[MMO] Rift - Discussion

[cblais19]

Well, this is the way I look at it.

A straight warrior bred class (Champion, whatever sub spec you want to pick) to me is somebody akin to Sparticus (from the Showtime series of the same name). These guys practice with sword and shield day in and day out sunrise to sunset perfecting their craft. And once they become proficient, they are masters of the arena. Or in this case, the battlefield.

They know the intracies of wearing plate. How to time their sword swings, how to take a shot to the body and absorb it, how to swing through the pain. How to identify a opponents weaknesses, etc. Its what they DO.

Like Tiger Woods (as mentioned earlier). He has spent countless hours day in and day out swinging a golf club. He knows how to do it. Its what he DOES. Now, just because he decides one day 'Hey, I'm going to be a tennis player' doesn't mean he can just read a book, take a couple of lessons, and go out and become the next Pete Sampras.

As for your cleric tanking? Why shouldn't they be able to tank? Well, all those spells they cast has to take some time to learn. How to channel that energy. Those spells should come from some devotion to a God or some such thing, so considerable time reflecting/praying is involved w/ a Priest class. So where do they fit in the endless hours of practice that the Warrior endures to be good at his class?

Sure a cleric can wear chain. That's so he can survive a couple of beats before folding, not to stand on the front line as the meat shield.

Oh, and I have a low level warrior here w/ some sort of spell to pull mobs to me. Same argument but reverse. Warriors don't cast damnit ....

Perhaps instead of insisting that a developer creating their archetypes to fit your conceptions, you modify your conceptions to fit the world they designed? Honestly, they sould have just called the various archetypes "Cloth" "Chain" "Plate" "Leather", since the most distinguishing factor between the classes is the armor they wear. But that would have confused people, so they went with a traditional naming convention.

Also, the requirement that Clerics wear chain, warriors wear plate, mages wear cloth, ect ect is a DnD based item for convenience. Did you ever play any of the Elder Scrolls games? Those'll really mess with you, mages wearing full plate, with a shield and tossing fireballs.

Edit: To note something yourself or Throck said earlier, the game convention allowing this fast swapping is that each Ascended essentially builds up a stable of souls, which allows you to utilize the experience these people built up over a lifetime of their chosen path, but then combine them due to your Vigil/Essence given abilities. Make perfect sense.

 

[s1njin]

Perhaps instead of insisting that a developer creating their archetypes to fit your conceptions, you modify your conceptions to fit the world they designed? Honestly, they sould have just called the various archetypes "Cloth" "Chain" "Plate" "Leather", since the most distinguishing factor between the classes is the armor they wear. But that would have confused people, so they went with a traditional naming convention.

Also, the requirement that Clerics wear chain, warriors wear plate, mages wear cloth, ect ect is a DnD based item for convenience. Did you ever play any of the Elder Scrolls games? Those'll really mess with you, mages wearing full plate, with a shield and tossing fireballs.

Edit: To note something yourself or Throck said earlier, the game convention allowing this fast swapping is that each Ascended essentially builds up a stable of souls, which allows you to utilize the experience these people built up over a lifetime of their chosen path, but then combine them due to your Vigil/Essence given abilities. Make perfect sense.

It certainly makes sense in the pretext of the story given for the game. I just maintain that if everybody can do most everything, than nobody is special. And if nobody is special, than what's the point? At least for me anyway.

I have until the middle of June until my time expires - I'm really not trying to trash the game as I have maintained before it is a beautiful game and the mechanics of playing it are solid to me. I enjoy my time when I'm logged on.

However, this one issue in particular, while it is the fulcrum of the game, really just doesn't jive w/ me. I suppose I enjoy the perks of certain classes and the hard fought victory for attaining them (for those who played EQ, remember how awesome it was to have the class that got SoW?). Or the whole "Wow, it must be cool to be xxx because they get yyy, I wish I had that". Here, you just sorta get everything to one degree or another.

I guess it boils down to the sense of achievement for me.

 

[cblais19]

Ok, I can see where you're coming from here. I think that we've seen a shift away from passively achievable milestones (eg: level 15 gets rez) towards active accomplishments (eg: defeat boss X without getting hit by ability z), as started by XBLA, then formalized in the MMO arena by WAR's Tome, and now WoW and Rift et all. Certainly provides another hook to get people to sink time in, especially for the completionist types, as well as a way to "prove" your mad skillz.

However, at least for my Cleric, there were abilities that significantly changed my play style, or at least experience. Getting 5/5 of the chance to proc an instant Bolt of Depravity was awesome, and grabbing secondaries to max my Vex self-healing, along with my 31 point tree AE allowed me to destroy large groups, which is really fun and sped up leveling post 40 alot.

Are there big signature skills like you remember from EQ? Probably not, but there are points where certain builds can allocate enough points in secondary souls where they become significantly more effective, or allow a change in play style.

 

[s1njin]

I think the WoW Druid is the closest thing to pretty much any Rift toon, however the WoW Druid has far more liabilities.

You want to tank? Change to a bear, but don't even think about casting anything or dealing out a ton of damage.

Want to do some DPS? Change into a cat but don't even think about taking a boatload of damage or casting.

Want to cast? There's a form for that, but don't get in close quarters w/ it.

The WoW Druid has definite detriments around the perk you are employing. Here in Rift I can make a non-healing DOT/nuke throwing cleric who acts like a Mage but can take some damage up close and still utilize the 3rd soul slot for a quick self heal. Its almost like, well what CAN'T he do? (I know there are plenty of things if you want to get technical but on the surface really the answer is he can do everything).

 

[cblais19]

I think the WoW Druid is the closest thing to pretty much any Rift toon, however the WoW Druid has far more liabilities.

You want to tank? Change to a bear, but don't even think about casting anything or dealing out a ton of damage.

Want to do some DPS? Change into a cat but don't even think about taking a boatload of damage or casting.

Want to cast? There's a form for that, but don't get in close quarters w/ it.

The WoW Druid has definite detriments around the perk you are employing. Here in Rift I can make a non-healing DOT/nuke throwing cleric who acts like a Mage but can take some damage up close and still utilize the 3rd soul slot for a quick self heal. Its almost like, well what CAN'T he do? (I know there are plenty of things if you want to get technical but on the surface really the answer is he can do everything).

Yeah, this is def. the closest analogue we have from other games. However, you've noted many of the limitations there, and gear was the other one. Significantly different stats for each role.

 

[lupi]

OK just started to play the game a few days ago.
The main problem is the low population on moderate populated servers.
It's pretty hard to find in normal day time people to do an instance or other things....

One thing I've learned about mmos; if interested in the group experience always go for high pop. If queue problems arrise leave it to the non-social types to jump ship and help even things out.



For the others; I'd like to start a cleric and thinking justic as his main soul but what should I pick for him as a solo leveling type.

 

[Merad]

I just maintain that if everybody can do most everything, than nobody is special. And if nobody is special, than what's the point? At least for me anyway.

How exactly do WoW or other games allow you to be special? At best someone just needs to respec or reroll and choose the same skills you did, and they're just as special as you.

Really the only game I can think of that allows you to be special is EVE, and then it's just because real time is required to gain skill, so older players who stay subbed always have some advantage over newer players.

 

[pontifex]

I don't get the big deal. I think it's awesome that other classes can take on other roles. Now I don't have to spend 4 hours trying to find a warrior to tank an instance. I can get a cleric to do it.

We had a rogue tanking an instance the other night.

I also like the ability to play a slightly different role than staying in the same old boring shit as usual or having to level up 6 different characters to be able to play all those different roles.

 

[Throckmorton]

How exactly do WoW or other games allow you to be special? At best someone just needs to respec or reroll and choose the same skills you did, and they're just as special as you.

Really the only game I can think of that allows you to be special is EVE, and then it's just because real time is required to gain skill, so older players who stay subbed always have some advantage over newer players.

It's not about being completely unique, but about every class not being the same.

I predicted this would happen when the game first came out and I was right. Everybody is basically the same. Mixing and matches sounds awesome but in reality it just makes everybody generic.


In Asheron's call there were no classes. In theory that means infinite mixing and matching of skills, woohooo!! In reality, it means there were two classes-- warriors and mages.

 

[Veliko]

It's not about being completely unique, but about every class not being the same.

I predicted this would happen when the game first came out and I was right. Everybody is basically the same. Mixing and matches sounds awesome but in reality it just makes everybody generic.


In Asheron's call there were no classes. In theory that means infinite mixing and matching of skills, woohooo!! In reality, it means there were two classes-- warriors and mages.

You aren't really making any sense here. In what way is a mage 'basically the same' as a warrior or a rogue? And other than the ability to cast spells how is a mage 'basically the same' as a cleric?

 

[Throckmorton]

You aren't really making any sense here. In what way is a mage 'basically the same' as a warrior or a rogue? And other than the ability to cast spells how is a mage 'basically the same' as a cleric?

They're the same in that they can all do all of the normal roles. None of the classes has any drawbacks. They're like Superman, the most boring and stupid superhero.

 

[Veliko]

They're the same in that they can all do all of the normal roles. None of the classes has any drawbacks. They're like Superman, the most boring and stupid superhero.

You still aren't making any sense. How is the warrior or the rogue anything like the mage?

It's like comparing an F1 game and Mario Kart and saying that they are the same thing.

 

[Throckmorton]

You still aren't making any sense. How is the warrior or the rogue anything like the mage?

It's like comparing an F1 game and Mario Kart and saying that they are the same thing.

I'm saying there's no fucking weakness to any class. They can all tank. They can all heal. They can all DPS. Everybody is generic. Everybody is the fucking same. The only differences are the slight variations in armor. If that's not enough for you, how about the fact that everyone within a "class" is basically the same, because they all have the same talent sets they can switch between? Oh, you made a novel combination of bard and blademaster? Guess what, everybody else has that set too, and they can switch to it at will.

It probably makes no sense to people who started MMOs with Fisher Price WoW, but 10 years ago MMOs had real classes and they were drastically different from each other. A wizard in Everquest was completely different from a warrior. And you couldn't hit a button and pay 5 gold to switch. You picked your class and you dealt with the consequences of your choice or you made a new character.

MMOs need to lose the easy button or they are going to fail, even WoW.

 

[Throckmorton]

Here's a post that makes sense. #48 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3459663#3459663

Did society change to one of instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence influence MMO design or did MMOs change to be instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence society followed.
I think it is quite safe to say that the society is what has changed. The entire culture of "everyone is the best" has become so prevalent that school sports days no longer use the term "winner" because it lowers the self-esteem of those children who did not come first. The most prevalent insults these days revolve around losing (loser, fail, etc) - surprising really because in my day they were pretty much all sexually explicit
Society is breeding a generation of cotton-wool wrapped babies who are sheltered from everything bad. Not only does this set them up for a pretty big fall when they actually enter the real world and find that they will actually have to compete for a job - everyone doesn't just get one automatically, but it instils them with a huge sense of entitlement and superiority.
These children, and adults as some of them moving out of their teens, are increasingly playing online games - as society moves more and more online with everything it does. MMOs have changed design to suit this ever-growing playerbase - a playerbase that demands everything NOW, that expects everything everyone else has, that feels that they are actually actively being deprived of something if they don't have it, that feels that if they cannot achieve something first time it must be broken or made too hard and must be changed.
More people play WoW than any other MMO? People keep slamming it for this fact. But it is the one MMO that has changed to reflect the society from which it draws it's players. WoW has changed drastically in it's 5 years of life and it has changed to support the growing population of gamers. Has it changed for the worse or has it simply changed to give it's playerbase what they want? After all there are still an awful lot of people still playing the game.
A question we should ask ourselves is: Should MMOs attempt to be arbiters of social change or should they simply cater to what their players want? We constantly say on these very forums that developers should listen more to what their playerbase wants.
Having said all that though, there is most definitely an audience that is totally disaffected with the current trend of pandering to those who see challenge as something inherently bad. The problem though is that this audience is badly fractured when it comes to it's goals and until this group becomes large enough to be able to sustain a AAA title being developed specifically for it then we will continue to have second-rate MMOs developed by indie studios who might have their hearts in the right place but simply don't have the funds to back their vision up

 

[Veliko]

I'm saying there's no fucking weakness to any class. They can all tank. They can all heal. They can all DPS. Everybody is generic. Everybody is the fucking same. The only differences are the slight variations in armor. If that's not enough for you, how about the fact that everyone within a "class" is basically the same, because they all have the same talent sets they can switch between? Oh, you made a novel combination of bard and blademaster? Guess what, everybody else has that set too, and they can switch to it at will.

No they are not all the same and are not generic. How many of the classes have you actually played? Mages certainly can't tank for a start and if you think that all tanks/healers/DPS are the same then you are very wrong.

It probably makes no sense to people who started MMOs with Fisher Price WoW, but 10 years ago MMOs had real classes and they were drastically different from each other. A wizard in Everquest was completely different from a warrior. And you couldn't hit a button and pay 5 gold to switch. You picked your class and you dealt with the consequences of your choice or you made a new character.

Mages and warriors in Rift and WoW are completely and utterly different from each other as well. If you only want to play Dungeons and Dragons defined roles go back to the MMOs of ten years ago.

MMOs need to lose the easy button or they are going to fail, even WoW.

The evidence suggests otherwise but there you go.

 

[Veliko]

Here's a post that makes sense. #48 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3459663#3459663

That post is an example of someone who thinks they are cleverer than they really are. It's full of strawman arguments and ridiculous comparisons.

 

[SunnyD]

I'm saying there's no fucking weakness to any class. They can all tank. They can all heal. They can all DPS. Everybody is generic. Everybody is the fucking same. The only differences are the slight variations in armor. If that's not enough for you, how about the fact that everyone within a "class" is basically the same, because they all have the same talent sets they can switch between? Oh, you made a novel combination of bard and blademaster? Guess what, everybody else has that set too, and they can switch to it at will.

It probably makes no sense to people who started MMOs with Fisher Price WoW, but 10 years ago MMOs had real classes and they were drastically different from each other. A wizard in Everquest was completely different from a warrior. And you couldn't hit a button and pay 5 gold to switch. You picked your class and you dealt with the consequences of your choice or you made a new character.

MMOs need to lose the easy button or they are going to fail, even WoW.

There's plenty of variation. You can only play one role at a time. Having the option to have multiple roles is useful, but it's definitely not an easy button. Not every combination can tank, heal and dps at the same time. It's no different than the EverCrap of old.

One of the things that I hated about the superhero MMOs (City of Heroes, Champions Online) is that they started out, and you FELT like a super hero. Easy mode, sure, but it captured the feel of being a superhero being able to take on scores of mobs at a time and walk away, even with the glass cannon classes. Then they "balanced" those games, and made it nearly impossible to solo more than one minion mob at a time. Tell me, where's the "super" in that? Sure it enhanced the "longevity" of the game, but it made the experience... generic. I wasn't looking for an easy button, I was looking for a title being true to a theme. When they took that theme away, well it was no longer a game I wanted to play.

Rift is a game with a theme. It's not easy mode by any means. You're an Ascended. You're supposed to be "better" than 90% of the trash in the world. Then the other 10% will beat the shit out of you if you're not careful. Rift has that.

 

[pontifex]

hmm....i'm thinking the people who don't like the multiple roles are the people who have no life and play MMOs 24/7 and have each class at max level and now this kind of trivializes their "achievements". No longer is the loser without a job, gf, or life the king of the MMO.

 

[Robert Munch]

hmm....i'm thinking the people who don't like the multiple roles are the people who have no life and play MMOs 24/7 and have each class at max level and now this kind of trivializes their "achievements". No longer is the loser without a job, gf, or life the king of the MMO.

Ignorant to say, I thought Rift was too boring and quest grindy for my tastes on the 2nd beta offering. Never logged on since nor had interests of buying, the multi-class offering felt too gimicky and lame. Nothing really stuck out for me kinda felt like a been there done that type of game.

 

[akugami]

I'll have to agree with Throckmorton that the classes just don't feel as unique as in previous MMO's. I'm torn because the play styles are different for the various mages. A chloromancer is not going to be remotely the same as a pyromancer or stormcaller. However, it just doesn't feel unique at times.

The problem is that the encounters are not thought out enough that you needed to actually leverage the various class abilities. I hate to keep referring back to EQ1 but think about how vastly different the classes are. Part of it is just that, the abilities are not as unique. But I think the main problem is the encounters. I'm sorry but the mob standing on the other side of the wagon should not be standing there while I unleash holy hell on his buddy. I think the lack of mobs that actually run when low on health, something almost all mobs do in EQ1 also contribute to the problem. Honestly, look at the dominator. It's rare that you even use him for crowd control.

I truly think it's the instant gratification mentality that is making MMO's stale too quickly. Personally, while I'm not a fan of senseless grinding, I wouldn't mind not hitting level 50 for half a year as long as the journey is cool. I need to feel a sense of accomplishment. As much maligned as some things are in EQ1, when you hit certain stages and your character gains certain spells or abilities, it really does feel like an accomplishment. Another aspect is once again the game world, put in encounters or quests that give you a sense of fulfillment.

 

[pontifex]

mmos are the last place you should be looking for uniqueness...everyone does the same quests, everyone has the same story, everyone of your class is striving for the same gear at end game, you'll all look the same in the same armor and weapons. the only real uniqueness you get would be from talent trees, and with Rift, you have the best chance of being unique with so many souls - but whats the point when everyone just wants to play the one role thats the "best"?

 

[Throckmorton]

hmm....i'm thinking the people who don't like the multiple roles are the people who have no life and play MMOs 24/7 and have each class at max level and now this kind of trivializes their "achievements". No longer is the loser without a job, gf, or life the king of the MMO.

I've never gotten to max level in any MMO. I have no clue about "endgame".

I want classes to have meaning starting at level 1!!

 

[Throckmorton]

mmos are the last place you should be looking for uniqueness...everyone does the same quests, everyone has the same story, everyone of your class is striving for the same gear at end game, you'll all look the same in the same armor and weapons. the only real uniqueness you get would be from talent trees, and with Rift, you have the best chance of being unique with so many souls - but whats the point when everyone just wants to play the one role thats the "best"?

Hmm, that's another problem with current MMOs. The "story" crap. The quests are set up so that they are supposed to apply only to you, "the hero", so it's like a single player game. Yet you know everyone else is doing those quests so it's completely meaningless when the NPCs shower accolades on you.

That, along with the rise of instancing, made MMOs less MMORPG and less immersive.

 

[SunnyD]

Servers just went down for a quick update. Stage 2 going up.

 

[coloumb]

A lot of people want to be the bad ass duke nukem "kick ass, take names and chew bubble gum" character types. The soul system does allow you variety - but not many people will allow that variety in a group or raid setting - the leader will want "min/max" specs to ensure success within the shortest amount of time. Why take 5 hours to clear a dungeon that could instead take 45 minutes with a min/max build?

There are a few things I don't like about MMO's:

[1] Environments are static. Why doesn't anyone ever repair the damaged buildings? or objects in the game world?
[2] Quest mobs re-appear after you've killed them. When a quest states "go kill this nasty witch who is holding a terrible grasp over our town" - she should be permanently dead. I shouldn't be able to go back and see her "spawn" again.
[3] Instances - again, the "boss" mobs inside dungeons should NOT re-appear once I've killed them.
[4] AI/aggro - in the real world, enemies just won't stand by and ignore their comrades being slaughtered. Mobs in MMO's need to have their eyes checked as a lot of them can't see more than 5 meters from their face. If you can see a mob - then it should be able to attack you [just as the enemy would attack you in PVP]. AI is terrible as well - mobs use the same set of attacks - to predictive.
[5] End game is too damn repetitive - daily quests, dungeons, crafting, etc.