muscle cars

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Insane3D
I love my fox bodied Mustang. Easy to work on, reliable, lots of power, and tons of options for upgrades.

Mine is not a classic like the cars listed, but it's still considered a "muscle car" I would think. Sure it's not as refined as some of the newer cars, but that's the beauty of it.

For old musclecars, modern refinement is over-rated.

Go drive a WRX-STi and try making that statement again.

How about reading my statement again?

Those of us that like musclecars, today's new refined cars are boring and lack style and mystique. Musclecars are raw, all steel, don't give a damn about fuel economy - make as much power as possible vehicles.

Got it now?

Well, why the fvck didn't you just say that to begin with dumbass? Am I a fvcking mind reader? :roll:

I did, but you have reading comprehension problems. I even bolded it for you.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
I suggest you grasp the term musclecar. WRX is not a musclecar. Unless it was made before 1980, has a V8, RWD and a midsize chassis. An exception can be made for the Buick Grand National and GNX.

No, I suggest you "grasp" the term and understand what a muscle car really is/was, and not just some nostalgic bullsh!t.
A muscle car is/was an otherwise run-of-the-mill economy car modified for true performance straight from the factory.
Manufacturers still build muscle cars today, just not American manufacturers. Otherwise, "rice" is the modern muscle, and we are right now today in the midst of a performance car revolution that makes the "good old" muscle car craze of late 60s/early 70s look like a little girls tea party.

Rice has nothing to do with muscle, its all flash, style with no substance.

A musclecar has always been and always will be a midsize 2 door chassis, V8, RWD with performance enhancing mods from the factory, however, they are not just an engine swap and suddenly become musclecars. A lot of other mods went into them. They were made from 1963-64 till 1973 by most standards. The exceptions would be the GN and GNX, possibly the Monte Carlo SS.

You don't like the definition? Too bad.

As for the tea party: bring on riceboy.

The real performance revolution now is comming from v8 powered RWD cars.

BTW-A couple grand in mods will get you 260-280 all wheel HP in a WRX-STi.

How much is an aftermarket exhaust for the GTO? Last I heard it was like $7,000...:Q

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Insane3D
I love my fox bodied Mustang. Easy to work on, reliable, lots of power, and tons of options for upgrades.

Mine is not a classic like the cars listed, but it's still considered a "muscle car" I would think. Sure it's not as refined as some of the newer cars, but that's the beauty of it.

For old musclecars, modern refinement is over-rated.

Go drive a WRX-STi and try making that statement again.

How about reading my statement again?

Those of us that like musclecars, today's new refined cars are boring and lack style and mystique. Musclecars are raw, all steel, don't give a damn about fuel economy - make as much power as possible vehicles.

Got it now?

Well, why the fvck didn't you just say that to begin with dumbass? Am I a fvcking mind reader? :roll:

I did, but you have reading comprehension problems. I even bolded it for you.

Riight...your comments were not at all specific. That is a pretty general statement. Could you have possibly been a little more vague?

 

[sniperruff]

how the hell did the term "WRX" get thrown into a "muscle car" thread anyway?

 

[Insane3D]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
I suggest you grasp the term musclecar. WRX is not a musclecar. Unless it was made before 1980, has a V8, RWD and a midsize chassis. An exception can be made for the Buick Grand National and GNX.

No, I suggest you "grasp" the term and understand what a muscle car really is/was, and not just some nostalgic bullsh!t.
A muscle car is/was an otherwise run-of-the-mill economy car modified for true performance straight from the factory.
Manufacturers still build muscle cars today, just not American manufacturers. Otherwise, "rice" is the modern muscle, and we are right now today in the midst of a performance car revolution that makes the "good old" muscle car craze of late 60s/early 70s look like a little girls tea party.

Rice has nothing to do with muscle, its all flash, style with no substance.

A musclecar has always been and always will be a midsize 2 door chassis, V8, RWD with performance enhancing mods from the factory, however, they are not just an engine swap and suddenly become musclecars. A lot of other mods went into them. They were made from 1963-64 till 1973 by most standards. The exceptions would be the GN and GNX, possibly the Monte Carlo SS.

You don't like the definition? Too bad.

As for the tea party: bring on riceboy.

The real performance revolution now is comming from v8 powered RWD cars.

BTW-A couple grand in mods will get you 260-280 all wheel HP in a WRX-STi.

How much is an aftermarket exhaust for the GTO? Last I heard it was like $7,000...:Q

Give me that much for a late model 5.0L Mustang and it's not even close. How much of those mods can the average person do in his driveway/garage? Subaru aftermarket is not even close to the parts that are available for most domestic V8 RWD cars...

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Black88GTA
THe WRX-STI makes 300-400 HP RWD V8 cars look like a "little girls tea party". OMG. :roll::roll:

You obviously have NO concept of what a Muscle Car is all about.

The WRX-STI, while a sweet car, is NOT in ANY WAY, SHAPE, or FORM a "muscle car". You will find few on this board (save for maybe Jules Maximus) who will agree with you. I'm sorry, but this is one argument that you WILL lose.

The STi comes with 300 hp from the factory, pal. And in stock form is faster down the 1/4 than a stock GTO of any model year. I mention the GTO in this reference because it, the Chevelle LS6, the Mustang Super Boss 429, and the Charger R/T were all the finest examples of factory-modified performance cars from the 60s. And the STi is as fast from the factory as any of those ever were from the factory.

But I wasn't comparing car to car, but era to era. What I clearly meant is that the modern performance car era is (and will continue to be for some time to come) much bigger than the muscle car era was.

Your nostalgia is blinding you, I think.

You lack of facts is blinding you.

300 hp, eh? More like 240 hp at the wheels.

R/T, do you know what it means? I didn't think so. Charger R/T is a vague description of a car.

WTF is a Mustang Super Boss 429? None was ever made so I am not sure what to make of that.

The GTO was never a performance leader.

Does the WRX weigh 3800lbs? No, then ballast must be added to make things equal.

Now lets race your WRX against, say a 1970 Buick GS 455 stage 1. Hmm, what's that I see? Oh, the race is over and the WRX is only half way down the track.

Hey, I got an idea! How about we remove the forced induction from the so-called import muscle and see what happens. Doh! They are eaten for lunch by slant 6 darts.

Hey, I got an idea! How about we remove 2 of the driven wheels from both cars and see who wins the race now??? Doh! Your precious Buick can't even make it to the starting box. :roll:

 

[Insane3D]

Bah..this thread is quickly degenerating into a pissing match...

:thumbsdown:

 

[sniperruff]

kinda want to buy THIS

Engines: Grand National: 3.8L V6 Turbo 245 bhp @ 4400 rpm, 355 ft-lb @ 2000 rpm. GNX: 3.8L V6 Turbo 276 bhp @ 4400 rpm, 360 ft-lb @ 3000 rpm.

that is an insane amount of torque!

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Insane3D

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
I suggest you grasp the term musclecar. WRX is not a musclecar. Unless it was made before 1980, has a V8, RWD and a midsize chassis. An exception can be made for the Buick Grand National and GNX.

No, I suggest you "grasp" the term and understand what a muscle car really is/was, and not just some nostalgic bullsh!t.
A muscle car is/was an otherwise run-of-the-mill economy car modified for true performance straight from the factory.
Manufacturers still build muscle cars today, just not American manufacturers. Otherwise, "rice" is the modern muscle, and we are right now today in the midst of a performance car revolution that makes the "good old" muscle car craze of late 60s/early 70s look like a little girls tea party.

Rice has nothing to do with muscle, its all flash, style with no substance.

A musclecar has always been and always will be a midsize 2 door chassis, V8, RWD with performance enhancing mods from the factory, however, they are not just an engine swap and suddenly become musclecars. A lot of other mods went into them. They were made from 1963-64 till 1973 by most standards. The exceptions would be the GN and GNX, possibly the Monte Carlo SS.

You don't like the definition? Too bad.

As for the tea party: bring on riceboy.

The real performance revolution now is comming from v8 powered RWD cars.

BTW-A couple grand in mods will get you 260-280 all wheel HP in a WRX-STi.

How much is an aftermarket exhaust for the GTO? Last I heard it was like $7,000...:Q

Give me that much for a late model 5.0L Mustang and it's not even close. How much of those mods can the average person do in his driveway/garage? Subaru aftermarket is not even close to the parts that are available for most domestic V8 RWD cars...

Anyone could do those mods in his driveway. I'm talking K&N Typhoon and turbo back exhaust...oh and engine management tuning.

BTW-You muscle car fanatics can wax poetic about the great 60s and 70s all you like but the fact remains that the performance industry has shifted largely to the cheap Japanese imports. Now that the Camaro is dead and the Mustang has an OHC engine the days of cheap bolt ons are over.

I like some of the muscle cars from the 60s but to find a decent example and start modding it now would be sacriledge (or they are just butt ugly cars that I wouldn't own anyway) and the cars weren't that fast stock to begin with.

As for the forced induction? Your point is moot. One of the fastest muscle cars today is the '04 Mustang Cobra. A forced induction car that costs almost $40k.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not a fanboi of any type. I just don't like looking back at the "good ol' days" when they were never that good and today isn't that bad. Cars today are better than cars were then. Simple fact.

Anyway, I was born in '71. One of my older brothers, who is now in his mid-40s, was very much a muscle car head back in the day. His pride and joy that I remember from my childhood was a gorgeous '65 Elky with a heavily-built 400 small block in it. I used to beg him to give me a ride to school (for obvious reasons). That thing could easily break the tires loose at 80 mph.

Look story short, it was actually he who suggested this connection to me a few years ago. We were talking about cars and he said, "Yaknow, these new imports they make nowadays are faster from the factory than my generation's muscle cars ever were." I put 2 and 2 together and realized the truth of it.

Now, I'm not knocking the muscle cars of the past. They are some of the finest examples of automotive engineering from their time. And some of them have never been surpassed in terms of design. But don't look too harshly on what's going on today because someday (say 20-30 years from now) people will be looking back with those same rose-colored glasses. Mark my words.

You have singled out a few high powered imports and then try to make it sound like all imports are racecars, they ain't.

On average, the good old musclecars were faster than 98% of todays cars.

As for the 283 chevelle crap; wtf? SS was a trim option and had nothing to do with HP. A 396 chevelle was a fast car. A 383 Road Runner was a fast car. A 283 chevelle was a vehicle to go to work in.

Fast is relative too. Most classic roadtests look crappy. Why? Try hooking up 400+ lb ft of torque with bias ply tires that are 7 inches across. Tire technology wasn't up to specs back then. These cars had restrictive air intakes and exhausts because they had to comply with regulations. This kills performance.

Modernize the cars a bit with real tires, shocks and better exhausts and air filtres and you will be very surprised at the difference. I have seen nearly stock musclecars pull .89 on a skid pad. That's better than most new cars today.

Not to mention fuel. 108 octane gas is not available anymore for these car's 13:1 compression. Each point in compression is worth 4% horsepower.

Weight is also a factor. Imports weigh less than 3000 lbs. The average musclecar weighs 3800+ lbs.

You cannot directly compare them unless things are equallized.

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: Vic
I'm not a fanboi of any type. I just don't like looking back at the "good ol' days" when they were never that good and today isn't that bad. Cars today are better than cars were then. Simple fact.

That can be said for most anything that stands to gain from improved manufacturing tolerances, better materials, use of powerful computers, precise robotics...etc. Look at the computer in front of you now, compared to one that was built in 1969 for example.

Anyway, I was born in '71. One of my older brothers, who is now in his mid-40s, was very much a muscle car head back in the day. His pride and joy that I remember from my childhood was a gorgeous '65 Elky with a heavily-built 400 small block in it. I used to beg him to give me a ride to school (for obvious reasons). That thing could easily break the tires loose at 80 mph.

Look story short, it was actually he who suggested this connection to me a few years ago. We were talking about cars and he said, "Yaknow, these new imports they make nowadays are faster from the factory than my generation's muscle cars ever were." I put 2 and 2 together and realized the truth of it.

And that's true in some cases. They also weigh 1000-1500 lbs less. But they are not, and will never be, muscle cars.

Now, I'm not knocking the muscle cars of the past. They are some of the finest examples of automotive engineering from their time. And some of them have never been surpassed in terms of design. But don't look too harshly on what's going on today because someday (say 20-30 years from now) people will be looking back with those same rose-colored glasses. Mark my words.

I never said anything bad about what's going on today in the automotive world. Read my past posts again. In fact, I think the whole resurgence of the performance market in the last 10 years or so is great (and kind of hard to believe, given the ever-more-strict rulings of the EPA, always rising (and never cheap) insurance rates, increasing gas prices, etc). I think the WRX-STI is awesome, but a muscle car it is not.

As to your point about 20-30 years from now - I hope you're wrong. I think you do too. But, you're probably correct. 20-30 years in the future, most cars will probably be hybrids (or powered by other means entirely), weigh next to nothing, and be designed primarily with efficiency in mind. Your WRX will probably look like a gas-guzzling, unrefined dinosaur, much like the musclecars of the late 60s era do today. However, it will never be a muscle car in the true sense of the word.

 

[LtPage1]

those cars are incredibly ugly.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
I suggest you grasp the term musclecar. WRX is not a musclecar. Unless it was made before 1980, has a V8, RWD and a midsize chassis. An exception can be made for the Buick Grand National and GNX.

No, I suggest you "grasp" the term and understand what a muscle car really is/was, and not just some nostalgic bullsh!t.
A muscle car is/was an otherwise run-of-the-mill economy car modified for true performance straight from the factory.
Manufacturers still build muscle cars today, just not American manufacturers. Otherwise, "rice" is the modern muscle, and we are right now today in the midst of a performance car revolution that makes the "good old" muscle car craze of late 60s/early 70s look like a little girls tea party.

Rice has nothing to do with muscle, its all flash, style with no substance.

A musclecar has always been and always will be a midsize 2 door chassis, V8, RWD with performance enhancing mods from the factory, however, they are not just an engine swap and suddenly become musclecars. A lot of other mods went into them. They were made from 1963-64 till 1973 by most standards. The exceptions would be the GN and GNX, possibly the Monte Carlo SS.

You don't like the definition? Too bad.

As for the tea party: bring on riceboy.

The real performance revolution now is comming from v8 powered RWD cars.

BTW-A couple grand in mods will get you 260-280 all wheel HP in a WRX-STi.

How much is an aftermarket exhaust for the GTO? Last I heard it was like $7,000...:Q

A couple grand in mods and I could make 800HP from a big block musclecar.

$7,000 for an exhaust? WTF did you come up with this? Oh wait do you mean a real GTO or that new thing?

this is getting silly.

 

[MrYAK]

Originally posted by: Prong
I'll take this one.

This is my dream car *drool* but with a 427 instead =D

My dad was telling me that his senior year in HS (1970) he sold all his pigs, like 10-20 head of them, to by this car brand new strait off the lot for only $2000. granted back then that was a good amount of money. but it was still cheaper back then then it is now.

 

[sniperruff]

stop arguing. anything that is NOT american CANNOT be a muscle car. anything WITHOUT A V8 cannot be a muscle car.

call them factory tuner or whatever. but the term "muscle car" is exclusive to cars with lots of power, drink fuel like crazy, and most have brakes that don't work.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Insane3D
Bah..this thread is quickly degenerating into a pissing match...

:thumbsdown:

I agree.

This is supposed to be about classic musclecars.

 

[KoolDrew]

Originally posted by: quakefiend420
that mustang is sweet

 

[Vic]

Iron Woode, you are aware that the factory hp stats of the muscle car era were so overrated that the SAE mandated a new method of calculating hp after the era was over, right? I mean, back in those days, manufacturers just measured hp by determining the volumetric efficiency from the exhaust flow and then factored that with the displacement. Sometimes, they never even tested an actual engine before they released hp stats. This was well-known, I thought. So don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house, eh?

As for the rest of your post, I was comparing stock for stock. Or are we going to start comparing modified to modified now?

Oh yeah, and this is a 1969 Mustang Super Boss 429. They did make them.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: sniperruff
stop arguing. anything that is NOT american CANNOT be a muscle car. anything WITHOUT A V8 cannot be a muscle car.

call them factory tuner or whatever. but the term "muscle car" is exclusive to cars with lots of power, drink fuel like crazy, and most have brakes that don't work.

Okay fine. I can live with that. :laugh:

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: MrYAK

Originally posted by: Prong
I'll take this one.

This is my dream car *drool* but with a 427 instead =D

My dad was telling me that his senior year in HS (1970) he sold all his pigs, like 10-20 head of them, to by this car brand new strait off the lot for only $2000. granted back then that was a good amount of money. but it was still cheaper back then then it is now.

What does a pig go for nowadays? :laugh:MFAO!!!

 

[sniperruff]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: sniperruff
stop arguing. anything that is NOT american CANNOT be a muscle car. anything WITHOUT A V8 cannot be a muscle car.

call them factory tuner or whatever. but the term "muscle car" is exclusive to cars with lots of power, drink fuel like crazy, and most have brakes that don't work.

Okay fine. I can live with that. :laugh:

i'd say muscle car is like juggernaut from x-man. it's butch, it's crude, it's raw. but somehow you can't help it but think that it's cool.

i guess you have to be more grown up to appreciate muscle cars. cars are not all about turbo changers and 22-inch chromes and NOS and shogun body kits and underbody neon lights...

 

[MasterAndCommander]

Can't we all just get along

I'd love to have a 1970 Boss 429 Mustang just as much as a mid 90's Mark IV Supra Twin Turbo :thumbsup:
A fast car is a fast car.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: sniperruff

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: sniperruff
stop arguing. anything that is NOT american CANNOT be a muscle car. anything WITHOUT A V8 cannot be a muscle car.

call them factory tuner or whatever. but the term "muscle car" is exclusive to cars with lots of power, drink fuel like crazy, and most have brakes that don't work.

Okay fine. I can live with that. :laugh:

i'd say muscle car is like juggernaut from x-man. it's butch, it's crude, it's raw. but somehow you can't help it but think that it's cool.

i guess you have to be more grown up to appreciate muscle cars. cars are not all about turbo changers and 22-inch chromes and NOS and shogun body kits and underbody neon lights...

Hey, I'm 37 years old. I grew up drooling over muscle cars and I've even owned a couple. There is no fvcking way I'd ever put 22-inch chromes, NOS, body kits or underbody neon lights on any car I own either. Hell, I wish the STi didn't have that cop magnet spoiler on it.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sniperruff
stop arguing. anything that is NOT american CANNOT be a muscle car. anything WITHOUT A V8 cannot be a muscle car.

call them factory tuner or whatever. but the term "muscle car" is exclusive to cars with lots of power, drink fuel like crazy, and most have brakes that don't work.

I disagree

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Vic
Iron Woode, you are aware that the factory hp stats of the muscle car era were so overrated that the SAE mandated a new method of calculating hp after the era was over, right? I mean, back in those days, manufacturers just measured hp by determining the volumetric efficiency from the exhaust flow and then factored that with the displacement. Sometimes, they never even tested an actual engine before they released hp stats. This was well-known, I thought. So don't throw rocks when you live in a glass house, eh?

As for the rest of your post, I was comparing stock for stock. Or are we going to start comparing modified to modified now?

Oh yeah, and this is a 1969 Mustang Super Boss 429. They did make them.

The change you mentioned had nothing to do with overrated or underrated hp figures. The change was needed to give a more realworld picture about the power of the vehicle. The new method is called net horsepower. This is the actual rearwheel power the car made.

The manufactures did dyno test their engines, dude. Whether they fudged the amount is debateable. Most cars were underrated for insurrance reasons. Some were overrated like chevy's LS6.

Mopar in particular was underrating their engines. The 340 was rated at 275 HP while dyno figures showed 320 hp. The 440 6 pack was rated at only 390 HP, but was really closer to 420 hp. The hemi was rated at 425 hp no matter what level of tune it had. That is why the Hemi Dart is rated at 425hp, but made nearly 600hp.

The 1970 Buick GS 455 cars made different power depending. Stock GS 455 made 350 HP, Stage 1 360 HP. Same stock 455 in a fullsize car made 370 HP. Weird, eh? The STage 1 is estimated to be closer to 425 HP. The Stage 2 which only 2 were made, have no officail HP rating but estimates place it closer to 450 HP.

The 429 Boss Mustang is Real, but that Super thing is a dealer mod Mustang. Tasca Ford is a dealership and did the same thing for Ford that Yenko did for Chevy.