MBR and partitions

[crazychicken]

Where exactly is the MBR? before all partitions?

here is the problem

i had 98 FE (first edition) installed on a 15gb partition (primary) then i installed xp on a 60gb partition (logical)

i decided i wanted 98SE, so i formatted the primary, and installed SE.

SE worked fine, but the boot loader that XP installed was gone.

i used the XP Repair console to do

fixmbr c:
fixmbr d:
and
fixpart

but i didn't understand what they were doing

i can still see all data when i boot from XP on a different drive, so all i need to do is fix the boot loader and make both partitions bootable

anyone have recommendations on how to do this?

thanks
david

 

[Wolfsraider]

what i do:

make two primary partitions(i use partition commander for this or partition magic) then make c: active,load 98se to d: drive when installing.load xp to c: drive volla now you have a boot loader that allows a choice of which drive to enter

hope this helps
mike

 

[crazychicken]

But i already have the OS's installed, i now just need to make them bootable

i really would like to avoid starting over

david

 

[crazychicken]

i'm confused

whats the difference between having a primary and a logical and 2 primaries?

i heard also that you have to install 98 on the first partition, C:
is that not true

again, trying not to start over here, just make my current situation booable again


thanks
edit bump

 

[crazychicken]

ok, so i converted my logical xp drive to primary w/ part. magic 7, so now i made it active and bootable, but still when i try to do fixmbr and stuff, when i try to boot it just stops, no errors, just flashing white cursor

i am really stumped

any ideas?

david
bump

 

[Wolfsraider]

sorry so long in posting been trying some "new" games lol


if you have xp working and can access the boot loader file

start-my computer-view system information-advanced-start up and recovery-settings-edit manually

here is mine on xp as c and 98se as d

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect
C:\ = "Microsoft Windows"

it may or may not work just copy this and highlight all the text and paste it in place of yours provided it is set up like mine however there is no guarentee that this will fix it it did not work on my last fubar lol


mike

 

[crazychicken]

that looks promising.. however i cannot even boot to xp from the drive w/ the problem

do you know where the file is stored so i can edit it manually after i boot from a different drive?

thanks
david

 

[XeonTux]

Where exactly is the MBR? before all partitions?
. . .
i'm confused
whats the difference between having a primary and a logical and 2 primaries?

i heard also that you have to install 98 on the first partition, C:
is that not true

The MBR is the first 512 bytes on the hard drive. The MBR can store info for 4 parttions, and these partitions can be primary or extended. Logical partitions exist within extended partitions, but info on logical partitions is NOT stored in the MBR - it is a linked list where the first logical partition points to the second, the second to the third, and so on...

I have not yet found a Micros~1 OS that likes multiple primary partitions on the same hard drive (dunno about XP, I'm guessing no). It is flat out impossible to create multiple primary partitions on the same drive with MS FDISK. It is possible to create them, say with linux fdisk, but MS OSes won't see more than one primary partition per drive.

Sorry I know nothing about XP's bootloaders, good luck

 

[cleverhandle]

I have not yet found a Micros~1 OS that likes multiple primary partitions on the same hard drive (dunno about XP, I'm guessing no). It is flat out impossible to create multiple primary partitions on the same drive with MS FDISK. It is possible to create them, say with linux fdisk, but MS OSes won't see more than one primary partition per drive.

Um... I have four primaries on my disk - 1 for W98, 1 for XP, 1 Linux root, and 1 Linux swap. Obviously, the Windows installations can't read the Linux data, nor can W98 read the NTFS of XP, but XP reads W98 just fine, and reports all 4 partitions in disk-management. I created the W98 partition with MS fdisk, created the others with XP, and changed the types for the linux partitions with cfdisk.

 

[cleverhandle]

crazychicken: Your 98SE installation is operational, correct? (just making sure I'm following) And XP is not? Here's what's supposed to happen: the MBR is written Windows98-style - i.e. it passes off control to the first active partition. That's the W98 one, which works (I think?). Now, when XP is installed, it drops ntldr.exe and it's associated files into the W98 partition - control is still passed from the MBR to partition 1 (98), but the boot process on partition 1 brings up ntldr. As you noted, you wiped ntldr accidentally when you installed 98SE over 98FE. So the MBR is perfectly fine, but you're missing ntldr. What you want to do: well, I haven't done this before, but I'm pretty sure that "fixboot" is all you need. That should write a new boot-sector to the W98 partition and (I think) restore ntldr.exe as well. If that doesn't work, I'd try the automatic repair - which you get to from the XP CD by pretending like you're going to make a new installation and then choosing "repair" when it presents you with a list of partitions.

Hope this helps...

 

[crazychicken]

actually my 98 partition is not bootable either

ok now i'm getting confused.
i tried the fixmbr fixboot stuff to no avail. so then i ran a repair XP install, and it still wont boot!??

i am just so shocked that i can't get either partition to boot because both of them are still in perfect shape (i can read all data after booting from another drive).


anyother brilliant ideas?

david
bump

 

[crazychicken]

here is my partition info according to part. magic 7


PowerQuest PartitionInfo 7.0 -- Windows NT/2000 Version
Date Generated: 09/15/02 20:53:10
Copyright (c)1994-2001, PowerQuest Corporation
Permission is granted for this utility to be freely copied so long
as it is not modified in any way. All other rights are reserved.

PowerQuest, makers of PartitionMagic(r), Drive Image(tm), and DriveCopy(tm), can be reached at:
Voice: 801-437-8900
Fax: 801-226-8941
Web site: http://support.powerquest.com/support.html
E-mail: magic@powerquest.com

General System Information:
Total Physical Memory (bytes): 536,313,856
Used Physical Memory: (bytes): 146,788,352
Maximum Page File Size: (bytes): 1,311,735,808
Current Page File Size: (bytes): 102,973,440



===========================================================================================================
Disk Geometry Information for Disk 1: 787 Cylinders, 128 Heads, 63 Sectors/Track
System PartSect # Boot BCyl Head Sect FS ECyl Head Sect StartSect NumSects
===========================================================================================================
0 0 80 0 1 1 0B 786 127 63 63 6,346,305

===========================================================================================================
Disk Geometry Information for Disk 2: 9729 Cylinders, 255 Heads, 63 Sectors/Track
System PartSect # Boot BCyl Head Sect FS ECyl Head Sect StartSect NumSects
===========================================================================================================
WIN98 0 0 00 0 1 1 0C 1023 254 63 63 30,603,762
Info: Begin C,H,S values were large drive placeholders.
Info: End C,H,S values were large drive placeholders.
Actual values are:
0 0 00 0 1 1 0C 1904 254 63 63 30603762
0 1 80 1023 1 1 07 1023 254 63 30,603,888 125,692,497
Info: Begin C,H,S values were large drive placeholders.
Info: End C,H,S values were large drive placeholders.
Actual values are:
0 1 80 1905 1 1 07 9728 254 63 30603888 125692497



===========================================================================================================
Partition Information for Disk 1: 3,098.8 Megabytes
Volume PartType Status Size MB PartSect # StartSect TotalSects UsedSects FreeSects
===========================================================================================================
C: FAT32 Pri,Boot 3,098.8 0 0 63 6,346,305 6,346,305 0


===========================================================================================================
Partition Information for Disk 2: 76,316.6 Megabytes
Volume PartType Status Size MB PartSect # StartSect TotalSects UsedSects FreeSects
===========================================================================================================
F:WIN98 FAT32X Pri 14,943.2 0 0 63 30,603,762 30,603,762 0
E: NTFS Pri,Boot 61,373.3 0 1 30,603,888 125,692,497 125,692,497 0


===========================================================================================================
Boot Record for drive C: (Drive: 1, Starting sector: 63, Type: FAT32)
===========================================================================================================
1. Jump: EB 58 90
2. OEM Name: MSWIN4.1
3. Bytes per Sector: 512
4. Sectors per Cluster: 8
5. Reserved Sectors: 36
6. Number of FAT's: 2
7. Reserved: 0x0000
8. Reserved: 0x0000
9. Media Descriptor: 0xF8
10. Sectors per FAT: 0
11. Sectors per Track: 63 (0x3F)
12. Number of Heads: 128 (0x80)
13. Hidden Sectors: 63 (0x3F)
14. Big Total Sectors: 6346305 (0x60D641)
15. Big Sectors per FAT: 6186
16. Extended Flags: 0x0000
17. FS Version: 0
18. First Cluster of Root: 2 (0x2)
19. FS Info Sector: 1
20. Backup Boot Sector: 6
21. Reserved: 000000000000000000000000
22. Drive ID: 0x80
23. Reserved for NT: 0x00
24. Extended Boot Sig: 0x29
25. Serial Number: 0x0C4FFA6F
26. Volume Name:
27. File System Type: FAT32
28. Boot Signature: 0xAA55

===========================================================================================================
Boot Record for drive F: (Drive: 2, Starting sector: 63, Type: FAT32)
===========================================================================================================
1. Jump: EB 58 90
2. OEM Name: MSWIN4.1
3. Bytes per Sector: 512
4. Sectors per Cluster: 16
5. Reserved Sectors: 36
6. Number of FAT's: 2
7. Reserved: 0x0000
8. Reserved: 0x0000
9. Media Descriptor: 0xF8
10. Sectors per FAT: 0
11. Sectors per Track: 63 (0x3F)
12. Number of Heads: 255 (0xFF)
13. Hidden Sectors: 63 (0x3F)
14. Big Total Sectors: 30603762 (0x1D2F9F2)
15. Big Sectors per FAT: 14930
16. Extended Flags: 0x0000
17. FS Version: 0
18. First Cluster of Root: 2 (0x2)
19. FS Info Sector: 1
20. Backup Boot Sector: 6
21. Reserved: 000000000000000000000000
22. Drive ID: 0x80
23. Reserved for NT: 0x00
24. Extended Boot Sig: 0x29
25. Serial Number: 0x3D8112B1
26. Volume Name: WIN98
27. File System Type: FAT32
28. Boot Signature: 0xAA55

===========================================================================================================
Boot Record for drive E: (Drive: 2, Starting sector: 30,603,888, Type: NTFS)
===========================================================================================================
1. Jump: EB 52 90
2. OEM Name: NTFS
3. Bytes per Sector: 512
4. Sectors per Cluster: 8
5. Reserved Sectors: 0
6. Number of FATs: 0
7. Root Dir Entries: 0
8. Total Sectors: 0
9. Media Descriptor: 0xF8
10. Sectors per FAT: 0
11. Sectors per Track: 63 (0x3F)
12. Number of Heads: 255 (0xFF)
13. Hidden Sectors: 63 (0x3F)
14. Total Sectors (>32MB): 0 (0x0)
15. Unused: 0x80008000
16. Total NTFS Sectors: 125692496
17. MFT Start Cluster: 786432
18. MFT Mirror Start Clust: 7855781
19. Clusters per FRS: 246
20. Clusters per Index Blk: 1
21. Serial Number: 0x5640B3A840B38CED
22. Checksum: 0 (0x0)
23. Boot Signature: 0xAA55

 

[cleverhandle]

Hmm... that doesn't sound pretty. Looks like your drive letters got swapped around a lot, probably due to changing the partition info with PM. Could be that registry settings are all wrong now. Also, I've had an XP install get very upset with me after removing a logical partition within one of XP's extensions. You mentioned that you converted a logical to a primary partition before. So that might be contributing to the problem too.

If you can read your data, burn it off and reinstall. It will take less time than sorting this out, if that's even possible.

 

[dortega]

I don't think any of the other people who replied below seem to understand the issue at hand.

1. Restore back to original Win98 (primary c: ), winxp (logical d: ). This was never the issue with why XP wouldn't work.

2. The reason XP won't load is that when you installed 98SE, you overrode the XP NT Bootloader. It now doesn't have the files on C: that it needs to boot. I know a reinstall of XP will solve it, but there is a chance that a XP Repair could as well (experience with the former, not the latter).

Whatever you do from now on, make SURE XP is the last OS installed or the OS on the primary partition. Reason? It can boot to multiple Microsoft OSs, whereas Win98 can't. If Win98 goes in last, it will override the WinXP bootloader, and you're back to square one...

Hope this helps.

 

[KF]

Originally posted by: crazychicken
ok, so i converted my logical xp drive to primary w/ part. magic 7, so now i made it active and bootable, but still when i try to do fixmbr and stuff, when i try to boot it just stops, no errors, just flashing white cursor

i am really stumped

any ideas?

david
bump

I'm not sure this is any clearer than what people have already said. Probably not. But here's my shot:

You are getting into areas that depend on very specific info and commands and it's getting kind of deep already. Cleverhandle told you what you really have to know, except you may have redone your partitions. You also need a BOOT.INI file described by Wolfsraider.

You want there to be only one primary partition. If you have two, and I think that's what you did, you need a special program to boot from one partition OR the other, a "boot manager". But if you want to be able see and use both partitions from both operating systems, you have to have only one primary partition, and one extended partition. That is the way Microsoft decided to handle it.

I think you ought to convert back to what you had using Partition Magic, unless you want to reinstall everything all over again. For one thing if XP was installed on the D: drive, it won't work at all if it becomes the C: drive.

MS originated something called an extended partition. Although it is really a second primary partion, Windows uses it entirely differently, so it is simpler to think of it differently. Extended partitions can be broken into any amount of subsections called "logical partitions". Windows OSes use one primary partition plus they can use any number of logical partitions. Since both Win98 and XP use some files and directories which have identical names, it is easier to have the two coexist if you put them in different partitions.

Both XP and Win98 use startup files on the primary partition which have to be located there. The rest can be elsewhere. You can actually have Win98 on the F: partition and XP on the E: partition if you like. No problem.

When you installed W98 after XP, you wiped out several files that XP needs to start, and also the boot sector that starts XP (as opposed to W98). The easiest way to get back the way you want it, without having to know a lot of details, is to reinstall XP again "over" itself. This keeps your XP settings if that is what you need to do. XP does not wipe out the files W98 needs, plus it installs a selection program, that allows you to boot Win98 or XP by selecting from a menu screen.

 

[crazychicken]

ALL SET GUYS!! THANKS FOR THE HELP!!!

i deleted my 98 partition (as there was no important data), moved the XP part. to the beginning of the drive w/ part magic, made it active and primary, then "repaired" XP. only thing i lost was my video card drivers, as i deleted one of the ATI install folders because i didn't think it was necessary, oops : )


thanks again

david

 

[vansouza]

When you formatted the C drive you lost the XP boot loader... I think the only solution is to reinstall XP...