Matters of simple physics

[Syzzi]

Hope this is the right place to post this

I'm planning a new PC and came to what I thought would be the easy choices of a HS/fan and PSU. But I have a couple of (I hope) basic questions:

For a heatsink I decided on the CNPS9500. I've never had a heatpipe based thing before and I get the whole heat rising up the pipes to the fan area principle. I don't know how these things are tested by reviewers, but surely this transfer effect must be affected when you turn the thing on its side, as it would be in a normal tower? Heat doesn't naturally go sideways does it?

Secondly, I've always bought pretty noisy PSUs before (cause I didn't know better), so this time I wanted to get it right. I've been advised to get one with a 120mm fan on the bottom of the unit so it draws air out of the case, but there seems to be very good ones with the fan on the back, top and bottom. What's the best option?

 

[peleejosh]

PSU- get a seasonic s12, they are very quiet and efficient, Great PSU.

Heatsink - There is a wicking material in the heat pipe that transfers the heat, so it work no matter how its oriented.

 

[Syzzi]

Excellent, thanks.

My next question was going to be what are the recommendations, but you've picked one from the shortlist of three I had, and since I can see from your sig that it'll work with my graphics card, I'll save some cash and go witht he 500w instead of the 600w.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Syzzi
For a heatsink I decided on the CNPS9500. I've never had a heatpipe based thing before and I get the whole heat rising up the pipes to the fan area principle. I don't know how these things are tested by reviewers, but surely this transfer effect must be affected when you turn the thing on its side, as it would be in a normal tower? Heat doesn't naturally go sideways does it?

A heat pipe is a closed system that is pumped to a near vacuum with a liquid having a low temperature of vaporization, and it does work counter to gravity and the basic principle that heat rises.

Here's an explanation of how heat pipes work:

Introduction

A heat pipe is a simple device that can quickly transfer heat from one point to another. They are often referred to as the "superconductors" of heat as they possess an extra ordinary heat transfer capacity & rate with almost no heat loss.

The idea of heat pipes was first suggested by R.S.Gaugler in 1942. However, it was not until 1962, when G.M.Grover invented it, that its remarkable properties were appreciated & serious development began.

It consists of a sealed aluminum or copper container whose inner surfaces have a capillary wicking material. A heat pipe is similar to a thermosyphon. It differs from a thermosyphon by virtue of its ability to transport heat against gravity by an evaporation-condensation cycle with the help of porous capillaries that form the wick. The wick provides the capillary driving force to return the condensate to the evaporator. The quality and type of wick usually determines the performance of the heat pipe, for this is the heart of the product. Different types of wicks are used depending on the application for which the heat pipe is being used.

(continues)

More info with more pics and fewer words.

Heat pipes are way cool. :thumbsup:

 

[Syzzi]

Very cool. I'm convinced

 

[Harvey]

What's really cool is, the thermal energy of the heat source, itself, powers the heat transfer action so they don't require extra power to do a better job, and there are no moving parts so they should last forever, or the life of your CPU, whichever comes first.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Syzzi
Hope this is the right place to post this

I'm planning a new PC and came to what I thought would be the easy choices of a HS/fan and PSU. But I have a couple of (I hope) basic questions:

For a heatsink I decided on the CNPS9500. I've never had a heatpipe based thing before and I get the whole heat rising up the pipes to the fan area principle. I don't know how these things are tested by reviewers, but surely this transfer effect must be affected when you turn the thing on its side, as it would be in a normal tower? Heat doesn't naturally go sideways does it?

Secondly, I've always bought pretty noisy PSUs before (cause I didn't know better), so this time I wanted to get it right. I've been advised to get one with a 120mm fan on the bottom of the unit so it draws air out of the case, but there seems to be very good ones with the fan on the back, top and bottom. What's the best option?

You should pm GalvanizedYankee to help you out with a PSU. He's helped many and ive reciently asked him to assist me in selecting a budget PSU. If your looking for budget, id get a hold of Galvenized and ask him for recomendations. If you want ultimate quietness without worrying about price tag, you should looking into either seasonic, or a passive.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

The two best deals on a fairly quiet PSU atm imho, are at http://www.ewiz.com.

The Fortron FSP-400 GLN for <$50 or the Enhance ENP-5150G for <$65 if you want more
12V omph, it's combined is 28A. Both are better than the Enermax Noise Taker they are
now pushing with red high-lited ink.

If you want better than either for quiet, the Seasonic $12 will be$t either of'em.
EDIT: Expensive but VG indeed. The newer Seasonics have Nipponese caps. Enhance
uses a decent bargain cap called TEAPO. FSP with the AX or ATX at the front of the part#
use craps...Wanna play a game with your rigs hardware, scarecrow. hehehehe


...Galvanized

 

[elpres05]

If you are to understand heat sinks in detail and how each of them work in relation to phyiscs, HERE

Unfortunately, GalvanizedYankee posted above, so I suspect some bashing on my post

 

[firewolfsm]

I'm scared to argue with Galvanized but I really think the XClio 450bl is worth it. It has a black rubber coating covering the whole thing (which looks cool too) and I've never heard the 120mm fan since I got it. It got very good reviews and can output ~455 watts. Plus, it has 35A on dual 12V rails. It's only $40 on newegg. I have it and it powered a dual HDD, dual DVD, 7800GT @500/1200, an Opty 144 @ 2.9, 1.575V and three case fans very stabe. I've seen it doing SLI too.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817189003

 

[elpres05]

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
The two best deals on a fairly quiet PSU atm imho, are at http://www.ewiz.com.

The Fortron FSP-400 GLN for <$50 or the Enhance ENP-5150G for <$65 if you want more
12V omph, it's combined is 28A. Both are better than the Enermax Noise Taker they are
now pushing with red high-lited ink.

If you want better than either for quiet, the Seasonic $12 will be$t either of'em.


...Galvanized

Or perhaps a Neo HE, Noiseless (Big internal heat sinks), Tripple 12V circuitry(18A x 3), rated power = true power + continuous output at 50C, only 100W for 5V but SLI certified anyway. Overall efficiency up to 86%, modular cables, ATX 2.2 complaint (not many PSU's are) and rock solid reliability.

and I know this because HERE

Don't take it serious galv, i'm only kidding.. cheers

 

[TrevorRC]

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
The two best deals on a fairly quiet PSU atm imho, are at http://www.ewiz.com.

The Fortron FSP-400 GLN for <$50 or the Enhance ENP-5150G for <$65 if you want more
12V omph, it's combined is 28A. Both are better than the Enermax Noise Taker they are
now pushing with red high-lited ink.

If you want better than either for quiet, the Seasonic $12 will be$t either of'em.


...Galvanized

:thumbsup:

Especially like the Seasonic comments Not worth the cash.... put in your own fans for the extra cash. Deck it out And so on.
--Trevor

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Originally posted by: elpres05
If you are to understand heat sinks in detail and how each of them work in relation to phyiscs, HERE

Unfortunately, GalvanizedYankee posted above, so I suspect some bashing on my post

You come into this forum only to promote your site...Period.
That speaks VOLUMES on your purpose here...End of story.

Anwrec PSUs are junk! The vast majority of power caused problems here, in GH or TS,
are posted by members running Anwrec units. Don't give me, "It's because they sell
more" bunk either. They are junk in high case...OK


...Galvanized

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Originally posted by: firewolfsm
I'm scared to argue with Galvanized but I really think the XClio 450bl is worth it. It has a black rubber coating covering the whole thing (which looks cool too) and I've never heard the 120mm fan since I got it. It got very good reviews and can output ~455 watts. Plus, it has 35A on dual 12V rails. It's only $40 on newegg. I have it and it powered a dual HDD, dual DVD, 7800GT @500/1200, an Opty 144 @ 2.9, 1.575V and three case fans very stabe. I've seen it doing SLI too.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817189003

If your happy, that's all that matters. I would buy a VG used PSU for $40 over any Xclio

Your unit was rated at 25C or below, has no aPFC and is lucky to see 70% efficiency.
The FSP 400 GLN is >75% efficient, has aPFC and rated at 50C. The 5150G is 77%, has
aPFC and is rated at 50C. Both would live longer lives and supply cleaner current than the
Xclio.


...Galvanized

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: elpres05
If you are to understand heat sinks in detail and how each of them work in relation to phyiscs, HERE

Unfortunately, GalvanizedYankee posted above, so I suspect some bashing on my post

I have read through your site.....
what you describe as a relationship to physics is wrong!
Also alot of what you state as fact is hardly fact considering there are way too many variables from computer to computer to make alot of the statements you make!!

nuff said!!

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee

Originally posted by: firewolfsm
I'm scared to argue with Galvanized but I really think the XClio 450bl is worth it. It has a black rubber coating covering the whole thing (which looks cool too) and I've never heard the 120mm fan since I got it. It got very good reviews and can output ~455 watts. Plus, it has 35A on dual 12V rails. It's only $40 on newegg. I have it and it powered a dual HDD, dual DVD, 7800GT @500/1200, an Opty 144 @ 2.9, 1.575V and three case fans very stabe. I've seen it doing SLI too.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817189003

If your happy, that's all that matters. I would buy a VG used PSU for $40 over any Xclio

Your unit was rated at 25C or below, has no aPFC and is lucky to see 70% efficiency.
The FSP 400 GLN is >75% efficient, has aPFC and rated at 50C. The 5150G is 77%, has
aPFC and is rated at 50C. Both would live longer lives and supply cleaner current than the
Xclio.


...Galvanized

This is why i dont trust anyone more then galvenized when it comes to power supplies

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Originally posted by: TrevorRC

Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
The two best deals on a fairly quiet PSU atm imho, are at http://www.ewiz.com.

The Fortron FSP-400 GLN for <$50 or the Enhance ENP-5150G for <$65 if you want more
12V omph, it's combined is 28A. Both are better than the Enermax Noise Taker they are
now pushing with red high-lited ink.

If you want better than either for quiet, the Seasonic $12 will be$t either of'em.


...Galvanized

:thumbsup:

Especially like the Seasonic comments Not worth the cash.... put in your own fans for the extra cash. Deck it out And so on.
--Trevor

Just my $.02. Seasonics are worth the cash if the application requires them. For most machines, Seasonics may not be warranted or necessary. But they are definitely worth the money.

 

[Syzzi]

Thanks a lot for your replies people and for your advice GalvanizedYankee. I can't always buy the same models over here you guys can in the US, but I learnt a lot more than I thought I would when I created the thread

 

[One43637]

another vote for the Seasonic S12. the new revisions have sleeved cables too.

edit:
forgot the link.

http://svc.com/p6zo6f3blr.html

 

[smthmlk]

heh, i wouldn't trust anyone on these forums.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

Originally posted by: smthmlk
heh, i wouldn't trust anyone on these forums.

Amen to that comment. I don't even trust myself at times.


...Galvanized

 

[jonnyGURU]

Syzzi,

I noticed the title of the thread is "simple physics" but I'm missing elements of the equation.

80MM to 80MM cooled PSU provide the best cooling... for themselves.

PSU's with 120MM fans provide the best cooling for the chassis, but not the PSU.

I didn't see in this thread what kind of chassis cooling you plan to implement. This is important.

If you use no exhaust fan on the back of your case, all of the hot air of the case will pump through your power supply causing the power supply to have poor performance.

If you use a power supply with a single inside mounted intake fan (your typical single 120MM design) and a chassis exhaust fan that moves too many CFM's (typically located just below the PSU,) and do not have ample induction of cool air, then you run the risk of "robbing" the power supply of cool air. Essentially you create a venturi effect that pulls air away from the PSU. This doesn't happen with dual 80MM cooled PSU's, of course, because the outside fan creates a vacuum of sorts insisde the PSU housing.

I've found that the ideal combination is either a PSU with a pair of 80's and a case with equal intake and exhaust fans or, if you use a PSU with a single 120MM, a fan in the back that moves the same or less air than the fan in the PSU and an intake fan that moves at least as much air as the PSU.

Hope this helps!

 

[Syzzi]

Thanks for the info jonny, but I hope it'll be ok as the case has a 120mm exhaust, and single 120mm intakes on the front, side and top. I think, if the S12 is indeed one with a 120mm intake on the bottom (can't seem to tell by the pics I've seen), the airflow should balance out ok.

 

[jonnyGURU]

Is this a case or a vacuum cleaner?

You're worried about a noisy HSF or PSU, but have a case with four fans?

The side panel should not have a fan. Only a vent over the CPU. There should also be a vent below the GPU of your video card. This makes the case TAC compliant.

There's nothing wrong with a "chimney" fan on top, but I am curious to see how it's supposed to exhaust when there's a PSU in the way.

Yes, a Seasonic S12 has one intake 120MM that sucks air in off of the bottom. And like I said, if you have an exhaust fan mounted in the case directly below that that moves more air than the PSU fan, you'll shorten the life of your PSU.

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Hmmm. I never thought about robbing the air of my PSUs. I'll get some pics together for a later post...