Mueller indicts Russians

Page 14 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,211
6,630
126
Ive just finished reading the 37 page indictment, and have come to the conclusion Russia wasnt so much trying to get Trump into office (as this campaign started in 2014) but rather to create division and discord within America and it's voters. I would have to say they did that IN SPADES. As the old saying goes, a house divided against itself cannot stand. This is evidenced by the fact there were plants and rallies for BOTH sides of the aisle, and showing faux support for many candidates.

It angers me that this has caused such division in our country. Hate speech on both sides has never been as divisive as it has been in the last year. We've spent so much time focusing on "the other side" we've forgotten we're ALL Americans. Im reminded of our country's unity after 9/11. We cared not whether our neighbor was Republican or Democrat, but rather supported them as an American. I wish it didnt take a tragedy like that to bring unity to us all.
What unity are you seeing tragedy bringing us together on? All I see is a brainwashed right becoming so radically insane and impervious to reason it's forced the left to react to a 5 alarm fire. Demonizing say of the left is the way to make the right's worst fears come true. To demonize the other leads to control that depends on demonizing to remain in power which creates an endless purging of evil which leads to only one person left standing. It is a disease that consumes and consumes until it has eaten itself.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,824
1,583
136
Ive just finished reading the 37 page indictment, and have come to the conclusion Russia wasnt so much trying to get Trump into office (as this campaign started in 2014) but rather to create division and discord within America and it's voters. I would have to say they did that IN SPADES. As the old saying goes, a house divided against itself cannot stand. This is evidenced by the fact there were plants and rallies for BOTH sides of the aisle, and showing faux support for many candidates.

It angers me that this has caused such division in our country. Hate speech on both sides has never been as divisive as it has been in the last year. We've spent so much time focusing on "the other side" we've forgotten we're ALL Americans. Im reminded of our country's unity after 9/11. We cared not whether our neighbor was Republican or Democrat, but rather supported them as an American. I wish it didnt take a tragedy like that to bring unity to us all.

What? Damn, can anyone make an argument without this both sides false equivalency BS? They did that in spades because as usual one side has been readily willing to allow it. The fact that our PRESIDENT and half the country believes Russia wasn't involved in out election should speak for itself. Flip on Fox news and it will be evidently clear why our country is divided. We can't even have real debates anymore because we don't even have undisputed FACTS anymore. This administration has waged WAR on FACTS from the first day of their administration.
 
Reactions: greatnoob and rise
Jul 9, 2009
10,758
2,086
136
There doesn't need to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It's clear he is borderline traitorous given his stance with Russia and now in light of the indictments.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...nous-behavior-kurt-bardella-column/338300002/

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

**1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
So you think that President Trump somehow and someway committed treason, but you can't show any evidence that he did. Got it. Please see my above post about Trump Derangement Syndrome.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,178
1,773
126
"There is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity," Rosenstein said, adding there "there is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election."

Good news!

"No allegations" at this time. Whether he says so or not, that's the full implication of the indictments.

Let's examine. "No allegation . . . that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election."

I think it was some time in the early 1980s when statistical evidence passed muster to introduce it in a court of law.

At the same time, looking back at our own history of similar psy-war operations against Russia and other entities, with CIA-funded researchers in major universities publishing more innocent work in "Public Opinion Quarterly" until the Church Committee hearings, statistical analysis was critical to making operations effective and successful. Now . . the only statistics that would be available would likely be those gathered by the Russians as they proceeded with multiple campaign projects directed at state battlegrounds of particular value and interest. One would have to totally reconstruct their data-gathering in a context of a known strategy about the battlegrounds, available media and other factors. Or -- the Russians themselves would need to be available to comment or testify with authority. But these 13 indicted Russians? That wasn't their job. They could report data, but they wouldn't be able to analyze it in the appropriate context.

There are two standards for reaching the Truth: a scientific approach which always admits that a working theory could still be wrong and some uncertainty as to the hypothetical judgments toward some conclusion, and a legal approach. The legal approach has always been warned to be inaccurate, since the justice system is biased and skewed toward protection of the innocent. This is why "not guilty" verdicts do not mean that the accused didn't really do the crime, but rather that a legal standard of evidence proving lack of any reasonable doubt had not been met.

The mere fact that there are 13 indictments in an ongoing investigation confirms that the investigation has new ongoing life. If indications turn up that any of the 13, or any of the X unindicted people known or not yet known -- had collaborative contact with campaign personnel, then you can see things turn in that direction. And given Trump's own contact with Russian oligarchs, it could eventually drop in his lap.

By inference, which can be weak on the reasonable doubt count, Trump himself publicly invited the Russians to pursue psy-war projects against Clinton. And he is obsessed with there being "no collusion -- no collusion -- no collusion!"

The argument that the psy-war campaign began in 2014 -- therefore not specific to the campaign and consequently "no collusion" -- is absurd. Trump is trying to establish an argument of a time-line that isn't relevant to anything. And Trump has been a major figure since the Birth Movement: the Russians certainly would've analyzed that aberration as a matter of the social science behind their known psy-war strategy.

The sense of relief -- or the argument put forward -- that "there's no proof that the psy-war meddling affected the outcome of the election" -- is a sucker's ploy. You have a hard time proving it, but were there enough evidence to prove it statistically, it would be an uphill battle to pass muster in court, or at least in some courtrooms. Instead, it is a refuge sought by pro-GOP pundits, politicians and operatives to assure the Base of legitimacy, and a courtroom fallback from reality.

Yet our own national security apparatus no less than the KGB and its successor agency have a long history of measuring impacts on public opinion and directing orchestrated information campaigns in interaction with the data collection.

An early Director of CIA, Walter Bedell Smith, had said that "propaganda was an effective prophylactic," and would help greatly in reducing armaments expenditures. The Russians merely caught up, and are speedily surpassing in a new realm of media that wasn't imagined during Smith's time.

But the GOP argument is as shabby or more so than "hanging chads." You can seek legal refuge in the nature of the existing evidence or the uncertainty, but it's only an argument to stay in power. It is not an argument for the Truth.
 
Reactions: umbrella39
Jul 9, 2009
10,758
2,086
136
This is just the typical point of view of the tyrant supporter when liberty seeks to refresh itself in their blood. Welcome to the thinking of the founding fathers. Not the fault of the people that they will become violent when you try to pull them over a cliff because you've gone insane. Welcome to the machine.

taj, I may sound to you like I have TDS but what I have is actually a calm assurance that Trump is going down. When he was elected I started a thread Are we there yet, asking if people were ready to impeach. Are you there yet? We're getting closer, no? I've been there from his first day in office. What a terrible man to have as a President. You voted for somebody so self centered and narcissistic he won't defend the nation against a terrible Russian threat because he can't allow anybody to think he would have lost the election without their help. But he would have lost if people like you weren't able to be conditioned by fear not to be able to think. It's not your fault but it might be possible to wake up. You're not bad, you've just been put to sleep.
Actually Moonie I think we're much farther away from a President Trump impeachment than we were in Jan. 21st 2017.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,824
1,583
136
Fox News, my gosh. The people who listen to that show must be mindless morons. On one hand they are arguing the Obama administration had the FBI try to prevent Trump from winning the election, but on the other hand they are blaming Obama for not not preventing Russia from attempting to influence our elections to help Trump win when for almost the last year Trump could not admit Russia was tried to influence our election. Wtf.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,025
2,876
136
What? Damn, can anyone make an argument without this both sides false equivalency BS? They did that in spades because as usual one side has been readily willing to allow it. The fact that our PRESIDENT and half the country believes Russia wasn't involved in out election should speak for itself. Flip on Fox news and it will be evidently clear why our country is divided. We can't even have real debates anymore because we don't even have undisputed FACTS anymore. This administration has waged WAR on FACTS from the first day of their administration.

This point is not drawing an equivalency.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
When do we find it out it was actually Soros? Are they already saying it?

I mean here is the projection again: paid protesters.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,211
6,630
126
Actually Moonie I think we're much farther away from a President Trump impeachment than we were in Jan. 21st 2017.
Maybe, but that was not the real point of my post. I wanted to know if you were any closer? I won't know about the country generally until the Mueller finishes his investigation and presents his evidence. My suspicion is that it will show that Trump has committed impeachable offences. Then we will know if America is still America or has become an authoritarian state. My belief is that America, badly battered and damaged, will reaffirm the faith the founding fathers entrusted us with. If not the soul of every new born child that comes into the world will be imprinted from birth with those values with an endless span of time to awaken.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,025
2,876
136
Maybe, but that was not the real point of my post. I wanted to know if you were any closer? I won't know about the country generally until the Mueller finishes his investigation and presents his evidence. My suspicion is that it will show that Trump has committed impeachable offences. Then we will know if America is still America or has become an authoritarian state. My belief is that America, badly battered and damaged, will reaffirm the faith the founding fathers entrusted us with. If not the soul of every new born child that comes into the world will be imprinted from birth with those values with an endless span of time to awaken.

For me, the arguments supporting Trump have become thinner and thinner, based on no actual evidence that can be distorted to fit a set of facts but rather a fantasy for which facts cannot disprove. I'm not sure this is an actual change or just a change within myself. Either way, I'm thankful for it. And it has also made me more hopeful of those on the Trump side of things, wanting them to at least ally against Russia and Trump's failure there even if they still support his political agenda.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I have to say the evidence in the indictments strongly suggests they were trying to elect Trump. Or, more precisely, trying to damage or defeat Clinton. There is a reason why they spent nearly all of their resources on hurting her or trying to help one of her opponents, be it Jill Stein, Bernie, or Trump. There’s no other logical conclusion. They were clearly also trying to sow discord, but those two aims aren’t really incompatible as they wanted as close and as divisive an election as possible and Clinton was the large favorite.

As for the divisions in our country Russia may have made them worse but the people primarily to blame are ourselves (and the internet). People are more than happy to lock themselves into ideological echo chambers that teach them to hate the ‘other side’ without any prodding. One important thing to note though is that this echo chamber hate is not symmetric as it’s far more prevalent on the conservative side. This isn’t intended to be partisan, it’s intended to be factual. (Tons of data indicates this)

If we can’t even admit our views of the world have been warped by information bubbles I don’t see how we solve anything else.

I agree two years AFTER this campaign started they preferred Trump over Hillary. But dont lose fact that their original intent was to divide America.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...eveals-about-russias-internet-research-agency
this disinformation campaign was aimed at boosting Donald Trump, undermining Hillary Clinton, and sowing general “political discord” in the United States by supporting radical causes on both sides.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
What unity are you seeing tragedy bringing us together on? All I see is a brainwashed right becoming so radically insane and impervious to reason it's forced the left to react to a 5 alarm fire. Demonizing say of the left is the way to make the right's worst fears come true. To demonize the other leads to control that depends on demonizing to remain in power which creates an endless purging of evil which leads to only one person left standing. It is a disease that consumes and consumes until it has eaten itself.

I guess you didnt read my entire post.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
What? Damn, can anyone make an argument without this both sides false equivalency BS? They did that in spades because as usual one side has been readily willing to allow it. The fact that our PRESIDENT and half the country believes Russia wasn't involved in out election should speak for itself. Flip on Fox news and it will be evidently clear why our country is divided. We can't even have real debates anymore because we don't even have undisputed FACTS anymore. This administration has waged WAR on FACTS from the first day of their administration.

I guess you missed the point that the Russian's meddling started BEFORE Trump even announced his candidacy. You need to read the indictment. They were sowing division on BOTH sides.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,211
6,630
126
For me, the arguments supporting Trump have become thinner and thinner, based on no actual evidence that can be distorted to fit a set of facts but rather a fantasy for which facts cannot disprove. I'm not sure this is an actual change or just a change within myself. Either way, I'm thankful for it. And it has also made me more hopeful of those on the Trump side of things, wanting them to at least ally against Russia and Trump's failure there even if they still support his political agenda.
This is analogous I think to the problem of evolution. For Catholics, who have been wrong over and over about science and the nature of reality, and have been badly burned by that, have developed an unconscious need to be scientifically rational. So when faced with the fact that humans and apes share a common ancestor making it impossible for us to be the children of an independently created Adam and Eve, bent in the direction of science in the realization that how we evolved, that the Bible is not literally true, does not mean that God does not exist. The Bible can be the word of God but not literally. The truth is symbolically represented.

This was something fundamentalist Christians did not have a similar history of shame to prevent repeating, so their unconscious bias took the form asserting that if one word of the Bible wasn't literal then God would not exist.

I think we have a similar situation with Republicans between those who worship the man and those who believe in Republican ideals. This core unconscious bias will determine how they swing. And who knows, maybe some will discover their humanity.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
For me, the arguments supporting Trump have become thinner and thinner, based on no actual evidence that can be distorted to fit a set of facts but rather a fantasy for which facts cannot disprove. I'm not sure this is an actual change or just a change within myself. Either way, I'm thankful for it. And it has also made me more hopeful of those on the Trump side of things, wanting them to at least ally against Russia and Trump's failure there even if they still support his political agenda.

The Russians love Trump's political agenda. I rather suspect they're behind a lot of the alt-right raving we've seen over the last several years, as well.
 
Jul 9, 2009
10,758
2,086
136
Maybe, but that was not the real point of my post. I wanted to know if you were any closer? I won't know about the country generally until the Mueller finishes his investigation and presents his evidence. My suspicion is that it will show that Trump has committed impeachable offences. Then we will know if America is still America or has become an authoritarian state. My belief is that America, badly battered and damaged, will reaffirm the faith the founding fathers entrusted us with. If not the soul of every new born child that comes into the world will be imprinted from birth with those values with an endless span of time to awaken.
I think that Trump is a narcissist, a douchebag and a typical New York/Eastern Seaboard asshole, but I don't think it's an impeachable offense.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
You guys seem to be forgetting that Trump was talking about running in 2014, one of the News shows had a Russian wishing Trump good luck in the future election.
 
Reactions: rise

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,211
6,630
126
I think that Trump is a narcissist, a douchebag and a typical New York/Eastern Seaboard asshole, but I don't think it's an impeachable offense.
An impeachable offense is whatever you get impeached for. Being an asshole and President of the US should qualify immediately. And we will soon learn he is also a criminal. The facts all seem to me to indicate that. But I am happy we agree on the asshole part.
 
Reactions: feralkid

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,684
136
You guys seem to be forgetting that Trump was talking about running in 2014, one of the News shows had a Russian wishing Trump good luck in the future election.

As a chaos generator he suits Russian purposes just fine.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,824
1,583
136
I guess you missed the point that the Russian's meddling started BEFORE Trump even announced his candidacy. You need to read the indictment. They were sowing division on BOTH sides.

This was my post.
What? Damn, can anyone make an argument without this both sides false equivalency BS? They did that in spades because as usual one side has been readily willing to allow it. The fact that our PRESIDENT and half the country believes Russia wasn't involved in out election should speak for itself. Flip on Fox news and it will be evidently clear why our country is divided. We can't even have real debates anymore because we don't even have undisputed FACTS anymore. This administration has waged WAR on FACTS from the first day of their administration.

1.) Ask yourself what relevance your post has on what I said?
2.) After that ask yourself what relevance your post has on anything. It is possible and has been stated in the report you claim that you read, that Russia both started meddling before Trump announced and still wanted to help Trump win the election and then after went back to sowing division on BOTH sides. Don't be that idiot Fox News watcher who lets people tell him/her what to think. A brain is a valuable thing to waste.
 

rise

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2004
9,116
46
91
I agree two years AFTER this campaign started they preferred Trump over Hillary. But dont lose fact that their original intent was to divide America.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...eveals-about-russias-internet-research-agency
I agre they wanted to spread discord and divisiveness but it was the trumpets that embraced it. Hell, look at the timelines. Don't forget juniors meeting that he lied about, on national tv. I think he was proven to lie 3 times regarding that meeting, and thats only what we haven't learned yet.

I can't honestly say I saw the same fear mongering, nastiness, and yes, outright lying from "both" sides. Didn't happen.
 
Reactions: Younigue

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
This was my post.
What? Damn, can anyone make an argument without this both sides false equivalency BS? They did that in spades because as usual one side has been readily willing to allow it. The fact that our PRESIDENT and half the country believes Russia wasn't involved in out election should speak for itself. Flip on Fox news and it will be evidently clear why our country is divided. We can't even have real debates anymore because we don't even have undisputed FACTS anymore. This administration has waged WAR on FACTS from the first day of their administration.

1.) Ask yourself what relevance your post has on what I said?
2.) After that ask yourself what relevance your post has on anything. It is possible and has been stated in the report you claim that you read, that Russia both started meddling before Trump announced and still wanted to help Trump win the election and then after went back to sowing division on BOTH sides. Don't be that idiot Fox News watcher who lets people tell him/her what to think. A brain is a valuable thing to waste.
As you point 2, that's what I said lol
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |