MS: Kinect no longer required

[blackened23]

Now if we could just get rid of the XBL Gold paywalls, then we'd actually have a console worth buying!

XBL isn't a paywall, really. There's not much difference between PSN online and XBLG - The PS4 requires the paid version of PSN Online+ for any type of multiplayer, just as the XB1 does. This is a confirmed change with the PS4, you must pay for multiplayer. So the difference is ....... practically nothing. Maybe you can play netflix on PS4, but you cannot do any type of multiplayer on the PS4 without the paid version of PSN Online. Furthermore, I find that XBLG is pretty superior to PSN Online in its current form; Sony has made quite a few strides in the past year but overall XBLG has been the better multiplayer experience by far.

Anyway, I welcome this news. I hope they release a 350$ version of XB1 without Kinect - that would actually make it a heck of a console worth considering. Even though it has slightly less specs than the PS4, that may not matter since all multiplatform games are designed for the lesser platform anyway.

 

[blackened23]

it's basically just a bullet point that people who like to argue about why one is better than the other like to throw around. i know a bunch of people who use netflix and own a 360, and i'd say 1/2 of them use the 360 for netflix and the other half just use something else. they all have xbox live though so it isn't due to the pay wall.

many of the same people who are always whining about being behind a pay wall to watch netflix on 360 but not ps3 were also the same people whing about being behind a pay wall to play online on 360 but not ps3. now the same people suddenly have no problem with paying to play online on ps4, so they now will focus on being behind the pay wall for other apps that are free on ps4.

Pretty much. XB1 has some free apps that PSN Online doesn't, and vice versa. The difference is nothing. You must pay for multiplayer with either system, so who cares? XBLG in the states is currently far better than PSN Online for multiplayer and connectivity with friends - Sony may improve it for the PS4, we'll have to wait and see.

I was leaning towards the PS4 prior to this news, but a 350$ XB1 may be tempting.

 

[Topweasel]

This seems like a no-brainer to me. I can't think of any reason why you would require the Kinect to be connected if you could turn it off completely (i.e. not listening for "XBOX On") via the settings.

There is a difference between being able to turn it off and the fact that a game may require it's existence. Personally I don't think they should have let people turn it off. Just consider it an extension of the console itself then anything else. Hell if they just stopped referring to it as Kinect and instead calling itself the external Xbox One motion and sound sensor, it would go a long way. But that said as far as I know from the very beginning Microsoft wants the Kinect to be part of the full system infrastructure so that developers could develop all the uses they wanted to for it. As it is right now companies including MS have to be careful how games take advantage of the Kinect for fear that they alienate and ruin the game experience for users without one. I don't think MS wants that to happen with the new console.

So while I think you might be able to turn it off I don't think MS is going destroy their ecosystem for the next 7 years solely to push up the first 2 years of sales.

 

[Arkaign]

Pretty much. XB1 has some free apps that PSN Online doesn't, and vice versa. The difference is nothing. You must pay for multiplayer with either system, so who cares? XBLG in the states is currently far better than PSN Online for multiplayer and connectivity with friends - Sony may improve it for the PS4, we'll have to wait and see.

I was leaning towards the PS4 prior to this news, but a 350$ XB1 may be tempting.

That's for sure. That would be the last big key imho to Microsoft getting more than the die-hards in the door at the beginning.

We must remember that the economy in 2006 hadn't crashed, and there were dozens and dozens of MILLIONS of happy PS2 owners out there, and PS3 hype was to the moon and back. But how many people actually plunked down $600 for a launch PS3? Obviously a lot of the hardcore PS fans did, but the overall masses did NOT.

Flash now to 2013, and an economy that's overall not that great (more people on welfare/food stamps/unemployed than 2006 by a truly staggering number in the US) and I think that $499 is just too far to ride for long. Even $399 isn't cheap. If the APU design is as cheap as it should be, I can foresee $299 SKUs on the horizon fairly soonish (mid 2014?, spring even?) should the numbers line up for that. I think if overall system sales are sluggish after the launch crowd/hype dies down, and post-holiday sales are also pretty split, we'll see either Sony or Microsoft make a first move, and then a response move from the other.

It could work like this :

Sony and Microsoft sell out their limited quantity of consoles available for launch, but other sales are flat or even negative year-on-year (PS3/360/games for all consoles). $499 XB1s and $399 PS4s start to collect dust on shelves. Microsoft fires first with a $379 kinect-free XB1 and gets a sales burst. Sony returns fire with a $349 basic SKU, sales boost a bit as more titles trickle out. Fall '14 comes out, and someone fires first with the $299 console, and sales go nuts, with the other following suit within weeks.

'14 will be the real test in my mind. The core die-hard fans who don't mind risking $400-$500 on something that might be underwhelming for a while are important for both companies, but there simply aren't enough people in this economy with that attitude or spare change to make it work for very long. Too many people see game systems as cheap toys for that to be a viable price point for long.

 

[tdawg]

AFAIK, there's nothing stopping you from simply doing exactly that with DD only. Anyone with FIOS/etc that should be as smooth as can be, just queue it up, preload it, and bam ready to play, just like Steam.

So yeah, feature not lost Unless you have no internet, and in that case, LOL. Circular problem, because no internet + 24hr check in = no gaming anyway with the old way.

Microsoft killed this feature when they backed away from the always online part.

 

[Arkaign]

Microsoft killed this feature when they backed away from the always online part.

You mean you won't be able to buy new games online via XBL? Link? Here, I'll give you one from Microsoft themselves!

I don't see how that is possible. Microsoft's own literature says that you can buy digital games and play them without disc (obviously, since with digital games you won't ever HAVE a disc to begin with!)

http://news.xbox.com/2013/08/xbox-one-digital-games-and-live-gold

So yes, once again, feature NOT dead, other than for disc-only users.

"Like physical media, you can also play many digitally downloaded games without being online, although experiences will be best when connected to the internet and Xbox Live. Finally, when you purchase a digital game, you can start playing even before the entire game downloads."

 

[smackababy]

They removed some things, like the sharing and stuff. The big drawback is you have to now download the game. You can't install from the disc and save bandwidth.

 

[Arkaign]

They removed some things, like the sharing and stuff. The big drawback is you have to now download the game. You can't install from the disc and save bandwidth.

That's true, but that's not what he was saying. The false claim was made that you can't digitally download and play discless, which is obviously untrue.

I think the positives of the 180 policy changes are more valuable than the 'lost' features anyway for the company at large. The XB1 is now a complete console whether you're a digital-only user or a disc user or both (as many military service members are).

With the online-only XB1 circa E3, you had to have internet every 24 hours even to play your disc games. With the new XB1 policies, you have no such restrictions.

It's a valid point about not being able to install completely from disc, but how many people is that actually going to affect vs. the numbers affected by an 'online-only' policy? One is an inconvenience at most (to a few), the other is a flat-out lockout that would make the console useless to them. And are we so lazy now that having the disc is somehow a hassle? Are there really that many people out there that both demand full install from discs AND have crappy internet? It seems that most people with the demand of a discless system would be well served by the digital distribution system.

The alternative? Buying the game retail and playing it by inserting the disc? How horrible, how tragic, to have people walk across the room and actually open a case and press buttons and stuff. 1st world problems I guess, lol.

 

[nextJin]

Is there anything Microsoft has not changed since E3? Their entire E3 I think is now irrelevant.

 

[smackababy]

That's true, but that's not what he was saying. The false claim was made that you can't digitally download and play discless, which is obviously untrue.

I think the positives of the 180 policy changes are more valuable than the 'lost' features anyway for the company at large. The XB1 is now a complete console whether you're a digital-only user or a disc user or both (as many military service members are).

With the online-only XB1 circa E3, you had to have internet every 24 hours even to play your disc games. With the new XB1 policies, you have no such restrictions.

It's a valid point about not being able to install completely from disc, but how many people is that actually going to affect vs. the numbers affected by an 'online-only' policy? One is an inconvenience at most (to a few), the other is a flat-out lockout that would make the console useless to them. And are we so lazy now that having the disc is somehow a hassle? Are there really that many people out there that both demand full install from discs AND have crappy internet? It seems that most people with the demand of a discless system would be well served by the digital distribution system.

The alternative? Buying the game retail and playing it by inserting the disc? How horrible, how tragic, to have people walk across the room and actually open a case and press buttons and stuff. 1st world problems I guess, lol.

It is not so much about crappy internet, but bandwidth caps. In countries outside the US, it is a big deal. Australia has some wicked caps. Even in the US, my provider is testing reenabling their caps (250gb per month), and I am over it without the addition of downloading DD games. The always online was not a problem for me, and if they enabled a policy to install from disc and activate to have the DD like features and make the disc worthless, I would completely do that.

 

[SunnyD]

Yeah but here's the thing with the XB1 and PS4. NOBODY is buying them for netflix. Nobody pre-ordered it cause they could stream movies.

I think paywalling it sucks but people forking out $500 to be day one adopters already have multiple devices that can do Netflix anyhow in all likelihood.

Okay... so let's take Netflix off the paywall list. There's still:

• Game DVR
• Skype
• One Guide
• NFL on XBox
• Amazon Prime

The list goes on. Notice, I didn't even put multiplayer on that list.

 

[Arkaign]

It would be interesting if they had an opt-in for that kind of user who wants discless from discs and wants the 24hr check-in (which would be necessary obviously to prevent someone from just installing the game in full from a borrowed disc and never buying it).

On measure though I think their moves post-E3 have been the correct ones, all of them will help the XB1 to greater sales and a larger base of potential players.

The quandary they had was :

A small convenience for a select group of people (along with some devs like EA who almost certainly were messing their pants over the idea of an always-online mandatory console)

or

Complete and total lock-out for others (along with terrible press, and letting the competition scoop those players up)

I personally have 75mbit FIOS quantum with sub-3ms ping, no caps that I've yet encountered, and rock-stable bandwidth and reliability. However, just an hour away I have a great friend in an area where the only internet other than dial-up he can get is a fixed-wireless system that's 5mbit down/256k up, and when it goes down, it's down for at least a week due to waiting for someone to come down to BFE to fix the tower. I'm personally covered either way, but for someone like him and millions of others, a 24-hour check-in system is way more than an inconvenience, it's a way to lose that customer.

Besides, where are the Xbox fans going to go who want discless installs from disc? Are they going to go buy a PS4 instead? Are they going to play PC instead? No, they'll buy an XB1 because they're Xbox fans. As above, even an Xbox fan won't buy an XB1 if they can't actually play it (24hr check in for someone without stable internet).

Microsoft made the right move even if it's inconvenient for a very select few. Now they COULD offer a special mode where you opt-in for the check-in to be able to play full install games from disc without requiring the disc, but I think that there's just not enough demand for it. The vast majority of users absolutely dedicated to discless play will be well served by the digital distribution system already ready to go. As for me, I couldn't care less, I don't mind walking a few feet to drop a disc in, and I don't mind clicking download for something that interests me. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

 

[tdawg]

Ah, you're talking about digital download where I was talking about buying physical discs. Yes, digital downloads obviously don't require a disc in the drive. Originally, disc-based games wouldn't have needed it either after the first time.

 

[Mushkins]

XBL isn't a paywall, really. There's not much difference between PSN online and XBLG - The PS4 requires the paid version of PSN Online+ for any type of multiplayer, just as the XB1 does. This is a confirmed change with the PS4, you must pay for multiplayer. So the difference is ....... practically nothing. Maybe you can play netflix on PS4, but you cannot do any type of multiplayer on the PS4 without the paid version of PSN Online. Furthermore, I find that XBLG is pretty superior to PSN Online in its current form; Sony has made quite a few strides in the past year but overall XBLG has been the better multiplayer experience by far.

Anyway, I welcome this news. I hope they release a 350$ version of XB1 without Kinect - that would actually make it a heck of a console worth considering. Even though it has slightly less specs than the PS4, that may not matter since all multiplatform games are designed for the lesser platform anyway.

XBL is a paywall. It's just now PSN+ is a paywall too.

The big hangup with netflix on the 360 is that you're *already* paying for netflix service. Needing to pay on top of that for XBL to use the service you're already paying for, when literally every other netflix supporting device from your PC, to your TV itself, to the competitions console do not require this is frankly exploitative. Theres absolutely no reason for it. You want to give away games and exclusive demos and prerelease content behind that paywall? Ok, those things have value that make it more of a legitimate service. Arbitrarily locking a *WORSE* version (the 360 version of Netflix does not support 5.1 audio, the PS3 does) of a service you already pay for behind a paywall just because? No thanks.

The fact that the PS4 still lets regular unpaid PSN accounts use Netflix while the XBOne still arbitrarily puts it behind a paywall isn't the be all end all feature that is motivating choice in either direction, but it's definitely one more hash mark in the PS4 column for people comparing the two in a purchase decision. Personally, I have no interest in "free" games I had no intention of buying in the first place or console online multiplayer. I can still buy DLC and digital downloads of games without a premium account, still get achievements, still have my friends list, and with a PS4 I know I have a device for Netflix in my already crowded media center thats connected to my surround receiver. There's a lot of people in a similar situation when choosing between the two.

My PS4 was a pretty easy decision to pull the trigger on a preorder. It has all the features important to me in a console and none of the BS Microsoft tried to pull that they've since mostly reversed. Maybe i'll buy an XBOne a few years down the line when they revise the hardware, lower the price, and do a holiday bundle with some exclusive title im interested in. I just don't see any appeal to have the XBOne instead of or in addition to a PS4 at this point in time, the advertised PS4 features are either better than (no netflix paywall, more gaming oriented, better hardware) or equal to (pay for multiplayer, most games I care about are multiplatform so far) the XBOne, and the XBOne exclusive features like hooking it up to my cable box to watch football are... not what i'd buy a $400 console for.

 

[purbeast0]

Microsoft made the right move even if it's inconvenient for a very select few. Now they COULD offer a special mode where you opt-in for the check-in to be able to play full install games from disc without requiring the disc, but I think that there's just not enough demand for it. The vast majority of users absolutely dedicated to discless play will be well served by the digital distribution system already ready to go. As for me, I couldn't care less, I don't mind walking a few feet to drop a disc in, and I don't mind clicking download for something that interests me. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

there is no possible way they could do this. you could have 1 disc and then 100 people have it installed.

 

[Arkaign]

Ah, you're talking about digital download where I was talking about buying physical discs. Yes, digital downloads obviously don't require a disc in the drive. Originally, disc-based games wouldn't have needed it either after the first time.

Yeap, that's what I'm saying.

In other words, is that feature change (only supported by DD only now) enough to make you not buy an XB1? I would guess the answer to be of course not. In fact, I'd have to guess the total number of people who decided NOT to buy the XB1 because they can't do discless-from-disc play to be somewhere near zero.

vs.

24-hour online mandatory check-ins, which would have forced a good number of die-hard XBox fans to not even be able to buy it at all, or those that do to be able to have no way of taking it on deployment, or to places without internet.

All I know is that XB1 is going to be a great place for gaming, and everybody is invited

 

[purbeast0]

XBL is a paywall. It's just now PSN+ is a paywall too.

The big hangup with netflix on the 360 is that you're *already* paying for netflix service. Needing to pay on top of that for XBL to use the service you're already paying for, when literally every other netflix supporting device from your PC, to your TV itself, to the competitions console do not require this is frankly exploitative. Theres absolutely no reason for it. You want to give away games and exclusive demos and prerelease content behind that paywall? Ok, those things have value that make it more of a legitimate service. Arbitrarily locking a *WORSE* version (the 360 version of Netflix does not support 5.1 audio, the PS3 does) of a service you already pay for behind a paywall just because? No thanks.

ms created the netflix app and they can do as they feel they want to give access to it only if you have paid for xbox live. same with all these other features. if you don't like this principle then don't buy it. the millions of people that it doesn't bother will continue to use it.

your same argument about "already paying for netflix" can also be used for any online multiplayer games for ps4 and xbox1. you "already paid for the game" so why do you now have to pay to play it online?

as mentioned earlier, no one is buying an xbox1 to watch netflix or amazon prime. they are buying it to play games. same with ps4.

this thread should be closed now because it's turning into this tired argument that has been in countless threads on this board.

 

[Mushkins]

All I know is that XB1 is going to be a great place for gaming, and everybody is invited

I hope so. This generation really seems a lot more "one or the other" for most people than previous generations. I'm a big gamer, and going back to the NES days i've eventually bought nearly every mainstream console at some point in its active life. But back then it was all exclusive titles, and with the PS4/XBOne architectures both being so close to each other and so close to modern PCs, it really feels like the exclusives are dwindling and its more about picking the one system where the services match your needs instead of the games.

Sure, Xbox will still have Halo and PS will still have Uncharted. Or will it? Outside of marketing to move more consoles, I don't see a single technical reason why Uncharted 4 couldn't easily be a multiplatform release at this point. In all honesty I was expecting Kingdom Hearts 3 to be a PS4 exclusive, and it was kind of shocking just how *few* exclusives have been announced so far on both sides of the fence.

I get the feeling that a lot of people are going to buy one or the other this time around, and those two or three games on the other side of the fence just wont be enough to justify ever buying both.

 

[Arkaign]

there is no possible way they could do this. you could have 1 disc and then 100 people have it installed.

You don't understand what I'm saying. I didn't really describe it in enough detail.

Step 1 : Offer an opt-in for the online check in. This downloads a XBL/online only firmware to your XB1, disabling gameplay if internet is disabled after X hours.

Step 2 : On that XB1, you can then install completely from copies of the game that are specified to be for the online-only customer (eg; comes with a special keycode, disc is useless to normal XB1 users unless they go online with their XBL account and buy an install code themselves). As this type of customer obviously would have some kind of stable internet, they could order them online like Netflix used to be, and have them shipped fast and free right to their door, sleeve only.

Do I think that's a likely scenario? No, not really. I don't think the demand is there at all, and the downside for Microsoft is pretty much zero with the way things already are. Nobody is going to NOT buy an XB1 because they can't install from disc and then not need the disc.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Is there anything Microsoft has not changed since E3? Their entire E3 I think is now irrelevant.

The games and controller and box design...

 

[Arkaign]

ms created the netflix app and they can do as they feel they want to give access to it only if you have paid for xbox live. same with all these other features. if you don't like this principle then don't buy it. the millions of people that it doesn't bother will continue to use it.

your same argument about "already paying for netflix" can also be used for any online multiplayer games for ps4 and xbox1. you "already paid for the game" so why do you now have to pay to play it online?

as mentioned earlier, no one is buying an xbox1 to watch netflix or amazon prime. they are buying it to play games. same with ps4.

this thread should be closed now because it's turning into this tired argument that has been in countless threads on this board.

I agree with this sentiment, though I do think it's a silly silly thing to have paywalled. Do I think it matters in the big picture? No, pretty much zero. I just fail to see how it helps Microsoft in any possible way.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Okay... so let's take Netflix off the paywall list. There's still:

• Game DVR
• Skype
• One Guide
• NFL on XBox
• Amazon Prime

The list goes on. Notice, I didn't even put multiplayer on that list.

Well you can think of NFL as a subscription service anyhow. Game dvr...DVR boxes ain't free from the cable company either. Amazon prime video is the same as Netflix, nobody buys the system cause it has that.

On the subject of exclusives there will always be exclusive games for each platform. The company making the system owns some developers and they make games only for that system. Killer instinct, forza, halo and others vs knack, infamous, killzone and others.

The one key this time will be the os experience and the network. If Sony cannot deliver on their promises they will be left behind. Online play has become too important these days. It is far easier to deliver online content than extra single player story. So I think Sony offering a top tier online system that rivals Xbox live can really make or break them. If one or the other has a better online experience they will be more purchases. Microsoft has a head start, they have an established online system for the 360. Sony has nothing to build from. I don't expect them to be vastly different in function and quality but if they are...things change.

 

[Mushkins]

ms created the netflix app and they can do as they feel they want to give access to it only if you have paid for xbox live. same with all these other features. if you don't like this principle then don't buy it. the millions of people that it doesn't bother will continue to use it.

your same argument about "already paying for netflix" can also be used for any online multiplayer games for ps4 and xbox1. you "already paid for the game" so why do you now have to pay to play it online?

as mentioned earlier, no one is buying an xbox1 to watch netflix or amazon prime. they are buying it to play games. same with ps4.

this thread should be closed now because it's turning into this tired argument that has been in countless threads on this board.

You missed the point entirely, and I *did* speak with my wallet. I never subscribed for PSN+ OR XBL. The free features of PSN and the basic features of the PS3 have so far given me the added benefit of one less device in my media center with the fact that the PS3 is an excellent Blu-ray player that also supports Netflix and Amazon Video without me paying Sony an additional service fee on top of the service fees im already paying. Silver level XBL has given me... none of those, that's why my 360 is hooked up to the tiny TV in the bedroom and gets less use than the Roku next to it and the PS3 is the forefront of my media center in the living room.

You know what else this means? Multiplatform titles have been almost exclusively PS3 purchases in my home since I bought the thing. You can say it doesn't make a difference all you want, but when you're talking about market penetration and getting your product in front of the people with money to buy more games/services/whatever for that product, there *is* a difference and every little thing counts. Were those purchases because "OMG multiplayer" or "Rah rah netflix!!"? No, they were because the Sony device won it's place connected to the big TV with the nice sound system and the comfy couch. The place where I want to enjoy my games.

 

[smackababy]

I agree with this sentiment, though I do think it's a silly silly thing to have paywalled. Do I think it matters in the big picture? No, pretty much zero. I just fail to see how it helps Microsoft in any possible way.

It helps because when you compare the premium services (XBL Gold vs PSN+) XBL has a lot more bullet points. The average consumer doesn't know Netflix is free on the PS4. They look at the multiplayer requirement and say "Hmm, $50 for XBL and I get multiplayer, netflix, amazon, nfl, free games or PSN+ and I get multiplayer; XBL is a much better value". It is the same reason they don't sell TVs by their actual resolution; consumers are not smart enough to compare two numbers.

That, and anyone who used both services this generation, knows paying $4 a month for XBL is worth it. PSN is awful.

 

[purbeast0]

I agree with this sentiment, though I do think it's a silly silly thing to have paywalled. Do I think it matters in the big picture? No, pretty much zero. I just fail to see how it helps Microsoft in any possible way.

it adds "value" to xbox live gold. instead of paying $5/mo JUST to play games online, you now get this laundry list of other features that you now have access to. it's a total marketing ploy. because of it though, there are much more bullet points for xbox live gold than psn+.

EDIT:

raped by smackababy!