[MMO] Rift - Discussion

[Malladine]

It is impossible to keep track of threat without a threat meter.

When it comes to playing as a DPS character 70%+ of my job is doing as much damage as possible. Without being able to see how much damage I and all the other DPS players are doing it is impossible to see who is doing their job and who isn't.

What 'basic stuff' can I observe to see where a DPS problem lies in a raid?

If the tank keeps aggro, he has enough threat. If the dps pull aggro they need to hold back a second. What is impossible here?? More difficult maybe, but imo there's the issue with meters. When meters become "critical" the gameplay is altered to accomdate it and ends up a dumbed down experience in a way.

Shifting players' focus from the action, story and their fellow players to their buttons and the meter. No longer is Bob a Warrior Champion, he is player x, 4th place DPS. No wonder the community suffers when meters become prevelant.

 

[Veliko]

You're missing the point. Once they become prevalent, the "hardcore" faction of elitist players like yourself will start to segregate the community between the haves (dps meter) and have-nots, as already mentioned. It will ruin the community experience and cause those of you that would normally group with anyone to only group with those that present their "tuned" DPS resume, which is what I already pointed out several posts back. It will fracture the community and make the game that much less enjoyable because then it simply becomes a raid gear grind for those of you that think that there's an end game and that's what it's about. If my experience in WoW taught me anything, once this happens it makes the server community suck because then the average player has to deal with the whole DPS meter shit and min/max myself to death just to get a group. The server community is just that... a community, not a DPS club.

I am not missing the point at all - you are just making an erroneous point and that you think that someone who uses a DPS meter is part of a hardcore elite compounds the fact.

You yourself have already said that you judge players on their skill rather than their DPS so the segregation that you claim to hate so much is something you already practice anyway.

The game is already a raid gear grind for those that are looking to progress in the raids simply because the game is so dependent on gear in the first place. So given that the bosses are designed around having a certain level of gear as a minimum, a certain skill-level minimum and a DPS minimum it is entirely illogical to not have a way of measuring those aspects when doing boss fights.

 

[Veliko]

If the tank keeps aggro, he has enough threat. If the dps pull aggro they need to hold back a second. What is impossible here?? More difficult maybe, but imo there's the issue with meters. When meters become "critical" the gameplay is altered to accomdate it and ends up a dumbed down experience in a way.

If the DPS manages to pull the mob off the tank is it because they are producing too much aggro or because the tank isn't producing enough aggro? If every DPS player has to constantly hold back their DPS because the tank isn't up to the job the fight becomes almost impossible.

Shifting players' focus from the action, story and their fellow players to their buttons and the meter. No longer is Bob a Warrior Champion, he is player x, 4th place DPS. No wonder the community suffers when meters become prevelant.

During a boss fight what story are the meters pulling you away from? This point is absurd because the community does not suffer because of meters.

 

[SunnyD]

By the way, your argument is moot as theres several dps parsers already available.

 

[Veliko]

By the way, your argument is moot as theres several dps parsers already available.

It isn't moot for two reasons:

- Add-ons go beyond the realm of DPS meters.
- The main argument was about whether add-ons should exist at all.

 

[KMFJD]

Anyhow....noticed they really nerfed bards healing at lower levels, but my full spec lvl 30 bard still heals ok

 

[pontifex]

Anyhow....noticed they really nerfed bards healing at lower levels, but my full spec lvl 30 bard still heals ok

motif of tenacity is either not working or so useless you might as well not even use it, at least in solo play.

it might be good for raids and such, but then why switch it to such a low tier?

 

[CVSiN]

Anyhow....noticed they really nerfed bards healing at lower levels, but my full spec lvl 30 bard still heals ok

yeh beyond nerfed.. makes bard barely worth it.
dumb move.. oh well..

back to pure DPS setup then.

 

[pontifex]

yeh beyond nerfed.. makes bard barely worth it.
dumb move.. oh well..

back to pure DPS setup then.

so far i only use bard with my ranger. i have a bard role in case it's needed for instances but haven't used it yet.

so that is what my next comments are base don.

i wouldn't say beyond nerfed or hardly worth it. the only huge change was moving motif of regen around with motif of tenacity.

everything else was a nerf to the amount of people you can heal.

hardly makes the soul unusable imo.

 

[Throckmorton]

yeh beyond nerfed.. makes bard barely worth it.
dumb move.. oh well..

back to pure DPS setup then.

I didn't even notice the skill that got nerfed so I've been playing my bard without it. The Cadence heal often makes the difference between life and death. What other rogue soul can self heal??

I'm blade dancer and bard with ranger for the pet and 5% crit. For tough enemies I do cadence x2, then the skill that uses the combo points, then repeat.

 

[dougp]

I didn't even notice the skill that got nerfed so I've been playing my bard without it. The Cadence heal often makes the difference between life and death. What other rogue soul can self heal??

I'm blade dancer and bard with ranger for the pet and 5% crit. For tough enemies I do cadence x2, then the skill that uses the combo points, then repeat.

Riftstalker heals on death of enemy.

 

[pontifex]

Riftstalker heals on death of enemy.

only if there are combo points left...

 

[akugami]

You're missing the point. Once they become prevalent, the "hardcore" faction of elitist players like yourself will start to segregate the community between the haves (dps meter) and have-nots, as already mentioned. It will ruin the community experience and cause those of you that would normally group with anyone to only group with those that present their "tuned" DPS resume, which is what I already pointed out several posts back. It will fracture the community and make the game that much less enjoyable because then it simply becomes a raid gear grind for those of you that think that there's an end game and that's what it's about. If my experience in WoW taught me anything, once this happens it makes the server community suck because then the average player has to deal with the whole DPS meter shit and min/max myself to death just to get a group. The server community is just that... a community, not a DPS club.

I think this, more than anything else, sums up why the DPS meter in WoW was such a bad idea.

What is it with the false dichotomies here? I also play to have to fun.

I really didn't expect to hear the term "dichotomies" in a game discussion. Nevertheless, I think that's a sign of where we differ. I feel that players like you, no disrespect intended, over-analyze things. I don't need to know that I'm only doing 1536 DPS when I could be doing 1567 DPS if I changed how I mash buttons slightly. If your idea of fun is maximizing your DPS and analyzing the crap out of what weapons and combinations of spells will raise your damage percentage by another 0.1% that's fine with me. It's your time. If you enjoy it, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not my idea of fun to over-analyze a game. But too many players/guilds care more about the gear you have and not the players skill.

I know how some people in WoW bragged about how much their character rocks and how skilled they are. The truth is, their gameplay "skills" are entirely dependent on their gear. WoW is essentially a gear grind. You're a "good" player if you have the gear. You're not a good player if you don't. Player skill has nearly zero to do with the whole equation.

My idea of fun is being challenged and utilizing your skill/spell set to do something that is difficult. Take the Spectre Isle in Oasis zone of Everquest. One of the signs of a good enchanter was being able to solo that whole island using charm while you were in your later 20's or early 30's. Gear would help slightly but skill was much more important. That to me is more fun. I find that challenging. The gear grind that is WoW is not fun. That guy across form me in full raid/pvp gear may be better because of his gear but not necessarily better because of skill.

No, people like you putting 2 and 2 together to make 5 is what was wrong with WoW.

Ok. But you didn't address my point. So do or don't you disagree that WoW is too much of a gear based game where player skill is marginalized? I still say that too many people/guilds in WoW care about your gear more than your actual player skills.

So you are comparing a game like WoW and Rift where gear is very important to a game like EQ where gear isn't so important, and then complaining when people want you to have the gear?

A skilled person with great gear will be better than a skilled person with rubbish gear. Again, why the false dichotomy?

I don't disagree that Rift is more gear based than EQ (which is the game I have the most extensive experience with). My complaint wasn't about gear. Everyone wants better gear. Even in EQ. That is not the argument I'm making and if you got that impression, then it's wrong. My argument is that DPS meters and heal meters are a symptom of the new class of MMO's where it's dumbed down and how "good" of a player you are is more dependent on gear than any actual player skill. So much that there is genuine bias against good players who are starting out simply because of their gear.

Don't be so utterly ridiculous. Players in guilds in WoW were also judged by their skill and overall performance for raiding.

Please. You're first and foremost judged on your gear in WoW. I'm sure that unless you were a horrible player all you needed was your gear.



I really don't want to continue the argument on DPS meters. I think I've stated my opinions and don't want to go into further multi-paragraph responses or point by point responses.

 

[smackababy]

Please. You're first and foremost judged on your gear in WoW. I'm sure that unless you were a horrible player all you needed was your gear.

This statement I quoted is proof you have no idea what you're talking about. WotLK was giving out gear for next to nothing and maybe 10% of guilds WORLD WIDE cleared Heroic Lich King with a 30% damage / health buff. There is no correlation between gear and skill in WoW. There hasn't been since BC.

And every argument I've heard so far against add-ons is "I don't like that option and the players who do, therefore nobody can have them." You don't have to use them or play with people who act like elitist douches that do. You don't like people who use the numbers of a game based almost 100% around them? Who cares?

 

[blurredvision]

I don't need to know that I'm only doing 1536 DPS when I could be doing 1567 DPS if I changed how I mash buttons slightly. If your idea of fun is maximizing your DPS and analyzing the crap out of what weapons and combinations of spells will raise your damage percentage by another 0.1% that's fine with me.

After reading this part of your post, I think I know where we differ now. You have this idea that those of us who like dps meters are OCD about our numbers. I don't think that's it at all. We like meters because it lets us know how well we are doing as well as everyone in our group. This isn't about trying to squeeze out 30 more dps, it's about making sure we're not way of the mark. If you're off 2%, big whoop. But if you're off 15% from what another person is doing with a similar build, that's where the meters come in handy. And when you start trying to figure out why you can't get past a 5-man and see somebody who is doing 50% less dps than everyone else, that's also where meters come in handy.

Oh well, I'm with you, the argument is getting a bit tired by now.

 

[SunnyD]

After reading this part of your post, I think I know where we differ now. You have this idea that those of us who like dps meters are OCD about our numbers. I don't think that's it at all. We like meters because it lets us know how well we are doing as well as everyone in our group. This isn't about trying to squeeze out 30 more dps, it's about making sure we're not way of the mark. If you're off 2%, big whoop. But if you're off 15% from what another person is doing with a similar build, that's where the meters come in handy. And when you start trying to figure out why you can't get past a 5-man and see somebody who is doing 50% less dps than everyone else, that's also where meters come in handy.

Oh well, I'm with you, the argument is getting a bit tired by now.

Jusr wanted to reply to this one before I laugh the rest of it off. What if i'm the one in your group off by that 15%? Are you going to drop me from your group at the earliest opportunity? People like Veliko would be outright lying if they didn't say yes. Those asshats are the reason I don't want to see shit like that in the game.

 

[JoshGuru7]

I strongly dislike metering. It's personal preference, but every game I have played with metering has been less fun (for me) based on it's inclusion. The quick reason is that people rely on it far too much, when there is far more at play in any run then numbers. If you know the classes well you don't need metering to be able to tell why your group is having difficulty on any particular boss.

I've seen DPS classes move too slowly to avoid damage because they wanted to get more hits in, hybrid classes output less healing (or damage) than they would otherwise because they are chasing one number, and specs that deliberately target the measurable numbers at the expense of total effectiveness and utility. I've seen plenty of people burn emergency cooldowns as part of their normal rotation just to get their numbers up.

For example, Sentinel has a very useful skill that mitigates damage on raid members for 6 seconds after an AOE heal. It's also a total waste of points if you're chasing healing numbers since neither of the add-ons that guild members have currently played with accounts for it. I can tell you right now that the highest possible healing metering in a t1 or t2 run consists of pushing about 3 buttons (puri surging off tank w/ sent emp breath splashes every 8s). Is it the most effective? Rarely, as the 51 puri heal will lower your HPS compared to emp breath, but is worth it's weight in gold for emergency burst healing as a MH. It's certainly not the most beneficial for the team when you run stuff that requires more flexibility (like orb heals out of LOS on IT-expert boss 3).

Right now one of the main annoyances for me is the WF score breakdowns. If you know your class it's very easy to get big numbers with either healing or damage, but it's also usually not the most useful thing you can be doing for your team. Doing half as much damage to the right targets makes a much bigger difference to a raid then tyranny spam that is easily outhealed.

 

[Throckmorton]

Riftstalker heals on death of enemy.

I guess that's good for reducing downtime. I love being able to outlast a tough enemy thanks to Cadence.

There's also a Blade Dancer talent that increases the damage of combo point generating skills after you use the combo attack.... great 30% boost to Cadence.

 

[J-Money]

Back in the great years of Everquest we never had threat meters and dps meters and hell for a while we never saw how much damage we were hitting for at all yet we managed to beat raid content and figure out what the problems were when we failed.

DPS and threat meters are for those who started MMOs at WoW and never learned how to go manage agro and do dps without. They force min/maxing vs. fun. Instead of someone having fun and maybe doing a few less percent dps than another build they are ridiculed by those metering it saying they have to respec and "l2play".

They also make the community shit. Instead of a raid failing and then discussing strategy and actually communicating about what happened, they go to the meters and say "Ok xxx and xxx sucked ass do better" or straight kick them out.

I hope addons never get added.

EDIT: and by addons, I mean ones like ReCount and Omen, things that make the game too easy and makes people judgemental. UI appearance etc. is fine by me.

 

[Veliko]

Jusr wanted to reply to this one before I laugh the rest of it off. What if i'm the one in your group off by that 15%? Are you going to drop me from your group at the earliest opportunity? People like Veliko would be outright lying if they didn't say yes. Those asshats are the reason I don't want to see shit like that in the game.

Again with the hypocrisy, ignorance and abuse.

If you were on my guild raid team, were consistently 15% behind everyone else and that held us back then yes you would be the one who is most likely to be replaced. Tell me why I shouldn't take someone else who can play better?

 

[Veliko]

Back in the great years of Everquest we never had threat meters and dps meters and hell for a while we never saw how much damage we were hitting for at all yet we managed to beat raid content and figure out what the problems were when we failed.

So what? Back in the great years of MUDs we never had graphics either.

They force min/maxing vs. fun.

Ah, here we have that false dichotomy cropping up again. This is complete nonsense.

Instead of someone having fun and maybe doing a few less percent dps than another build they are ridiculed by those metering it saying they have to respec and "l2play".

They also make the community shit. Instead of a raid failing and then discussing strategy and actually communicating about what happened, they go to the meters and say "Ok xxx and xxx sucked ass do better" or straight kick them out.

False dichotomies and strawman arguments again. I am detecting a pattern here amongst the anti add-on crowd.

 

[Veliko]

I really didn't expect to hear the term "dichotomies" in a game discussion. Nevertheless, I think that's a sign of where we differ. I feel that players like you, no disrespect intended, over-analyze things. I don't need to know that I'm only doing 1536 DPS when I could be doing 1567 DPS if I changed how I mash buttons slightly. If your idea of fun is maximizing your DPS and analyzing the crap out of what weapons and combinations of spells will raise your damage percentage by another 0.1% that's fine with me. It's your time. If you enjoy it, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not my idea of fun to over-analyze a game. But too many players/guilds care more about the gear you have and not the players skill.

You have no idea at all what kind of player I am and you manage to contradict yourself here anyway. If someone manages to do more damage by changing the order they use their abilities then that makes them more skilled.

I know how some people in WoW bragged about how much their character rocks and how skilled they are. The truth is, their gameplay "skills" are entirely dependent on their gear. WoW is essentially a gear grind. You're a "good" player if you have the gear. You're not a good player if you don't. Player skill has nearly zero to do with the whole equation.

You are talking complete and utter rubbish here. If you put me and someone from a top-end guild in the same gear in the same raid that other person would outperform me by a huge margin.

My idea of fun is being challenged and utilizing your skill/spell set to do something that is difficult. Take the Spectre Isle in Oasis zone of Everquest. One of the signs of a good enchanter was being able to solo that whole island using charm while you were in your later 20's or early 30's. Gear would help slightly but skill was much more important. That to me is more fun. I find that challenging. The gear grind that is WoW is not fun. That guy across form me in full raid/pvp gear may be better because of his gear but not necessarily better because of skill.

Or maybe he is actually better than you because of skill. Until you raid or fight against him you won't know yet that doesn't seem to stop you sitting there demonising them in the meantime.

Ok. But you didn't address my point. So do or don't you disagree that WoW is too much of a gear based game where player skill is marginalized? I still say that too many people/guilds in WoW care about your gear more than your actual player skills.

It's gear-dependent yes but skill is far from marginalised and what you say about being judged on gear more than skill is complete nonsense.

I don't disagree that Rift is more gear based than EQ (which is the game I have the most extensive experience with). My complaint wasn't about gear. Everyone wants better gear. Even in EQ. That is not the argument I'm making and if you got that impression, then it's wrong. My argument is that DPS meters and heal meters are a symptom of the new class of MMO's where it's dumbed down and how "good" of a player you are is more dependent on gear than any actual player skill. So much that there is genuine bias against good players who are starting out simply because of their gear.

Ah, the good old mythical 'new player who has no gear but could solo all content with ease'. That's right up there with 'homeless man who is a genius but can't get a job because he doesn't own a tie'.

Please. You're first and foremost judged on your gear in WoW. I'm sure that unless you were a horrible player all you needed was your gear.

You know just because you keep repeating this lie doesn't make it any more true.

 

[blurredvision]

Jusr wanted to reply to this one before I laugh the rest of it off. What if i'm the one in your group off by that 15%? Are you going to drop me from your group at the earliest opportunity? People like Veliko would be outright lying if they didn't say yes. Those asshats are the reason I don't want to see shit like that in the game.

Me personally, I wouldn't kick you unless we were hitting an enrage timer on a dps-check boss or something similar and we needed more dps that the lowest person on the meters could provide.. 15% was just an example though, everybody will have different opinions on what they would find acceptable. Now if you were 50% below everybody else in my raid group and weren't pulling your weight, then yes, I'd seek a replacement.

 

[SunnyD]

Ah, here we have that false dichotomy cropping up again. This is complete nonsense.

Speaking of false dichotomies and hypocrisies...

Again with the hypocrisy, ignorance and abuse.

If you were on my guild raid team, were consistently 15% behind everyone else and that held us back then yes you would be the one who is most likely to be replaced. Tell me why I shouldn't take someone else who can play better?

So on one hand you're essentially saying forcing DPS meters wouldn't change a thing, then you admit you'd happily kick people not up to your standards? What's it gonna be? You're going a long way to proving my point - DPS meters and other raid add-ons do nothing by fragment the community.

Me personally, I wouldn't kick you unless we were hitting an enrage timer on a dps-check boss or something similar and we needed more dps that the lowest person on the meters could provide.. 15% was just an example though, everybody will have different opinions on what they would find acceptable. Now if you were 50% below everybody else in my raid group and weren't pulling your weight, then yes, I'd seek a replacement.

And if it were your best friend, a casual player, who consistently is under-geared and under-DPS'ed, but enjoys hanging with you and tagging along? Where does it end?

Needless to say I'm very happy for Trion's anti-addon policy. At this point, I'm pretty happy with the game and can't find any instance where such things are even needed. If you need such a crutch, you're obviously doing it wrong. I've only been in one such group that couldn't take down the final boss of an instance. It was plainly obvious that we didn't have enough DPS to do it (well, it's possible we could have but it would have taken an inordinate amount of time and the primary healer (me) would have had to go through their mana bar about 6 fold in order to survive the fight). After giving it our best, we parted ways and moved on. There were no hard feelings or finger pointing. We tried. We failed. Now we know next time to bring more dps. We didn't need a meter to figure that out.

 

[Veliko]

So on one hand you're essentially saying forcing DPS meters wouldn't change a thing, then you admit you'd happily kick people not up to your standards? What's it gonna be? You're going a long way to proving my point - DPS meters and other raid add-ons do nothing by fragment the community.

They don't change anything because players who aren't up to scratch are already being kicked. A DPS meter just allows you to see more detail. How is kicking someone because they can't do enough damage worse than kicking someone because they can't move from the fire?

And if it were your best friend, a casual player, who consistently is under-geared and under-DPS'ed, but enjoys hanging with you and tagging along? Where does it end?

What do you mean "where does it end?". Keeping one player happy whilst upsetting everyone else is a bad idea. Nepotism isn't a good thing - why should I keep that under performing player if there is someone else in the guild who is better?

Needless to say I'm very happy for Trion's anti-addon policy. At this point, I'm pretty happy with the game and can't find any instance where such things are even needed. If you need such a crutch, you're obviously doing it wrong. I've only been in one such group that couldn't take down the final boss of an instance. It was plainly obvious that we didn't have enough DPS to do it (well, it's possible we could have but it would have taken an inordinate amount of time and the primary healer (me) would have had to go through their mana bar about 6 fold in order to survive the fight). After giving it our best, we parted ways and moved on. There were no hard feelings or finger pointing. We tried. We failed. Now we know next time to bring more dps. We didn't need a meter to figure that out.

How can you 'bring more DPS' if you don't know how much DPS everyone was doing in the first place?