Mandatory military serving?

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chemos

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
482
0
0
Under Taliban rule in Afghanistan they didn't need doctors, lawyers, policemen, firemen, mechanics, computer techs or many other people doing civililan jobs. Their lives were very simple. Even you would be able to understand your role in their society.

ahh, that's it! we should become a militaristic state like Afghanistan! or were you trying to make some sort of deluded reference to the Taliban taking over the US? it sounds a lot more like you're saying we should ALL give up our careers to enlist. sounds a lot like Afghanistan to me.. or more like N. Korea.

Without people willing to serve their country, willing to die for it if necessary, none of us will have a future.

well good thing we have people enlisted/enlisting to do the job! without the freedom we fought so hard to create for ourselves here, none of us will have a future worth living.

if they pull my name out of a hat come draft time because we're in a state of emergency, i'll be walking into the local recruiters office and giving them my John Doe. but i'm tired of hearing your retarded militaristic crap on this topic just because you've already signed away your own life. take your mandatory military crap somewhere it belongs, like a communist state.
 

katka

Senior member
Jun 19, 2001
708
0
0
I don't think that it will happen because then the secret about military service will be out.

Very low pay to work whenever someone tells you to (about 60-70 hours a week) . Yes, it can be as much as 24 hours in one day. You work "DUTY" in addition to your regular job.

$10, 000 for College is AFTER you pay $1200 out of your $500 a month pay check.

Free clothes are a lie too. Your uniforms are paid for out of the $500 a month pay check. It is taken out while you are still in boot camp. So after two months of training you have been exercised to death, and at someones beck and call anytime of the day and night for about $600 bucks in your pocket. Personal products and eating out because the "free" food that you get in the military is not tasty in most instances.

*Disclaimer: Pay may be overstated in the above scenario, the college deposit may have gone up. I could go on and on but I won't as I am sure that you get the gist of it. Obviously, this does not apply to Officers, who will still be underpaid when compared to their civilian counterparts.

How do I know, I went to the military after being told a bunch of lies. Am I bitter, no because I did meet some good people, and was able to take advantage of my situation in the process. But I would like for some of the reality to be known for people who don't have a clue.


I forgot but I HAD to include that while being worked to death you are paying as much in taxes from you low pay as the next man.
 

KenGr

Senior member
Aug 22, 2002
725
0
0
Originally posted by: tec699

What do you mean OMFG... Who do you think did the majority of the dirty work in Vietnam? Was it some rich white kid? Nope.. It was a poor lower class (mostly black) young male born in the ghetto. Look it up.. While young minorities and poor whites were getting killed in Vietnam, you had young rich draft dodgers such as Bill Clinton protesting the war. It's just the way it is. In mot wars, it's the poor that take most of the brunt.


You can look this up but all you will find is someone's opinion. There is no data available on economic class in the military during Vietnam or any other time. The often quoted data about blacks being sent disproportionately to Vietnam sound like it should be true, but, using data from the Department of Defense and the VFW, is not. It turns out that during Vietnam blacks made up about 12% of the draft eligible population but only about 11% of the draftees (due to higher rejection rate due to medical and criminal record problems). Blacks accounted for about 13% of the Vietnam casualties. It has been suggested that this slight excess resulted from a tendency for blacks to volunteer for elite troops and front line positions. The military provided opportunities for advancement and excellence for minorities not always available in civilian life.



 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: Nocturnal
Was there recently a senator who is trying to get a bill into congress saying that we should have MANDATORY MILITARY SERVING?

What's your thoughts on this if this is really true?

If we are going to have a two or three front war, which is the direction Bush seems to be going, a volunteer army is not going to be large enough.
I wonder what the tone of the forum will be once the members start having love ones come home in body bags.

 

Ylen13

Banned
Sep 18, 2001
2,457
0
0
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: Nocturnal
Was there recently a senator who is trying to get a bill into congress saying that we should have MANDATORY MILITARY SERVING?

What's your thoughts on this if this is really true?

If we are going to have a two or three front war, which is the direction Bush seems to be going, a volunteer army is not going to be large enough.
I wonder what the tone of the forum will be once the members start having love ones come home in body bags.

something tells me we are far from getting this pass or even getting draft authorized by congress.If that happens alot of protests will start going on streets and some young people will just tell the army were they can stick the little paper telling u to report to duty. If enough people refuse to go they will have no other option as to abandon the idea,don't think they will put in prison 1000 or even more if it get really ugly.
 

do i believe in the draft? Not really. But if I am drafted, or if the country is in that bad of shape, I'd go in a heartbeat. Military life is not for me, but my country is worth dying for.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,858
507
126
Who do you think did the majority of the dirty work in Vietnam? Was it some rich white kid? Nope.. It was a poor lower class (mostly black) young male born in the ghetto. Look it up.. While young minorities and poor whites were getting killed in Vietnam, you had young rich draft dodgers such as Bill Clinton protesting the war. It's just the way it is. In mot wars, it's the poor that take most of the brunt.
That was due to the 'college' exemption, which I agree was very unfair and disfavored poorer working folks. There is no college exemption, anymore. You go when your number is picked, period. I believe there are now certain family and financial hardship exemptions that FAVOR poorer working folks, but I may be wrong.

And you're right that typically it wasn't some rich white kid doing the dirty work in Vietnam, a lot of them were poor and middle class white kids. Also, you can find many examples of kids from prominent or well-heeled white families who served front-line positions in Vietnam, but only if you're willing look for them.
The often quoted data about blacks being sent disproportionately to Vietnam sound like it should be true, but, using data from the Department of Defense and the VFW, is not. It turns out that during Vietnam blacks made up about 12% of the draft eligible population but only about 11% of the draftees (due to higher rejection rate due to medical and criminal record problems). Blacks accounted for about 13% of the Vietnam casualties. It has been suggested that this slight excess resulted from a tendency for blacks to volunteer for elite troops and front line positions. The military provided opportunities for advancement and excellence for minorities not always available in civilian life.
THANK YOU! Slight under-representation in draftees, slight over-representation in casualites. Hardly a shocking disparity.
will this law pass constitutional test? Wont it violate freedom of choices??
No constitutional problem whatsoever.

Like it or not, admit it or not, scream or kick or yell, hold your breath till you turn blue, you are a member of the unorganized militia of the United States (provided that you're a citizen).

Part of the social contract leftists love to go on so inanely about, is that citizenship in a republican democracy carries with it certain obligations and duties. In exchange for all of the opportunity, freedom, rights, and privileges which living in the US affords you, there is an age-old expectation that, when necessary, you will help preserve and defend what you have been the beneficiary of and others died to preserve for you.

So this begs the question, if its a duty of citizenship, why didn't the we require compuslory military service in the first place? The answer is, we did. Many states required by law periodic mustering of their militias, both active and reserve. The 'reserve' militia was all able bodied males, not just those who volunteered for reserve "duty".

However, compulsory military service presented problems early on. Alexander Hamilton gives instructive commentary on this very issue in Federalist #29. [emphasis mine]:
"The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured.
Hamilton is clearly saying that the legislature should not implement mandatory military service in times other than war because it would not be a wise thing to do, not because it would be unconstitutional. In fact, if you read Federalist #29 in its entirety, Hamilton ridicules the idea that the constitution prohibits conscription.

Also, as an aside, which I invoke here purely for my own entertainment, Hamilton goes on to write:
"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year."
After talking about the inherent problems with compulsory military service for everyone, and suggesting a "select corps" of trained volunteers as a far better alternative, Hamilton discusses what, then, shall come of the rest of the country, what should their obligations or duties be?

Little more can reasonably be aimed at than to have them properly armed and equipped. That little paragraph effectively obliterates and makes impossible the 'collective rights' or 'states rights' interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. Why?

Because among the reasons Hamilton cites as making complusory service unwise and impractical, is that the public treasuries couldn't afford it - it would break them. So where is the treasury going to get all of this money to "arm and equip" everyone? They wouldn't, the populace at large would arm and equip themselves at their own expense, that was the expectation.

Even federalists did not remotely imagine there could exist a climate which would be hostile to private gun ownership. It would be like imagining a time in the future where people through their representatives would take away their own freedom of speech or freedom of religion, you couldn't conceive of it. And even if you could conceive of it, you wouldn't think it plausible.

And neither could many of the founders conceive of gun control as being plausible. So much so, that the federalists initially rejected the necessity of a Bill of Rights which expressly asserted the RKBA partially on the grounds that it wasn't needed - why would any sane person support gun control?

Indeed, Alex! Why??
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Check G.W. Bush's military record and actually the military record of the elected officials. I suspect you will find that most of them did not serve in the military or like J. Danforth Quayle, Bush Sr's vp, found a way to avoid combat.
 

ScottyB

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2002
6,677
1
0
Originally posted by: FallenHero
do i believe in the draft? Not really. But if I am drafted, or if the country is in that bad of shape, I'd go in a heartbeat. Military life is not for me, but my country is worth dying for.

Really? The only thing I feel worth dying for is family.
 

Ylen13

Banned
Sep 18, 2001
2,457
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
That was due to the 'college' exemption, which I agree was very unfair and disfavored poorer working folks. There is no college exemption, anymore. You go when your number is picked, period. I believe there are now certain family and financial hardship exemptions that FAVOR poorer working folks, but I may be wrong.
!

technically their is.If you get your number get picked and u are order to go to draft u are legally delay the draft till u finish your current semster.So if u get called right at the begining of the semster u can delay it till u are done.Plus im sure with all of that time for delay u will be thinking of how to get around the system.Wonder how many will just go to eather france or canda.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,858
507
126
Check G.W. Bush's military record and actually the military record of the elected officials. I suspect you will find that most of them did not serve in the military or like J. Danforth Quayle, Bush Sr's vp, found a way to avoid combat.
Bush's entire unit of the National Guard was never activated for Vietnam, it was redesignated as a training unit. While I can believe that old Bush Sr. had enough pull to get his son transferred to avoid combat, and I can believe he had enough pull to 'smooth over' any minor troubles Bush Jr. might have gotten himself into, I find it highly unlikely that he had enough pull to get an entire National Guard unit redesignated. That's just not the way it works.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Ylen13
Originally posted by: tcsenter
That was due to the 'college' exemption, which I agree was very unfair and disfavored poorer working folks. There is no college exemption, anymore. You go when your number is picked, period. I believe there are now certain family and financial hardship exemptions that FAVOR poorer working folks, but I may be wrong.
!

technically their is.If you get your number get picked and u are order to go to draft u are legally delay the draft till u finish your current semster.So if u get called right at the begining of the semster u can delay it till u are done.Plus im sure with all of that time for delay u will be thinking of how to get around the system.Wonder how many will just go to eather france or canda.

Both you guys are nuts. There is no draft. What are you talking about then? If thier is?
 

psianime

Golden Member
Mar 16, 2002
1,497
1
0
Yes, we all need gun and hand-to-hand mortal combat training paid by the government. Thank you, sir.

-psianime
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: Ylen13
Originally posted by: tcsenter
That was due to the 'college' exemption, which I agree was very unfair and disfavored poorer working folks. There is no college exemption, anymore. You go when your number is picked, period. I believe there are now certain family and financial hardship exemptions that FAVOR poorer working folks, but I may be wrong.
!

technically their is.If you get your number get picked and u are order to go to draft u are legally delay the draft till u finish your current semster.So if u get called right at the begining of the semster u can delay it till u are done.Plus im sure with all of that time for delay u will be thinking of how to get around the system.Wonder how many will just go to eather france or canda.

Both you guys are nuts. There is no draft. What are you talking about then? If thier is?

Selective Service. Ever heard of it?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,858
507
126
Both you guys are nuts. There is no draft. What are you talking about then? If thier is?
There is no active draft, no. There is a Selective Service System, which is in fact a registration for draft eligibility. There are also rules and regulations for when the draft is activated.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Both you guys are nuts. There is no draft. What are you talking about then? If thier is?
There is no active draft, no. There is a Selective Service System, which is in fact a registration for draft eligibility. There are also rules and regulations for when the draft is activated.

Thank you for making the clarification It would take something pretty serious, no really serious in order to activate the draft. It's a mute point really since we are overmanned. But when it's gets that serious the rules will change.

 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,506
2
81
First there is no draft and there is no reason to expect one.

This isn't a game.. I do believe the draft should be reinstated as it would wake most Americans up to the realization that we really do have it to good. And personally, serving time in the military might be good for most people here.
Why would you start a draft now? Is the economy not bad enough? You're saying you want to make the government take people out of their productive lives and start paying them to be in the military when there is no need for additional troops? Seems like a short sighted plan to me. Further what do you mean we have it too good? People are too happy? Not enough people are wanting war? I'd like to see everyone have it alot better, not worse as some way to make them appreciate it.

This thread seems to have moved from the topic of mandatory service to the draft specifically but to try to head back on subject:
This is the first I've read of this suggestion but it would fail as it simply wouldn't be popular. I don't think it would be positive economically and I see it being a little hypocritical that the country of freedom would deny people of their freedom when the country wasn't in dire need of it.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
5,079
0
0
It'll never happen. This country has a tendency to bend over backwards whenever they feel they might step on someone's toes politically. Besides, what happens if you can't serve for financial reasons? I know if I got carted away, my family would have virtually no money for my entire term of service. Should they starve while I'm risking my life for some cause some politician cooked up in his kitchen while nailing his wife on the counter? Bah!

Besides, even if it did go through, people would be protesting and washington would get flooded by the families of those who don't like the policy. It's a dumb idea
 

Ylen13

Banned
Sep 18, 2001
2,457
0
0
even if it did pass im sure those people with enough potilical connections would be abel to eather find a loophole and get their son/daugher excused or would use the political connection to get the military doctors declared them no fit for duty.Lucky for me im one of those people but i really hope and pretty sure it will not pass.The idea is stupid especially with our economy is down.And as for those people that would cause deep fiancial harship if they they drafted im pretty sure they would be excsed from military duty.

Don't a senator also need to sponson the same bill in senate before it even have any chances at all to pass???
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Ylen13
even if it did pass im sure those people with enough potilical connections would be abel to eather find a loophole and get their son/daugher excused or would use the political connection to get the military doctors declared them no fit for duty.Lucky for me im one of those people but i really hope and pretty sure it will not pass.The idea is stupid especially with our economy is down.And as for those people that would cause deep fiancial harship if they they drafted im pretty sure they would be excsed from military duty.

Don't a senator also need to sponson the same bill in senate before it even have any chances at all to pass???

If you have these great political connections then why do you always mention running to Canada in almost every post you make about mandatory military service or the draft?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Both you guys are nuts. There is no draft. What are you talking about then? If thier is?
There is no active draft, no. There is a Selective Service System, which is in fact a registration for draft eligibility. There are also rules and regulations for when the draft is activated.

Thank you for making the clarification It would take something pretty serious, no really serious in order to activate the draft. It's a mute point really since we are overmanned. But when it's gets that serious the rules will change.

Of course. Hehe. There is really no chance of the draft coming back, but Selective Service is still here to remind us everyday that it COULD if things got really bad.
 

Ylen13

Banned
Sep 18, 2001
2,457
0
0
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: Ylen13
even if it did pass im sure those people with enough potilical connections would be abel to eather find a loophole and get their son/daugher excused or would use the political connection to get the military doctors declared them no fit for duty.Lucky for me im one of those people but i really hope and pretty sure it will not pass.The idea is stupid especially with our economy is down.And as for those people that would cause deep fiancial harship if they they drafted im pretty sure they would be excsed from military duty.

Don't a senator also need to sponson the same bill in senate before it even have any chances at all to pass???

If you have these great political connections then why do you always mention running to Canada in almost every post you make about mandatory military service or the draft?

because it easier to to canada then to find away even with great political connections to get out of draft.Probeably the only people will get out of draft will be congrassman/senators sons and president if he has any. The best i would most likey be abel to do is get assigned to national guard which mostlikely will go t active duty outside the country anyway.That is the reason i would probeably go to canada.It would be easier to comeback and not get charged with treason then call every favor that i got so that i don't get drafted.

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Ylen13
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: Ylen13
even if it did pass im sure those people with enough potilical connections would be abel to eather find a loophole and get their son/daugher excused or would use the political connection to get the military doctors declared them no fit for duty.Lucky for me im one of those people but i really hope and pretty sure it will not pass.The idea is stupid especially with our economy is down.And as for those people that would cause deep fiancial harship if they they drafted im pretty sure they would be excsed from military duty.

Don't a senator also need to sponson the same bill in senate before it even have any chances at all to pass???

If you have these great political connections then why do you always mention running to Canada in almost every post you make about mandatory military service or the draft?

because it easier to to canada then to find away even with great political connections to get out of draft.Probeably the only people will get out of draft will be congrassman/senators sons and president if he has any. The best i would most likey be abel to do is get assigned to national guard which mostlikely will go t active duty outside the country anyway.That is the reason i would probeably go to canada.It would be easier to comeback and not get charged with treason then call every favor that i got so that i don't get drafted.

Why do you not want to be drafted?
 

Ylen13

Banned
Sep 18, 2001
2,457
0
0
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Both you guys are nuts. There is no draft. What are you talking about then? If thier is?
There is no active draft, no. There is a Selective Service System, which is in fact a registration for draft eligibility. There are also rules and regulations for when the draft is activated.

Thank you for making the clarification It would take something pretty serious, no really serious in order to activate the draft. It's a mute point really since we are overmanned. But when it's gets that serious the rules will change.

Of course. Hehe. There is really no chance of the draft coming back, but Selective Service is still here to remind us everyday that it COULD if things got really bad.

I personally have a feeling selective service will not be used for at least another 10-20 years. Unless offcoruse we get invade by aliens well then that will be a hole different store
 
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