[MMO] Rift - Discussion

[Xed]

Um... hello?



And yes, all sabo's do in pvp is spam blast charge and throw down glue bombs. I say mostly unnerfed because they're getting their range back, and they're STILL looking at tweaking charge booster. To be honest, a 40% damage reduction for sabo's would bring them in line with other classes, which they NEED.

Great, still get to deal with huge-ass crits.

A "hit" on overall dps is not a 40% reduction. That is a castration. Sabs were already outclassed in damage by many other builds. The issue with sabs is the fact bugged abilities let sabs do too much burst in pvp. Hence, those "huge ass crits" were also fixed. If you really think that this is warranted then I'll just drop it since we'll argue back and forth for eternity.

I simply do not want to play a bard and every other rogue soul is sub par atm (with end game content). I originally wanted to be a marksman but they are likely the weakest soul in rift atm thanks to all the nerfs right before launch :/

 

[Throckmorton]

I knew the class system was going to be a disaster. How can you balance classes when you let players mix and match?

 

[smackababy]

A "hit" on overall dps is not a 40% reduction. That is a castration. Sabs were already outclassed in damage by many other builds. The issue with sabs is the fact bugged abilities let sabs do too much burst in pvp. Hence, those "huge ass crits" were also fixed. If you really think that this is warranted then I'll just drop it since we'll argue back and forth for eternity.

I simply do not want to play a bard and every other rogue soul is sub par atm (with end game content). I originally wanted to be a marksman but they are likely the weakest soul in rift atm thanks to all the nerfs right before launch :/

Sabs needed a pvp nerf. You can't argue that. I main a warrior so I am already OP, but getting killed in 2 seconds from some scrub sab? Yeah, that isn't broken...

As far as end game DPS, I have no idea about that yet. When the patch goes live we'll see how it is in practice after a few weeks.

 

[Xed]

Sabs needed a pvp nerf. You can't argue that.
As far as end game DPS, I have no idea about that yet. When the patch goes live we'll see how it is in practice after a few weeks.

They did and the bugs that caused the ridiculous burst were fixed. Some warrior builds/pyros can do the same burst as sabs if not more, but since I don't play them I can't really comment objectively. And again, I am talking about end game here.

You can see how it is in practice right now on the test server =P Obviously if they change things my opinion will shift but right now rogues (not just sabs) need some love.

 

[erikistired]

I knew the class system was going to be a disaster. How can you balance classes when you let players mix and match?

it actually works really well. they are fixing the obvious problems, through testing, not the wow method of drastic nerfs and buffs, and things will even out. besides, even the "OP" classes can be taken down.

also, they added an authenticator today. it's an android app at the moment, not sure if they are releasing a stand alone, although i'm sure an ios app will follow.

 

[Veliko]

The shards are currently locked whilst they apply the patch.

 

[The Sauce]

If I were making an MMO I would have a no-nerf policy. Why dont they just buff others to get balance? Nerfing usually requires a whole refit for a character or, at worst, a kill-off and restart, whereas buffs can usually be incoroprated into most builds more easily. Keeping up with all the nerfs and refits is what has winds up driving me, and most casual gamers, out of MMOs. It is like a full time job dealing with all those changes and adjusting. Of course if you are putting 80 hours a week into the game it's probably not a problem.

 

[LucJoe]

If I were making an MMO I would have a no-nerf policy. Why dont they just buff others to get balance? Nerfing usually requires a whole refit for a character or, at worst, a kill-off and restart, whereas buffs can usually be incoroprated into most builds more easily. Keeping up with all the nerfs and refits is what has winds up driving me, and most casual gamers, out of MMOs. It is like a full time job dealing with all those changes and adjusting. Of course if you are putting 80 hours a week into the game it's probably not a problem.

I've heard this argument so many times but it makes no sense to me.

If one particular class is performing 10% above the baseline, why would it be a better solution to tweak ALL other classes up 10%? It's not and it would require re-tuning all instances/raids to be in line with this new "baseline" dps.

It doesn't take a complete refit to tone down dps a bit on a single over-performing class.

 

[Chiropteran]

If I were making an MMO I would have a no-nerf policy. Why dont they just buff others to get balance? Nerfing usually requires a whole refit for a character or, at worst, a kill-off and restart, whereas buffs can usually be incoroprated into most builds more easily. Keeping up with all the nerfs and refits is what has winds up driving me, and most casual gamers, out of MMOs. It is like a full time job dealing with all those changes and adjusting. Of course if you are putting 80 hours a week into the game it's probably not a problem.

Because as you buff everything up, the PvE content becomes obsolete or trivial. Than you buff up the PvE stuff, and it feels like a nerf to everyone, plus it's a ton of work go through and adjust every mob in the game because players now deal 50% more damage than originally intended, for example.

 

[Chiropteran]

I knew the class system was going to be a disaster. How can you balance classes when you let players mix and match?

It's not really that hard. You just have to make sure the best 3 soul combo for each base class is at least comparable to the best 3 soul combo for each other base class. The other inferior combinations don't need to be balanced.

 

[smackababy]

They did and the bugs that caused the ridiculous burst were fixed. Some warrior builds/pyros can do the same burst as sabs if not more, but since I don't play them I can't really comment objectively. And again, I am talking about end game here.

You can see how it is in practice right now on the test server =P Obviously if they change things my opinion will shift but right now rogues (not just sabs) need some love.

What is on the test server may not actually be what is on the live server. After this patch do some end game on a sab and see where they stand.

Also, are there any dedicated patch days, or just whenever one is ready?

And is there any mods that function like Recount and Bagnon? Are mods even available for this game? If so, someone please port DBM over. I am tired of horrible people.

 

[SunnyD]

And is there any mods that function like Recount and Bagnon? Are mods even available for this game? If so, someone please port DBM over. I am tired of horrible people.

No, no add-ons. Ever.

Thank god.

 

[Veliko]

Add-ons are needed in a game like this, especially when the UI simply isn't sufficient.

 

[SunnyD]

Add-ons are needed in a game like this, especially when the UI simply isn't sufficient.

I haven't seen the need for any add-ons. Other than idiots whining "Where's my DPS meter!?!", the game plays just fine without cheats hacks add-ons.

 

[Veliko]

I haven't seen the need for any add-ons. Other than idiots whining "Where's my DPS meter!?!", the game plays just fine without cheats hacks add-ons.

DPS, threat and healing are critical aspects of these games. Not having any way of measuring them is just absurd.

 

[coloumb]

If I were making an MMO I would have a no-nerf policy. Why dont they just buff others to get balance? Nerfing usually requires a whole refit for a character or, at worst, a kill-off and restart, whereas buffs can usually be incoroprated into most builds more easily. Keeping up with all the nerfs and refits is what has winds up driving me, and most casual gamers, out of MMOs. It is like a full time job dealing with all those changes and adjusting. Of course if you are putting 80 hours a week into the game it's probably not a problem.

PVP is usually why nerfs/buffs happen. Balancing the system will NEVER happen as long as the PVP component is allowed to coexist beside the PVE component.

I just don't understand why MMO's can't separate PVP from PVE:

PVP system - just choose from a template [similar to Battlefield FPS games] and go kill all you want in an area completely and 100% separated from the PVE content of the game.

 

[SunnyD]

DPS, threat and healing are critical aspects of these games. Not having any way of measuring them is just absurd.

If you're worried about numbers you should be playing excel.

 

[Veliko]

If you're worried about numbers you should be playing excel.

If you aren't worried about numbers you shouldn't be playing a game that depends on them so heavily.

 

[Malladine]

If you aren't worried about numbers you shouldn't be playing a game that depends on them so heavily.

Just because it's on a PC doesn't mean the end user needs to want to swim in numbers.

There are others ways of "measuring" dps threat and heals. IE did you beat the encounter? if not, what was observed that could be improved...basic stuff. Really don't need to involve meters. IMO it pollutes the whole scene.

 

[smackababy]

I haven't seen the need for any add-ons. Other than idiots whining "Where's my DPS meter!?!", the game plays just fine without cheats hacks add-ons.

Have you played WoW without DBM? Yeah most people couldn't handle the fights. Shit AVR pretty much raiding for you and people still had trouble in ICC. Same with this game. "Hey get this debuff run out of the group." Sounds really easy because it is. Well, I still wipe on the first boss in RD because some moron won't notice he has it and sits in the group killing everyone.

DPS and threat meters are good for meta gaming. Especially earlier on in the games life cycle. Knowing what gives the best damage output is crucial to being good at end game. You can't just face roll and pretend you're going to be a top guild.

Just because it's on a PC doesn't mean the end user needs to want to swim in numbers.

There are others ways of "measuring" dps threat and heals. IE did you beat the encounter? if not, what was observed that could be improved...basic stuff. Really don't need to involve meters. IMO it pollutes the whole scene.

You're right, there is no NEED for meters. But if I want to do the most DPS I can possibly squeeze out, having a real number to go against helps a lot. Why does having a DPS meter hurt the casuals (who, let's face it, aren't going to go nearly as in depth as "hardcore" players)? It doesn't. It just offers a tool for people who want to use it. I'd love to know that my rotation is optimal, not just guess that I am a beast because I downed a boss.

 

[blurredvision]

If you aren't worried about numbers you shouldn't be playing a game that depends on them so heavily.

Agreed. Playing an MMO like Rift or WoW is like playing excel. The game revolves around numbers and yet they give you no way to gauge your (or others) performance.

 

[blurredvision]

Just because it's on a PC doesn't mean the end user needs to want to swim in numbers.

There are others ways of "measuring" dps threat and heals. IE did you beat the encounter? if not, what was observed that could be improved...basic stuff. Really don't need to involve meters. IMO it pollutes the whole scene.

So what if everyone is getting out of the bad spots on the floor and appear to be doing everything right? What is your troubleshooting steps then, keep wiping to the boss and wondering why raid awareness isn't getting you past it?

It's my opinion that if you think a game like this doesn't need damage meters, then you either don't run any dungeons or raids, or you're running with such an elite group that your numbers don't matter.

 

[Throckmorton]

In real life you don't get a DPS meter

 

[Throckmorton]

It's not really that hard. You just have to make sure the best 3 soul combo for each base class is at least comparable to the best 3 soul combo for each other base class. The other inferior combinations don't need to be balanced.

But that's my complaint about these kinds of "flexible" class systems. If the best combos for each class type are balanced, and everything else sucks, you end up with only 4 classes.

It's like how Asheron's Call let you pick your own skills, but the result was that there were two classes-- melee and mage.

 

[Veliko]

Just because it's on a PC doesn't mean the end user needs to want to swim in numbers.

There are others ways of "measuring" dps threat and heals. IE did you beat the encounter? if not, what was observed that could be improved...basic stuff. Really don't need to involve meters. IMO it pollutes the whole scene.

It is impossible to keep track of threat without a threat meter.

When it comes to playing as a DPS character 70%+ of my job is doing as much damage as possible. Without being able to see how much damage I and all the other DPS players are doing it is impossible to see who is doing their job and who isn't.

What 'basic stuff' can I observe to see where a DPS problem lies in a raid?