus doing it with a lan-to-lan VPN and $25/mo DSL, it would take approximately 8 years of DSL service at the three additional locations plus the cost of the VPN hardware to equal the cost of the point-to-multipoint bridge.

As I said, if they're going to be there long-term, the bridge might be a better solution. If the setup is a short-term one, then the DSL is far, far cheaper.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: kevnich2


No, what spidey is saying is that there are vast differences between safety and in keeping equipment properly functioning. Your talking purely on safety and he's referring to keeping equipment from malfunctioning. I have seen what happens to equipment when it's connected to outdoor cat5 that isn't properly installed. Fiber is MUCH easier to install outside than cat5. And again, if you seem to believe that, well then I'm entirely on spidey's side, you have no idea what you're talking about then.

And no, to PROPERLY run outdoor cat5, it takes a heck of a lot more than $300 to have it installed properly and in a fashion that won't totally destroy the equipment it's connected to due to being improperly installed.

I am an EE with over 15 years of experience. When I see people say running cat5 outdoors is a bad idea, I look at it from an EE perspective. I know what the circuitry is inside a nic and I know how the connections are made to the processors on that board.

Ethernet chipsets do not directly connect the wire on the ethernet cable to the circuitry. Look at any NIC or switch circuit board , right behind the jack and you will see a large rectangular block. That block is a transformer. Transformers isolate the circuit from any voltage differences that may originate on the other end. So the idea that running ethernet between two homes is going to set up some damage because one house has a different ground is wrong. There is no direct connection between ethernet cable and the interface it plugs in to other than the transformer on the card.

The installer just needs to make sure not to connect any ground shielding on a cable to both ends of a ground source. One end is enough.

Fiber is much more costly and is not needed every time you run a cable outdoors.

I doubt the OP is talking about paying someone to do the work. If he does it himself he can easily do it for under $300.

 

[g8wayrebel]

Check out the most recent tech. You can share it with the entire neighborhood through the electric wiring
GOOGLE is your friend. If no other resources, check Popular Science , PC World and PC MAG websites. They have all highlighted the tech in recent reviews.
Sorry no links , I read about it in those periodicals, I'm not looking at it now. You can easily do the homework yourself.
If this has already been pointed out to you forgive me for bypassing the flames.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

I am an EE with over 15 years of experience. When I see people say running cat5 outdoors is a bad idea, I look at it from an EE perspective. I know what the circuitry is inside a nic and I know how the connections are made to the processors on that board.

This is exactly why you don't don't know what you are talking about and should avoid giving advice on such matters. You refuse to follow accepted standards and codes because you "know better". I'm called in more times than I can count to fix your line of reason.

You just don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks

I am an EE with over 15 years of experience. When I see people say running cat5 outdoors is a bad idea, I look at it from an EE perspective. I know what the circuitry is inside a nic and I know how the connections are made to the processors on that board.

This is exactly why you don't don't know what you are talking about and should avoid giving advice on such matters. You refuse to follow accepted standards and codes because you "know better". I'm called in more times than I can count to fix your line of reason.

You just don't know what you are talking about.

Well show me those standards and codes you are talking about.
All you have done is say' you don't know what you are talking about'. I can point you to codes telling how to install ethernet outdoors , I guess those codes were written just for the hell of it, nobody would ever use them, all you have done is generalize. Standards accepted by who ?

Are you seriously saying that the engineers that design the circuits don't know how to connect them without damage ?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Modelworks


Well show me those standards and codes you are talking about.
All you have done is say' you don't know what you are talking about'. I can point you to codes telling how to install ethernet outdoors , I guess those codes were written just for the hell of it, nobody would ever use them, all you have done is generalize. Standards accepted by who ?

Are you seriously saying that the engineers that design the circuits don't know how to connect them without damage ?

I shouldn't have to if you had any idea of what you were talking about. Bellcore would be a good place for you to start.

It's flat out hilarious that you even bring up industrial ethernet.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks


Well show me those standards and codes you are talking about.
All you have done is say' you don't know what you are talking about'. I can point you to codes telling how to install ethernet outdoors , I guess those codes were written just for the hell of it, nobody would ever use them, all you have done is generalize. Standards accepted by who ?

Are you seriously saying that the engineers that design the circuits don't know how to connect them without damage ?

I shouldn't have to if you had any idea of what you were talking about. Bellcore would be a good place for you to start.

It's flat out hilarious that you even bring up industrial ethernet.

Again you generalize.
Put up or shut up.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Modelworks


Again you generalize.
Put up or shut up.

heh, keep googling. You googled to installation of industrial ethernet, that's funny in itself. It means you have never actually done any of this...you just googled it.

 

[JackMDS]

It is getting close to thread lock time.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Modelworks


Again you generalize.
Put up or shut up.

heh, keep googling. You googled to installation of industrial ethernet, that's funny in itself. It means you have never actually done any of this...you just googled it.

You still can't provide anything but banter ?

The book I referenced can be read here:
http://www.iaona-eu.com/home/downloads.php

 

[ScottMac]

Just as an aside ... "entrance protection" is mandated for any copper/conductor from the outside. You can't just use "any" entrance protection; for Fast Ethernet, it must be rated at least Cat5.

In addition, the use of Entrance protection will significantly decrease the acceptable overall length of the span.

As mentioned, there are safety rules, like the NEC, and there are operational rules, like the EIA/TIA. For example, the NEC specs are fairly specific about an acceptable facilities ground, and the EIA/TIA has some specific grounding "rules" (guidelines and specifications) for a grounding system in the 568 specs for structured cabling systems and components, to ensure proper operation.

Failure to follow either is ultimately a waste of money and time. In addition, knowingly and demonstrably disregarding either can lead to being denied on the insurance claim when someone/something frys at the end of an energized cable, and possible fines.

Also Modelworks: the isolation chip you mentioned does not exist on all NICs, and rarely exists on most motherboards. Even when it does exist, it is not there for safety protection, it is there to reduce "noise to ground" effects (primarily to reduce common-mode noise). The chip (when it's used) is usually something like the Pulse Engineering PE68515 or similar.

I use that chip, I know it well. It's not a safety link, it doesn't qualify as entrance protection at any level, it's just there to reduce noise.

Also when using shielded cable (called "screened" when applied to UTP), it must have the shield grounded properly, or it is beyond useless ... it adds noise well beyond acceptable levels in most environments. Improperly termination of the ground is even worse than no ground at all in most cases (additional differential noise, which most NICs/Chipsets are *NOT* equipped to handle).

OP: The antenna has to be as close as possible to the transmitter, at 2.4GHz, losses in the cable cannot be made up for with just an antenna (and the cable would eat nearly all of the budget) beyond a few feet using consumer-grade equipment.

To add other active components would require (at least in the USA) federal re-certification of the entire system (as a company, you *DO* want to stay legal, right?); the components are only certified for the originally tested OEM configuration or equipment that is substantially similar.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled pissing match .....

 

[Modelworks]

Also Modelworks: the isolation chip you mentioned does not exist on all NICs, and rarely exists on most motherboards. Even when it does exist, it is not there for safety protection, it is there to reduce "noise to ground" effects (primarily to reduce common-mode noise). The chip (when it's used) is usually something like the Pulse Engineering PE68515 or similar.

I use that chip, I know it well. It's not a safety link, it doesn't qualify as entrance protection at any level, it's just there to reduce noise.

I disagree that the only reason the transformers are there is for noise reasons. They are there for safety reasons and to prevent damage to the chipset from spikes in voltage. That is why they are designed to withstand up to 1500V and also required to withstand a 100A surge for a fraction of a second without damage. I don't know of any hardware maker that does not use a transformer in the connection. If the part is not visible on the board it is because it is inside the jack. It does not qualify as total protection but it is a big part of it. I have never seen a single interface designed without the use of one or a ethernet IC that doesn't require one in the specs.

 

[ScottMac]

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The PE68515, and other parts like it are classified as "telco magnetics" or "telco transformer."
It offers no protection from dangerous currents and is in no way considered part of a protection system (and certainly not entrance protection it doesn't even come close to qualifying to the EP specs).

It's used as a noise buster for common-mode. It is rated at 1500Vrms breakdown, because it can see that kind of spike on a line, but it's not a protective device, 1500Vrms is protection for this device, not the component its mounted in. Some of the better NICs will use a gas popper, but that ain't in any way related to this chip.

It's a 1:1 transformer (with input chokes). Any spike coming down the line is like any other signal. It breaks the path. It's an isolation transformer.

Here's the data sheet: http://ww2.pulseeng.com/products/datasheets/H303.pdf

If you don't trust me, give PE a call.

 

[Modelworks]

I am not saying it is lightning protection but it does more than just remove noise. If it were only there to remove noise then it would not be needed at all since there are better ways to remove noise. An isolation transformer by its very nature is a protective device. Earlier you said that some boards do not use them , I would love to see the schematics to those boards and what chipsets they use.