Michael Moore is THE MAN!!!!!!!!!

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Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: conjur
Just more proof that the Academy can be bought and doesn't care what a true documentary. Giving the Best Documentary Oscar to a film based on lies and distortion??? Sad...very sad.
I still have yet to see anyone demonstrate that Bowling is actually based in pure fiction. Yes, he may have edited Heston's speech in such a way that it was not fluid and cohesive, but it doesn't seem that any of it was purely lies. Perhaps the Lockheed incident but that was a very small portion of the film and the lie seems to have been a technicality (missiles vs. rockets?)
Want more? Here you go:

3. Animated sequence equating NRA with KKK. In an animated history send-up, Bowling equates the NRA with the Klan, suggesting NRA was founded in 1871, "the same year that the Klan became an illegal terrorist organization." Bowling goes on to depict an NRA character helping to light a burning cross.


Fact: The Klan wasn't founded in 1871, but in 1866, and quickly became a terrorist organization. One might claim that it technically became an "illegal" terrorist organization with passage of the federal Ku Klux Klan Act and Enforcement Act in 1871. These criminalized interference with civil rights, and empowered the President to suspend habeas corpus and to use troops to suppress the Klan.


Fact: The Klan Act and Enforcement Act were signed into law by President Ulysess S. Grant. Grant used their provisions vigorously, suspending habeas corpus in South Carolina, sending troops into that and other states; under his leadership over 5,000 arrests were made and the Klan was dealt a serious (if all too short-lived) blow.

Fact: Grant's vigor in disrupting the Klan earned him unpopularity among many whites, but Frederick Douglass praised him, and an associate of Douglass wrote that African-Americans "will ever cherish a grateful remembrance of his name, fame and great services."

Fact: After Grant left the White House, the NRA elected him as its eighth president.

Fact: After Grant's term, the NRA elected General Philip Sheridan, who had removed the governors of Texas and Lousiana for failure to oppose Klan terror.

Fact: The affinity of NRA for enemies of the Klan is hardly surprising. The NRA was founded in New York by two former Union officers, its first president was an Army of the Potomac commander, and eight of its first ten presidents were Union veterans.

Fact: During the 1950s and 1960s, groups of blacks organized as NRA chapters in order to obtain surplus military rifles to fight off Klansmen.

Fact: The tradition continues. Moore does his best to suggest Heston is a racist. Heston picked discriminatory restaurants and from 1963 (i.e., when the civil rights movement was still struggling for support) worked with, and admired, Martin Luther King, and helped King break Hollywood's color barrier (the fact that there was a barrier illustrates how far Heston was in advance of the rest of the celebrity-types.) Here's Heston's comments at the 2001 Congress on Racial Equality Martin Luther King dinner (also attended by NRA's Executive Vice President, and presided over by NRA director, and CORE President, Roy Innes).



4. Shooting at Buell Elementary School in Michigan. Bowling depicts the juvenile shooter as a sympathetic youngster who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school. "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl."


Fact: The little boy was the class bully, already suspended from school for stabbing another kid with a pencil. Since the incident, he has stabbed another child with a knife. (Sources for all data are given at the end of this section).


Fact: The uncle's house was the neighborhood crack-house. The uncle (together with the shooter's father, then serving a prison term for theft and cocaine possession, and his aunt and maternal grandmother) earned their living off drug dealing. The gun was stolen by one of the uncle's customers and purchased in exchange for drugs.

Bowling further depicts the shooter's mother as a victim of welfare reform, which forced her to work two jobs at low pay, to be evicted from her house, and to place the shooter in his uncle's house. "In order to get food stamps and health care for her children, Tamarla had to work as part of the State of Michigan's welfare-to-work program." "Although Tamarla worked up to 70 hours per week at the two jobs in the mall, she did not earn enough to pay her rent."


Fact: The shooter's mother had been promoted, and was making $7.85/hour, or about $1250 per month from that job, and an unknown amount from the other, plus food stamps and health benefits.


Fact: The rent for the house from which they were evicted was $300 a month.


Fact: Under the Michigan welfare reform, the family qualified for free child care and rent subsidies.

Links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

5. The Taliban and American Aid. After discussing military assistance to various countries, Bowling asserts that the U.S. gave $245 million in aid to the Taliban government of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001, and then shows aircraft hitting the twin towers to illustrate the result.


Fact: The aid in question was humanitarian assistance, given through UN and nongovernmental organizations, to relieve famine in Afghanistan.

6. Canadian Comparisons. Bowling compares the US to Canada, depicting the latter as an Eden of nonviolence and low homicide rates (despite having a plentiful supply of firearms). Only a cynic would suggest this might be linked to the film's Canadian funding.


Fact: Canada is hardly comparable to the far more urbanized United States. Violence rates correlate strongly to population density. Canada has about 3.3 persons per square kilometer; the U.S. about 29.1. Canada has only four cities with population over a million.

Fact: In 2001 (the most recent year for which FBI data are available State by State) the nine American states with land borders contiguous to Canada had an average homicide rate of 2.2 per 100,000 persons, far less than the rest of the US and not much above Canada's 1.8 rate. North Dakota, with a population density almost identical to that of Canada (3.5/sq. km.), had a homicide rate of 1.1, lower than that of Canada. Its Canadian neighbor, Manitoba, had a rate of 2.96. Quebec (1.89 rate) borders on Vermont (1.1) New York (5.0) and New Hampshire (1.4). Canadian data.

Fact: New York is of course a special case; most of its homicides occur in the urbanized southeast part of the State. If we look at the four New York counties which border on Canada (Clinton, Franklin, St. Lawrence and Jefferson), we find that in 2001 three counties had no homicides at all, and Jefferson County had one. Two of the counties also reported not a single theft that year.

Fact: If Bowling wanted to find areas where doors can be left unlocked, it did not need to go to Canada. Two of those four NY counties also reported not a single theft. 85% of U.S. counties reported no (as in zero) youth homicides in 1997; in any given year, about a third of them will report no homicides at all. In large expanses of the US, generally characterized by low population density, homicide is almost unknown.

If we want to be more specific and compare urban areas near the border, rather than states and provinces:

Canadian city homicide rates: Toronto 1; Montreal 3; Winnipeg 3; Windsor 4 (source)

US city homicide rates: Madison WI 1.4; Minneapolis 2.6; Bismarck ND 0 (not a typo, zero); Boise 2; Duluth 2 Portland ME 1.2 (source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2001)

7. Miscellaneous. Even the Canadian government is getting into the act. In one scene, Bowling shows Moore casually buying ammunition at an Ontario Walmart. He asks us to "look at what I, a foreign citizen, was able to do at a local Canadian Wal-Mart." He enters the store and buys several boxes of ammunition without a question being raised. "That's right. I could buy as much ammunition as I wanted, in Canada."

Canadian officials have pointed out that the buy is either staged or illegal: Canadian law requires all ammunition buyers to present proper identification. (The law, in effect since 1998, requires non-Canadians to present picture ID and a gun importation permit).

While we're at it: Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy, while Moore solemnly pronounces that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972." Strangely, Moore does not show the plaque.

Actually, the plaque reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972." This is pretty mild compared to the rest of Bowling, granted. But it illustrates that the viewer can't even trust Bowling to honestly read the inscription on a plaque.

All of the above information is from here.

ZV
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore once again puts distortions and contradictions before the truth

"The problem is, once you delve beneath the humor, it turns out his "facts and hard-core analysis" are frequently inaccurate, contradictory and confused. At one point in the film, Moore apparently even alters a Bush-Quayle campaign ad, changing history to make a point. Like many of the political celebrities increasingly filling our TV screens and bookstores, he is entertaining, explicitly partisan, and all too willing to twist facts to promote himself and his vision of the truth."

Some people just never let fact or the truth get in the way of what they want to believe.

Of course some are just lying trolls, but that's their problem.

 

LordMaul

Lifer
Nov 16, 2000
15,168
1
0
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: godmare
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: aphex
Originally posted by: Codewiz
"FICTICOUS ELECTION RESULTS"

DUMBASS. He really has no idea what this country is about.......


No idea? It seems to me he's got the 'freedom of speech' part down pat.

Yeah he can say whatever the hell he wants but he is DEAD WRONG. Bush was elected fair and square......

...by the Supreme Court

get your head out of moonies butt and wake up. The Supreme Court did not put Bush into office. If you want to dispute this, have your facts ready.

Hahahaha, I'm just glad I know which buttons to push!

Sp, in other words, you just don't have any rebuttle because you have no argument?

I, unlike some liberals, am able to move past certain things. What's the point of fussing over spilled milk? I was only trying to rouse some spirits in Michael Moore fashion

An elite troll. It's a shame what this board is becoming.

Wow, OK, well, I completely disagree with koni, and I agree with you on the Bush issue...however, I think you and the other conservatives are giving the rest of us an even worse name by trailing behind koni like a bunch of rats waiting for him to fall down. He obviously doesn't want to figh...er..."debate," so let him alone. Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and jump off of it. :disgust:
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Ornery
I just LOVE our Democrat's celebrity icons. It helps put a face to all the anti war posters here. Uh, NUFF SAID.

Buh, Hanoi Jane is a crackpot and was almost forty years ago. Can we finally put her behind us and start to realize that most war protestors today (of course with few, many exceptions) are levelheaded and completely and utterly UNLIKE her?

Yeah like Michael Moore right???? What a joke. Yes I know there are SOME levelheaded anti-war people but I haven't met many.

Oh come on, Michael Moore is an idiot. In case you didn't know, majorities in 90% of the countries around the world are against the war. Do you honestly believe they are all as idiotic as Hanoi Jane and Michael Moore?

Why do I care what they think? They DO NOT have the best interests of the US in mind. They don't care what happens to the US. Actually the French would like to see the US "fall from grace" since they are utterly IRRELEVENT!!

I am an american and I believe that Iraq is a threat. I don't care if France, Germany and Russia think Iraq is under control. I care that my family is at risk so I support a initiative to disarm Saddam. Inspections have failed for 10 years. No reason for them to work now. War is the only choice......and I don't care what 90% of the people think.

 

yellowperil

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2000
4,598
0
0
How does it being an accurate representation of fact prohibit a bias? It is entirely possible (entirely simple, in fact) to bias a documentary while still having all the facts completely correct. You are making the novice mistake of equating "fact-based" with "non-biased".

Rule 11 of the rules for the Academy Award: a documentary must be non-fictional, and even re-enactments (much less doctoring of a speech) must stress fact and not fiction.

ZV

No where in your quote of the rule does it say it has to be an accurate representation of the facts. I would like to see where that phrase comes from. In fact, the term 'accurate representation of the facts' is a fiction in itself when you yourself acknowledge that facts can be represented differently by different people. If Michael Moore misstated undisputed facts, then I agree it should not be considered a documentary (BTW I would like to see you cite some specific examples from the movie). But if he made inferences in a matter-of-fact way, that may be his representation of fact but it certainly does not take away from the film's documentary status.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
FACT-CHECKING MICHAEL MOORE: Forbes says that "Bowling for Columbine" comes up short in the accuracy department. Excerpt:


TITLE: Moore titled the movie Bowling for Columbine because, he suggests, the two kids who shot up Columbine High in Littleton, Colo., went to a 6 a.m. bowling class on the day of the attack.
ACTUALLY: Cool story, but police say it's not true. They say the shooters skipped their bowling class that day.

MISSILES: Moore wonders whether kids at Columbine might be driven to violence because of the "weapons of mass destruction" made in Lockheed Martin's assembly plant in Littleton. Moore shows giant rockets being assembled.
ACTUALLY: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.

WELFARE: Moore places blame for a shooting by a child in Michigan on the work-to-welfare program that prevented the boy's mother from spending time with him.
ACTUALLY: Moore doesn't mention that mom had sent the boy to live in a house where her brother and a friend kept drugs and guns.

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.
ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check.
.....

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: conjur
Just more proof that the Academy can be bought and doesn't care what a true documentary. Giving the Best Documentary Oscar to a film based on lies and distortion??? Sad...very sad.

I still have yet to see anyone demonstrate that Bowling is actually based in pure fiction. Yes, he may have edited Heston's speech in such a way that it was not fluid and cohesive, but it doesn't seem that any of it was purely lies. Perhaps the Lockheed incident but that was a very small portion of the film and the lie seems to have been a technicality (missiles vs. rockets?)
Oh...I forgot. You must subscribe to the Clinton definition of the word 'lies'.
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Ornery
I just LOVE our Democrat's celebrity icons. It helps put a face to all the anti war posters here. Uh, NUFF SAID.

Buh, Hanoi Jane is a crackpot and was almost forty years ago. Can we finally put her behind us and start to realize that most war protestors today (of course with few, many exceptions) are levelheaded and completely and utterly UNLIKE her?



What world are you living on? The war protesters of today are giving hope to the enemy just like that b!tch did.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Moore is a moron, I am actually rather upset that the Academy chose to discredit themselves by rewarding that piece of trash for his piece of trash.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Originally posted by: yellowperil
How does it being an accurate representation of fact prohibit a bias? It is entirely possible (entirely simple, in fact) to bias a documentary while still having all the facts completely correct. You are making the novice mistake of equating "fact-based" with "non-biased".

Rule 11 of the rules for the Academy Award: a documentary must be non-fictional, and even re-enactments (much less doctoring of a speech) must stress fact and not fiction.

ZV
No where in your quote of the rule does it say it has to be an accurate representation of the facts. I would like to see where that phrase comes from. In fact, the term 'accurate representation of the facts' is a fiction in itself when you yourself acknowledge that facts can be represented differently by different people. If Michael Moore misstated undisputed facts, then I agree it should not be considered a documentary (BTW I would like to see you cite some specific examples from the movie). But if he made inferences in a matter-of-fact way, that may be his representation of fact but it certainly does not take away from the film's documentary status.
"Accurate representation of the facts" was from memory and is equivalent in meaning to the quoted rule above. Specific examples of Moore's misrepresentations of facts are cited above in my previous post.

Moore consistantly alters timelines and states "facts" that are untrue. (E.g. Moore states (referring to the mother of a shooter in Michigan) that, "Although Tamarla worked up to 70 hours per week at the two jobs in the mall, she did not earn enough to pay her rent.". The fact of the matter is that from one job only she was making $1,250 per month (plus whatever she made at her second job) and that rent for the house from which they were evicted was $300 per month. Also the fact is that she and her son qualified for rent assistance and free child care.)

ZV
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
Originally posted by: db
Just think: if we all lived in Iraq (including MM), being outspoken could cost you your life, and even discussing stuff the way we do on this board would be forbidden and get us all in a jail cell or worse.

So being a loud mouthed idiot that toyed with facts to get his point is an imprisonable offense there?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Factual Errors in Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine

"....
"I recently saw the Michael Moore documentary Bowling for Columbine. Most reviewers seem to have taken at face value his claim that nuclear missiles roll through Littleton while the children sleep. Your web site seems to say that you primarily do projects for NASA, such as space delivery systems and the like. Which is true, or are both true?"

I was considerably surprised when I received a response right from the horse's mouth: Evan McCollum, the poor guy Moore interviewed. He pointed out a basic problem with Moore's "connection": they don't make nuclear missiles in Littleton.

They don't make attack helicopters, jets, or the Stealth bomber either. Littleton is the headquarters for Lockheed's aerospace production. They build much of NASA's fleet of ships, and they make Titan rockets that carry payloads into space. In McCollum's words, "The word 'missiles' implies a weapon. Although other units of Lockheed Martin Corporation elsewhere in the country produce weapons ... we make no weapons at the Littleton-area facility Moore visited." Those "missiles" rolling through town are Titan rockets. McCollum said this:

"Some viewers also may be left with the impression that we transport our space launch vehicles at night for some questionable reason. The fact is they are huge and move slowly; we prefer to avoid causing traffic jams, so we transport them from our facility to the airport at night when traffic is comparatively much lighter."

And guess what? Moore knew this. Anyone who checked Lockheed's website would know it too. McCollum says "I provided specific information to Moore about the space launch vehicles we build to launch spacecraft for NASA, NOAA, the Dept. of Defense and commercial customers, including DirecTV and EchoStar." That's right. The Littleton facility is responsible for such weapons of mass destruction as the DirecTV satellite. Moore knew that his claims about what Lockheed did in Littleton were false, but he made them anyway, trusting that nobody whose opinion mattered to him would bother checking.
..."

 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
I didn't even see it, but i'd bet that it must have been incredibly stupid if piano man liked it.
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: conjur
Just more proof that the Academy can be bought and doesn't care what a true documentary. Giving the Best Documentary Oscar to a film based on lies and distortion??? Sad...very sad.
I still have yet to see anyone demonstrate that Bowling is actually based in pure fiction. Yes, he may have edited Heston's speech in such a way that it was not fluid and cohesive, but it doesn't seem that any of it was purely lies. Perhaps the Lockheed incident but that was a very small portion of the film and the lie seems to have been a technicality (missiles vs. rockets?)
Want more? Here you go:

3. Animated sequence equating NRA with KKK. In an animated history send-up, Bowling equates the NRA with the Klan

Wrong. "And, in 1891, the same year the Klan became an illegal terrorist organization, another organization was founded. The National Rifle Association" is what the film states. Later..."A great year for America, the KKK, and the NRA. Of course, they had nothing to do with each other, this was just a coincidence." Does that "equate the NRA with the Klan? I don't think so...talk about stretching the truth, huh?

Fact: The Klan wasn't founded in 1871, but in 1866, and quickly became a terrorist organization. One might claim that it technically became an "illegal" terrorist organization with passage of the federal Ku Klux Klan Act and Enforcement Act in 1871. These criminalized interference with civil rights, and empowered the President to suspend habeas corpus and to use troops to suppress the Klan.

Okay, so what about that did Moore misrepresent? Seems nothing...

<snip>

Fact: Grant's vigor in disrupting the Klan earned him unpopularity among many whites, but Frederick Douglass praised him, and an associate of Douglass wrote that African-Americans "will ever cherish a grateful remembrance of his name, fame and great services."

Okay...again, Moore says nothing about Grant. This sounds a lot like the "my best friend is black" argument. Why even bring Grant up in the article, he wasn't mentioned in the film...

<snip>

5. The Taliban and American Aid. After discussing military assistance to various countries, Bowling asserts that the U.S. gave $245 million in aid to the Taliban government of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001, and then shows aircraft hitting the twin towers to illustrate the result.


Fact: The aid in question was humanitarian assistance, given through UN and nongovernmental organizations, to relieve famine in Afghanistan.

Again, is this direct lies? I don't think so. Leaning, certainly, but still based in fact...

6. Canadian Comparisons. Bowling compares the US to Canada, depicting the latter as an Eden of nonviolence and low homicide rates (despite having a plentiful supply of firearms). Only a cynic would suggest this might be linked to the film's Canadian funding.

This intro tells it all...does he deliberately state untrue facts? Nope. "depicting the latter as an Eden of nonviolence" describes it perfectly.

<snip>

7. Miscellaneous. Even the Canadian government is getting into the act. In one scene, Bowling shows Moore casually buying ammunition at an Ontario Walmart. He asks us to "look at what I, a foreign citizen, was able to do at a local Canadian Wal-Mart." He enters the store and buys several boxes of ammunition without a question being raised. "That's right. I could buy as much ammunition as I wanted, in Canada."

Canadian officials have pointed out that the buy is either staged or illegal: Canadian law requires all ammunition buyers to present proper identification. (The law, in effect since 1998, requires non-Canadians to present picture ID and a gun importation permit).

Again, this is called editing, not lying...

While we're at it: Bowling shows footage of a B-52 on display at the Air Force Academy, while Moore solemnly pronounces that the plaque under it "proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972." Strangely, Moore does not show the plaque.

Actually, the plaque reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972." This is pretty mild compared to the rest of Bowling, granted. But it illustrates that the viewer can't even trust Bowling to honestly read the inscription on a plaque.

Shot down a MIG ... what did it do, if not killing Vietnamese people? Force them to parachute out?
 

jahawkin

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2000
1,355
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore once again puts distortions and contradictions before the truth

"The problem is, once you delve beneath the humor, it turns out his "facts and hard-core analysis" are frequently inaccurate, contradictory and confused. At one point in the film, Moore apparently even alters a Bush-Quayle campaign ad, changing history to make a point. Like many of the political celebrities increasingly filling our TV screens and bookstores, he is entertaining, explicitly partisan, and all too willing to twist facts to promote himself and his vision of the truth."

Some people just never let fact or the truth get in the way of what they want to believe.

Of course some are just lying trolls, but that's their problem.

See, that's what the case for discrediting Bowling rests upon. Sure he added the "Horton released, then kills," (or whatever the exact inaccuracy is) to the end of the campaign ad, but what was the jist of the ad?? What was the message of the ad, and for that matter, Bush's campaign? Moore is just illustrating how the Repubs used fear of crime (ie, the black man) in their campaign. Are you going to deny this? So, in this example, there may be an inaccuracy or two, but his main point about the theme and message of the ad remains true.
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Ornery
I just LOVE our Democrat's celebrity icons. It helps put a face to all the anti war posters here. Uh, NUFF SAID.

Buh, Hanoi Jane is a crackpot and was almost forty years ago. Can we finally put her behind us and start to realize that most war protestors today (of course with few, many exceptions) are levelheaded and completely and utterly UNLIKE her?

Yeah like Michael Moore right???? What a joke. Yes I know there are SOME levelheaded anti-war people but I haven't met many.

Oh come on, Michael Moore is an idiot. In case you didn't know, majorities in 90% of the countries around the world are against the war. Do you honestly believe they are all as idiotic as Hanoi Jane and Michael Moore?

Why do I care what they think? They DO NOT have the best interests of the US in mind. They don't care what happens to the US. Actually the French would like to see the US "fall from grace" since they are utterly IRRELEVENT!!

I am an american and I believe that Iraq is a threat. I don't care if France, Germany and Russia think Iraq is under control. I care that my family is at risk so I support a initiative to disarm Saddam. Inspections have failed for 10 years. No reason for them to work now. War is the only choice......and I don't care what 90% of the people think.

You said you had never seen moderate antiwar people. I pointed out that a large portion of civilized populations worldwide are moderate and antiwar. And on another note...do you really feel that your family is in danger by Saddam? That's sad...
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Ornery
I just LOVE our Democrat's celebrity icons. It helps put a face to all the anti war posters here. Uh, NUFF SAID.

Buh, Hanoi Jane is a crackpot and was almost forty years ago. Can we finally put her behind us and start to realize that most war protestors today (of course with few, many exceptions) are levelheaded and completely and utterly UNLIKE her?



What world are you living on? The war protesters of today are giving hope to the enemy just like that b!tch did.

Giving hope to the enemy? In what way, may I ask?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: jahawkin
Originally posted by: etech
In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore once again puts distortions and contradictions before the truth

"The problem is, once you delve beneath the humor, it turns out his "facts and hard-core analysis" are frequently inaccurate, contradictory and confused. At one point in the film, Moore apparently even alters a Bush-Quayle campaign ad, changing history to make a point. Like many of the political celebrities increasingly filling our TV screens and bookstores, he is entertaining, explicitly partisan, and all too willing to twist facts to promote himself and his vision of the truth."

Some people just never let fact or the truth get in the way of what they want to believe.

Of course some are just lying trolls, but that's their problem.

See, that's what the case for discrediting Bowling rests upon. Sure he added the "Horton released, then kills," (or whatever the exact inaccuracy is) to the end of the campaign ad, but what was the jist of the ad?? What was the message of the ad, and for that matter, Bush's campaign? Moore is just illustrating how the Repubs used fear of crime (ie, the black man) in their campaign. Are you going to deny this? So, in this example, there may be an inaccuracy or two, but his main point about the theme and message of the ad remains true.


Is filmmaker Michael Moore a bigot?
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: Ornery
I just LOVE our Democrat's celebrity icons. It helps put a face to all the anti war posters here. Uh, NUFF SAID.

Buh, Hanoi Jane is a crackpot and was almost forty years ago. Can we finally put her behind us and start to realize that most war protestors today (of course with few, many exceptions) are levelheaded and completely and utterly UNLIKE her?

Yeah like Michael Moore right???? What a joke. Yes I know there are SOME levelheaded anti-war people but I haven't met many.

Oh come on, Michael Moore is an idiot. In case you didn't know, majorities in 90% of the countries around the world are against the war. Do you honestly believe they are all as idiotic as Hanoi Jane and Michael Moore?

Why do I care what they think? They DO NOT have the best interests of the US in mind. They don't care what happens to the US. Actually the French would like to see the US "fall from grace" since they are utterly IRRELEVENT!!

I am an american and I believe that Iraq is a threat. I don't care if France, Germany and Russia think Iraq is under control. I care that my family is at risk so I support a initiative to disarm Saddam. Inspections have failed for 10 years. No reason for them to work now. War is the only choice......and I don't care what 90% of the people think.

You said you had never seen moderate antiwar people. I pointed out that a large portion of civilized populations worldwide are moderate and antiwar. And on another note...do you really feel that your family is in danger by Saddam? That's sad...

Do you honestly think that the BILLIONS of dollars Saddam has that none of it goes to supporting terrorists? You are sad if you think that is true. Saddam hates the US and will support attacks on us anyway he can.

As asked many times before. All these moderate anti-war people want "PEACE" but as I heard asked in a wonderful talk radio show, "How does leaving Saddam in power promote Peace?" There can be no peace with Saddam in power.

And to quote another great man " If you do not kill evil under the terms of righteous, freedom-loving people like Americans then we will have to face evil in America on the evil's terms. That is unacceptable"



 

jahawkin

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2000
1,355
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: jahawkin
Originally posted by: etech
In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore once again puts distortions and contradictions before the truth

"The problem is, once you delve beneath the humor, it turns out his "facts and hard-core analysis" are frequently inaccurate, contradictory and confused. At one point in the film, Moore apparently even alters a Bush-Quayle campaign ad, changing history to make a point. Like many of the political celebrities increasingly filling our TV screens and bookstores, he is entertaining, explicitly partisan, and all too willing to twist facts to promote himself and his vision of the truth."

Some people just never let fact or the truth get in the way of what they want to believe.

Of course some are just lying trolls, but that's their problem.

See, that's what the case for discrediting Bowling rests upon. Sure he added the "Horton released, then kills," (or whatever the exact inaccuracy is) to the end of the campaign ad, but what was the jist of the ad?? What was the message of the ad, and for that matter, Bush's campaign? Moore is just illustrating how the Repubs used fear of crime (ie, the black man) in their campaign. Are you going to deny this? So, in this example, there may be an inaccuracy or two, but his main point about the theme and message of the ad remains true.


Is filmmaker Michael Moore a bigot?

Moore, on the one hand, criticizes the Oprah audience for their alleged unfair and irrational fear of blacks. But then he flips, and celebrates this alleged perception of black aggressiveness -- wishing more blacks had been on the Sept. 11 hijacked planes -- and chastises weak-kneed whites for their passivity successfully exploited by the Sept. 11 hijackers. Tell that to the widow of Flight 93's Todd Beamer and the other heroic passengers who stopped that plane from its likely Washington, D.C., destination.

I think Moore was being sarcastic with these comments.
 

yellowperil

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2000
4,598
0
0
"Accurate representation of the facts" was from memory and is equivalent in meaning to the quoted rule above. Specific examples of Moore's misrepresentations of facts are cited above in my previous post.

Moore consistantly alters timelines and states "facts" that are untrue. (E.g. Moore states (referring to the mother of a shooter in Michigan) that, "Although Tamarla worked up to 70 hours per week at the two jobs in the mall, she did not earn enough to pay her rent.". The fact of the matter is that from one job only she was making $1,250 per month (plus whatever she made at her second job) and that rent for the house from which they were evicted was $300 per month. Also the fact is that she and her son qualified for rent assistance and free child care.)

ZV

This was copied & pasted directly from one of the links posted on the site you linked:

The more months Tamarla Owens worked, the more precarious her situation became. Her rent had been paid out of her benefits, but this stopped in February 1999 after she took the job in January 1999. The family was living in a three-bedroom house for $300 a month. ?It was a nice house,? she said. ?We had lived there five years. There was a big yard and room for the kids to play.?

In October of 1999 her food stamps stopped. She was spending approximately $350 a month on food.

Meanwhile, her rent was no longer vendored and her utilities?water, electricity, and heat?were no longer subsidized. ?By this time, I couldn't get along, so I would pay my rent only every other month. We had no phone, no car and of course no cable television.

?I got a notice from the landlord that we would be evicted. A week prior to the eviction I took a week off from both of my jobs to look for a house. I was unsuccessful. I needed perfect credit. Nobody in America has perfect credit. They wanted $20 for each application fee. It was the worst week of my life ... until the shooting. I was so depressed. I felt like I was the worst mother in America then. Because I just didn't understand, where am I going to take my children? How can I be a mother and have no place for my children?

?I went back to work on Monday. I called my sister and asked her to care for my daughter since she didn't have to be at school until 11 a.m. I took my boys to my brother's house. They could walk to school from there. I didn't want to take the children out of their schools and, besides, I had no address to give the school. I didn't want to have the kids here, there and everywhere. For me it was different, but I didn't want to do that to my three children. I wanted them to have a steady environment and not to be juggled around. What should I have done? Left them on a doorstep with a note saying?I'll be back to get them when I find a place to stay? In the meantime, please feed them, take them to school .?

The family was evicted on February 21, one day before Tamarla Owens' twenty-ninth birthday. She was unaware that state might have covered her rent. ?I did not call my case worker to tell her I was being evicted, because I did not know how she would accept that. I didn't know anything about what I could claim from welfare. I had not heard that they have this safety net that would have paid.?


I wonder why your linked site would link for support to a page which contradicts its assertion. Just because income > rent does not mean you can make the payment every month. Rent was not $300/month; it says the rent was no longer vendored, and it was likely much higher (use your imagination for a 3 bedroom house); plus she no longer received food stamps. Conceivably without assistance you can't support a family on $13K
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
I imagine I will be lambasted for pointing it out, but this is a stunningly pointless debate. I am no fan of Michael Moore, but apparently his fellow members of the Academy felt he deserved to win, whether or not his film met the rulebook definition of a "documentary."
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
Originally posted by: Don_Vito
I imagine I will be lambasted for pointing it out, but this is a stunningly pointless debate. I am no fan of Michael Moore, but apparently his fellow members of the Academy felt he deserved to win, whether or not his film met the rulebook definition of a "documentary."

When you are right, you are right
 
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