male and female salaries?

[Hayabusa Rider]

I am not one who believes a woman should not allowed to be a mother and be forced to pursue a career. There is nothing wrong with being a mom. It's a challenging, essential, and wonderful role and if that is a person's decision I respect it. If anything I believe we should make motherhood easier by supporting programs that make it more manageable, especially for single moms.

There's a lot to consider in your post but I'll comment on the above. Being a mother is a worthwhile pursuit, but we need to be aware of certain limitations and not promote a "you are a woman and you can have it all." That's creates an unrealistic expectation that does no one good. You may or may not recall that my wife is a PhD biologist and is a mother as well. While it's not impossible to do there were times when both could not be done well. When she was working in the lab it was often 60+ hours and the experiments did not care about social equivalence or justice. Consequently we waited until she was finished and was in her last month when defending her thesis. To think that it was reasonable to attempt doing all at once is frankly crazy. There are physical and temporal realities that must be considered and by doing so one may do a great many things.

Regarding single moms and assistance for working I strongly support that in my version of medicaid reform. It is important that people learn what work is and that it is not a punishment. It is what one ought to do to support oneself and those that depend on them. Having women work and obtaining a practical education as a mandate would prepare them for entry to the "real world." Of course that needs to be tied to rational effective reforms which encourage long term domestic employment. Like health care it can't be done well in pieces, it needs to be part of a comprehensive reform. Yeah fat chance, but that's what needs to happen.

 

[0roo0roo]

Willing is not the same as choosing. Again, that is an example of coercion.

Nehalem256,
The only answer I can give you regarding my beliefs is because, like everyone else, my knowledge and personal experiences have led me to the conclusion that gender is less a factor in restricting individual liberty than are social/cultural institutions. I've seen men and women excel in a variety of roles. For example, I went to training with this woman while I was pursuing a career as an Air Force officer. During our version of basic training, I saw her successfully marshal 350 cadets to complete training objectives in an extremely intense environment that was specifically designed to have the person leading it fail. She was exceptional far before she became an officer and successfully lead people in battle, which earned her that award. I mean, really, that's what beliefs boil down to: our knowledge and experiences. You may judge me and toss labels if it suits you, that is your right, but I am not ashamed of who I am or what I believe.

Psychologically speaking gender differences have been vastly exaggerated. Research today demonstrates that the brains of each gender are neurologically nearly identical. The differences can be explained as environmental effects that impact brain development. For example, women are taught to be more emotionally expressive, so certain areas of the brain develop differently. I'll ignore the issue of transgenderism for the moment, which throws a lot of unique challenges at the idea of traditional gender roles. Physically speaking each gender conveys unique strengths and limitations, but as I indicated above I have seen women excel in physically demanding roles.

The reason I support gender equality (and equality across the board) is because these social/cultural institutions harm not only women, but men as well. We could argue who is harmed more, but at the end of the day both sides are being hurt. Men are discouraged or prevented from pursuing certain areas of life or career fields because they are "women's roles." For example, stay-at-home fathers are frowned upon. I'm a male therapist, which usually raises a few eyebrows. Men receive all sorts of messages about needing to be "strong" and to restrict their emotional expressions, which over the long term causes substantial psychological harm. Similarly, women are prevented from tearing down certain barriers and face tremendous discrimination for being in a "man's field." I am not suggesting that I want everyone running around crying in the street, I am merely stating that denying aspects of our humanity does not do us any favors. It all too frequently ends in death via suicide.

At the end of the day these discourses ultimately hurt the vast majority of both men and women. The only individuals helped are the minority who are interested in maintaining traditional discourses for their own gain. And to me, sacrificing greater happiness for the majority in order to please the few is not beneficial towards society as a whole.

I will point out a final time that you have again attributed beliefs to me that I do not possess. I am not one who believes a woman should not allowed to be a mother and be forced to pursue a career. There is nothing wrong with being a mom. It's a challenging, essential, and wonderful role and if that is a person's decision I respect it. If anything I believe we should make motherhood easier by supporting programs that make it more manageable, especially for single moms.

Research today does not demonstrate that the brains of each gender are neurologically nearly identical. Again, these are bold claims, and when one actually looks at what they base this kind of stuff on, you see it just doesn't hold water. Again, how do you quantify motivation? The simple matter of sex drive and mating strategy is different, thanks to reality and millions of years of evolution, and these differences somehow do not create any neurological difference? Kind of weird to claim.

The blank slate has been tried in the past, its just bad logic, and science.

Just a simple demonstration of the difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCudcVno1gQ

you aren't going to get around that fundamental difference and the resulting strategies it implies. males risk not reproducing if they do not risk. females risk not reproducing if they take risks.

your experience training with a single female cadet means what? absolutely nothing because these things do not matter unless they are equally distributed. there will always be outliers, a bell curve or whatever. its like claiming that because nordic women are taller than asian men, that you can then dismiss the idea that men on average are taller than men, its just bad logic.

you simply will never have even gender distributions ever, it just won't happen without force and oppression. for every female model you hire you need to hire a male at the same price regardless of demand for example? you see, it just does not work. no amount of male booth babes is going to get hoards of women to follow e3....

 

[Newbian]

Living in Wisconsin and having the politicians recently remove the law protecting equal pay shows there is a huge issue and it will be there for a long time.

 

[nehalem256]

Willing is not the same as choosing. Again, that is an example of coercion.

Nehalem256,
The only answer I can give you regarding my beliefs is because, like everyone else, my knowledge and personal experiences have led me to the conclusion that gender is less a factor in restricting individual liberty than are social/cultural institutions. I've seen men and women excel in a variety of roles. For example, I went to training with this woman while I was pursuing a career as an Air Force officer. During our version of basic training, I saw her successfully marshal 350 cadets to complete training objectives in an extremely intense environment that was specifically designed to have the person leading it fail. She was exceptional far before she became an officer and successfully lead people in battle, which earned her that award. I mean, really, that's what beliefs boil down to: our knowledge and experiences. You may judge me and toss labels if it suits you, that is your right, but I am not ashamed of who I am or what I believe.

Psychologically speaking gender differences have been vastly exaggerated. Research today demonstrates that the brains of each gender are neurologically nearly identical. The differences can be explained as environmental effects that impact brain development. For example, women are taught to be more emotionally expressive, so certain areas of the brain develop differently. I'll ignore the issue of transgenderism for the moment, which throws a lot of unique challenges at the idea of traditional gender roles. Physically speaking each gender conveys unique strengths and limitations, but as I indicated above I have seen women excel in physically demanding roles.

The reason I support gender equality (and equality across the board) is because these social/cultural institutions harm not only women, but men as well. We could argue who is harmed more, but at the end of the day both sides are being hurt. Men are discouraged or prevented from pursuing certain areas of life or career fields because they are "women's roles." For example, stay-at-home fathers are frowned upon. I'm a male therapist, which usually raises a few eyebrows. Men receive all sorts of messages about needing to be "strong" and to restrict their emotional expressions, which over the long term causes substantial psychological harm. Similarly, women are prevented from tearing down certain barriers and face tremendous discrimination for being in a "man's field." I am not suggesting that I want everyone running around crying in the street, I am merely stating that denying aspects of our humanity does not do us any favors. It all too frequently ends in death via suicide.

At the end of the day these discourses ultimately hurt the vast majority of both men and women. The only individuals helped are the minority who are interested in maintaining traditional discourses for their own gain. And to me, sacrificing greater happiness for the majority in order to please the few is not beneficial towards society as a whole.

And that is where we fundamentally disagree. Men and women are inherently different.

I will point out a final time that you have again attributed beliefs to me that I do not possess. I am not one who believes a woman should not allowed to be a mother and be forced to pursue a career. There is nothing wrong with being a mom. It's a challenging, essential, and wonderful role and if that is a person's decision I respect it. If anything I believe we should make motherhood easier by supporting programs that make it more manageable, especially for single moms.

So basically you want to force men to support women' choices. So much for equality.

And this pretty much means you still want traditional gender roles where men support women. Only you have removed any reciprocal obligation of the woman.

 

[piasabird]

I thought a baby was a choice! It is a choice, so why do we pay a woman and offer her free training just because she gets preagnant? Women want to be free to make this choice and they they want the government to pay for their choice. Sounds like it is just extortion. I made a choice to get my kids ready for school and take them there on my way to college. The government did not help me. I did it on my own. If you dont want to take care of your children dont have them.

 

[nehalem256]

I thought a baby was a choice! It is a choice, so why do we pay a woman and offer her free training just because she gets preagnant? Women want to be free to make this choice and they they want the government to pay for their choice. Sounds like it is just extortion. I made a choice to get my kids ready for school and take them there on my way to college. The government did not help me. I did it on my own. If you dont want to take care of your children dont have them.

It sounds like extortion because it is extortion.

 

[Carmen813]

Well, I did my best. Unfortunately this conversation seems to be going in circles at this point. It seems each time I reply it is taken out of context (OrooOroo) or manipulated to imply beliefs I do not have (Nehalem256). These may be useful political strategies, but they don't make for interesting discussions.

Hayabusa, thanks for the thought out post. If you want to continue this conversation PM me.

Live long and prosper, I'm out!

 

[0roo0roo]

Sorry no, if you have to rely on the bold claims that have nothing real to back them up once you dig behind the numbers, you have no where to go, thats just the fact of the situation.

 

[nehalem256]

Well, I did my best. Unfortunately this conversation seems to be going in circles at this point. It seems each time I reply it is taken out of context (OrooOroo) or manipulated to imply beliefs I do not have (Nehalem256). These may be useful political strategies, but they don't make for interesting discussions.

Hayabusa, thanks for the thought out post. If you want to continue this conversation PM me.

Live long and prosper, I'm out!

I will point out a final time that you have again attributed beliefs to me that I do not possess. I am not one who believes a woman should not allowed to be a mother and be forced to pursue a career. There is nothing wrong with being a mom. It's a challenging, essential, and wonderful role and if that is a person's decision I respect it. If anything I believe we should make motherhood easier by supporting programs that make it more manageable, especially for single moms.

I am not manipulating what you say. You are straight up saying you want other people to support women's choices to be single mom's. I think any intellectually honest person knows this will predominantly be men. So you are clearly expecting men to take on the traditional provider role for women. You just do not think women should have any reciprocal obligation to men, hence the "especially for single moms".

 

[nehalem256]

Here seems to be a relevant article from the NYTs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/business/economy/motherhood-still-a-cause-of-pay-inequality.html

Most economists believe the gap between women’s and men’s wages does not stem primarily from employers paying women less than men for the same job. It occurs mostly because men and women take different jobs and follow different career paths. Part of this difference may be a result of discrimination in hiring and promoting. Much, though, is a result of the constraints of motherhood.

There are policies that could help diminish women’s pay deficit by increasing flexibility in the workplace and easing women’s family burden. Reducing the nation’s vast income inequality would also go a long way. Many European countries have smaller gender pay gaps because the difference between the earnings of low-wage and high-wage workers, men or women, is much smaller than in the United States. But mandating equal pay for equal work is unlikely to make much of a difference.

 

[fskimospy]

Here seems to be a relevant article from the NYTs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/business/economy/motherhood-still-a-cause-of-pay-inequality.html

Hey guys, women shoulder a disproportionate share of the burden of perpetuating the human race. The clear answer is not only that they should be paid less in the workplace, but any attempt to rectify this disproportionate burden is actually extortion of men.

You need a date so... so bad.

 

[nehalem256]

Hey guys, women shoulder a disproportionate share of the burden of perpetuating the human race. The clear answer is not only that they should be paid less in the workplace, but any attempt to rectify this disproportionate burden is actually extortion of men.

You need a date so... so bad.

If they dont want that burden they can always CHOOSE to get an abortion.

And funny how they do not really seem to like work that much:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larissa...llennial-women-are-burning-out-at-work-by-30/

Or that they seem to prefer the "burden" of perpetuating the human race to working

If women work fewer hours than men do, it appears to be because they want it that way. About two-thirds of the part-time workforce in the United States is female. According to a 2007 Pew Research survey, only 21 percent of working mothers with minor children want to be in the office full-time. Sixty percent say that they would prefer to work part-time, and 19 percent would like to give up their jobs altogether. For working fathers, the numbers are reversed: 72 percent want to work full-time and 12 percent part-time.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...1838036.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTSecondBucket

 

[fskimospy]

lol, nice quotes around 'burden'. Studies show that when the work of raising the children, housework, etc is included women actually work more hours per week than men do on average. But yes again, we should totally punish women for doing their work on perpetuating the species. So they 'don't like work that much'? They work more than you do on average... not that you wouldn't be content to live off the fruits of their labor in the unlikely event that you will find one willing to put up with your atrocious views on women.

 

[nehalem256]

lol, nice quotes around 'burden'. Studies show that when the work of raising the children, housework, etc is included women actually work more hours per week than men do on average. But yes again, we should totally punish women for doing their work on perpetuating the species. So they 'don't like work that much'? They work more than you do on average... not that you wouldn't be content to live off the fruits of their labor in the unlikely event that you will find one willing to put up with your atrocious views on women.

So because women CHOOSE to go to work, men should be required to change to support that choice :hmm:

And we are not punishing them. They made a CHOICE. CHOICES have consequences. Women just seem to want to force those consequences onto others.

 

[fskimospy]

So because women CHOOSE to go to work, men should be required to change to support that choice :hmm:

And we are not punishing them. They made a CHOICE. CHOICES have consequences. Women just seem to want to force those consequences onto others.

lol. Men do the exact same thing. They have a CHOICE to impregnate someone, they just want to force the consequences onto others by being able to abandon their offspring. Luckily they can't. Equality for all.

More specifically, certain types of work receive pay in our society and some do not. This is not actually related to their necessity. You wish to perpetuate a system where some are compensated more than others regardless of this fact. In America, those of us who believe in equality for all want all types of necessary work to be compensated.

So, are you willing to say whether or not you've ever had a girlfriend yet?

 

[nehalem256]

lol. Men do the exact same thing. They have a CHOICE to impregnate someone, they just want to force the consequences onto others by being able to abandon their offspring. Luckily they can't. Equality for all.

Women are allowed to abandon their offsping(Safe-Haven laws) or kill them (abortion).

Consent to sex is not consent to parenthood according to liberals.

Having a one-night stand is really no different than using a turkey baster.

l
More specifically, certain types of work receive pay in our society and some do not. This is not actually related to their necessity. You wish to perpetuate a system where some are compensated more than others regardless of this fact. In America, those of us who believe in equality for all want all types of necessary work to be compensated.

You get paid for doing work for others who agree to pay. I do not get paid if I cook myself dinner. Someone does not get paid for walking their dog.

Why would you expect to get paid for taking care of your own child? And if you think a child is such a burden why did you have it in the first place?

 

[fskimospy]

Women are allowed to abandon their offsping(Safe-Haven laws) or kill them (abortion).

Consent to sex is not consent to parenthood according to liberals.

Having a one-night stand is really no different than using a turkey baster.

LOL. Want to get into how false paternity is worse than rape again?

Consent to sex is not consent to give over control of your body to another person. How many times do you need to be told this? Men and women have identical rights to control of medical issues involving their own bodies. Men and women also have identical rights and responsibilities to children once born.

Equality for all! You just want special privileges that we won't allow you to have. Time to get used to equality.

You get paid for doing work for others who agree to pay. I do not get paid if I cook myself dinner. Someone does not get paid for walking their dog.

Why would you expect to get paid for taking care of your own child? And if you think a child is such a burden why did you have it in the first place?

There are all sorts of jobs that the government has in which each person taxed has not agreed to pay for, and yet pay they do. What you wrote was obviously, hilariously false. The current situation is that women do more work in raising children than men do. You wish for men to continue to be the beneficiaries of unpaid labor. Those of us who believe in true equality recognize that disparity. Those of us who are raging misogynists who are attempting to take out their anger on women who won't date them do not. I'm not going to participate in this discussion with you anymore, I don't even know how I got roped into trying to teach you basic facts yet again anyway. Say what you want, I won't respond.

That is unless you're interested in discussing your romantic situation, I'm very interested to hear about that.

 

[nehalem256]

LOL. Want to get into how false paternity is worse than rape again?

Consent to sex is not consent to give over control of your body to another person. How many times do you need to be told this? Men and women have identical rights to control of medical issues involving their own bodies. Men and women also have identical rights and responsibilities to children once born.

Equality for all! You just want special privileges that we won't allow you to have. Time to get used to equality.

The bolded is a lie. Which is why I mentioned safe-haven laws, which allow a woman to abandon a child AFTER ITS BORN, without the knowledge or consent of the father.

"Consent to sex is not consent to give over control of your body to another person" -- Unless you want a man to be force to labor WITH HIS BODY to pay for your reproductive choice. How do you not realize that working involves your body?

There are all sorts of jobs that the government has in which each person taxed has not agreed to pay for, and yet pay they do. What you wrote was obviously, hilariously false. The current situation is that women do more work in raising children than men do. You wish for men to continue to be the beneficiaries of unpaid labor. Those of us who believe in true equality recognize that disparity. Those of us who are raging misogynists who are attempting to take out their anger on women who won't date them do not. I'm not going to participate in this discussion with you anymore, I don't even know how I got roped into trying to teach you basic facts yet again anyway. Say what you want, I won't respond.

That is unless you're interested in discussing your romantic situation, I'm very interested to hear about that.

Work they choose to do. Having a child is a choice. And I wonder how much of the this disparity comes from single mother who "dont need a man".

EDIT: And you dont believe in equality. You believe in forcing men and women to be exactly the same. Whether they want it or not. And polls I showed previously showed they dont.

 

[nehalem256]

LOL. Want to get into how false paternity is worse than rape again?

That is a lie. I said false paternity should be considered the SAME level of badness as rape.