Mythbusters punk'd whole internet

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ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
See... I told that you weren't going to see a plane on a treadmill take off today! Now where's my $5?
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
I really like Mythbusters but....too drunk to understand WTF this is about.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: randay
Originally posted by: jagec
Once again, P IS connected to T via the angular momentum term! If the treadmill is continuously accelerating in the opposite direction, it can generate a force on the body of the plane via the wheel hubs. If T is accelerated fast enough, it can actually overpower the force of the engines and cause P to become negative. This takes a pretty crazy amount of acceleration, but it is mathematically possible.

According to you, T does not affect P, angular momentum from acceleration affects P. Speed(T) has no correlation to angular momentum.

T = T + W

P = thrust - angular_momentum

So if the treadmill speeds up, the wheels don't turn faster?
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
thank you lord "'episode 97'. Currently that is due to air on January 30th. "

you dudes be sure to remind us so we won't miss it
 

randay

Lifer
May 30, 2006
11,018
216
106
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: randay
Originally posted by: jagec
Once again, P IS connected to T via the angular momentum term! If the treadmill is continuously accelerating in the opposite direction, it can generate a force on the body of the plane via the wheel hubs. If T is accelerated fast enough, it can actually overpower the force of the engines and cause P to become negative. This takes a pretty crazy amount of acceleration, but it is mathematically possible.

According to you, T does not affect P, angular momentum from acceleration affects P. Speed(T) has no correlation to angular momentum.

T = T + W

P = thrust - angular_momentum

So if the treadmill speeds up, the wheels don't turn faster?

bold text = acceleration.

take a wheel in space that is spinning 999m/s, use a string and change that to 1000m/s.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: randay
Originally posted by: jagec
So if the treadmill speeds up, the wheels don't turn faster?

bold text = acceleration.

take a wheel in space that is spinning 999m/s, use a string and change that to 1000m/s.

Yes, you apply a force to the edge, adding angular and linear momentum and accelerating the wheel. I'm as to how accelerating the treadmill isn't supposed to affect the plane.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
you guys realize the plane has to leave the treadmill to take off
it isn't going to magically hover above the treadmill and fly

it accelerates down the length of the treadmill in order to get air over the wing to produce lift and then fly off into the sky

if the treadmill is too short, shorter than the distance required for takeoff, then it won't work
 

mobobuff

Lifer
Apr 5, 2004
11,099
1
81
Originally posted by: FoBoT
you guys realize the plane has to leave the treadmill to take off
it isn't going to magically hover above the treadmill and fly

it accelerates down the length of the treadmill in order to get air over the wing to produce lift and then fly off into the sky

if the treadmill is too short, shorter than the distance required for takeoff, then it won't work

That's why it's better to think of it as a conveyor belt the length of a runway.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: FoBoT
you guys realize the plane has to leave the treadmill to take off
it isn't going to magically hover above the treadmill and fly

it accelerates down the length of the treadmill in order to get air over the wing to produce lift and then fly off into the sky

if the treadmill is too short, shorter than the distance required for takeoff, then it won't work

Uh...duh?

Did anyone think that this was a problem?
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: FoBoT
you guys realize the plane has to leave the treadmill to take off
it isn't going to magically hover above the treadmill and fly

it accelerates down the length of the treadmill in order to get air over the wing to produce lift and then fly off into the sky

if the treadmill is too short, shorter than the distance required for takeoff, then it won't work

Uh...duh?

Did anyone think that this was a problem?

I think there are several things that are causing people to argue about this problem.

Some are caused by not understanding how a plane works and some are caused by differences in how people are understanding the setup of the problem.

Any difference in those variety of factors can cause people to come up with different answers to the problem.

How a plane works problems
-How does a plane create thrust to move forward
-Does the movement of air from just the engine allow it to take off
-What impact does the force exerted on the wheels make on the total movement of the plane

Setup of the problem
-How do we measure the "speed" of the plane (relative to a stationary object of relative to the conveyor belt / wheels (Like a speedometer attached to the wheels)
-How long is the treadmill
-What assumptions are we making about friction

Whatever

I can see how you can be very very set in a single answer and be totally correct about it based on the particular question you're trying to answer and people will argue with you based on their own assumptions about the problem and think of the other person as an idiot.

It's very easy to be arguing about the answer with a difference in the understanding of the setup of the problem and thinking that the other person isn't understanding your answer based on the "How a plane works" part of the problem.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
I've seen some very well put "answers" to the problem that should in theory get everyone to agree with the answer "it will take off" based on the setup of the problem as I think it was originally presented, where the speed of the treadmill is controlled by the speed of the plane relative to a stationary object. Example:

This is somewhat of a "trick" question. Not because it is phrased in a
deliberately tricky way, but because people tend to have trouble
thinking about the operation of other vehicles apart from cars which
they know so well.

The heart of the confusion is simply these two important facts:
* cars propel themselves by pushing against the ground via friction
* airplanes propel themselves by pushing against the air
If you can let go of how cars operate and think about what an airplane
does, you'll be able to see the problem clearly.

One good way of tackling this problem is to find a good analogy. But
the analogy must be a valid one else you'll just get more confused.
For example, someone posted the analogy of running on a treadmill. Why
is that a bad analogy? Because one runs by pushing against the ground
via friction between their shoe and the ground. This is how a car
propels itself! It is not how an airplane propels itself, by pushing
against the air. Bad analogy.

Let's use this analogy. Instead of looking at the airplane, let's back
up and go into the airport. Suppose you're walking down to your gate
and pulling your carry-on bag behind you. It's a nice new bag with low
friction wheels. No problem! Up ahead you see one of those moving
walkways. You don't see anyone coming, so you decide to do a little
experiment. You go over to the walkway that is moving TOWARDS you and
place your bag on it. Meanwhile, you step off to the side of the
walkway, and still holding on to the handle of your bag, you continue
to walk along. In fact, you intentionally walk along at the same speed
that the moving walkway is going, just in the opposite direction.
Question: does the bag move or does it remain stationary as you keep
walking? Obviously it moves with you. So why does your bag move
forward when you are walking at the same speed of the conveyor going
in the opposite direction?

The answer to that question is also the answer to the
airplane-conveyor question. To complete the analogy, the pull of your
arm is analogous to the force of the airplane engines. The bag's
wheels are analogous to the airplane tires. Do the nice low-friction
wheels on your bag on the conveyor pull against you anymore than they
do when you're just pulling your bag along normally? No, they don't.
They are free-wheeling, after all. Meanwhile, you're pulling the bag
with the same force in both cases. So in both cases, the bag keeps
moving forward. Likewise with the airplane, the pull of the engines
doesn't change nor does the force on the airplane imparted by the
tires change no matter what the ground is doing underneath the tires.
You have the same force imbalance in either case, and since Force =
mass x accceleration, you have the same acceleration. Remember, we are
talking airplane engines which push against the AIR, not the ground.
The acceleration is with respect to the AIR, thus the airplane
develops a speed relative to the air and can eventually take off.



BUT, if the person is assuming a different setup to the problem, like the speed of the treadmill is controlled by the speed of the plane relative to the conveyor belt (which would be the case if you had a speedometer from a car attached to a wheel on the plane), then this setup of the problem and given explanation doesn't make sense because by moving anything on the treadmill other than keeping it still relative to a stationary object, you'll create a difference in the speed of the wheels and thus you've disobeyed the rule that the treadmill's speed must equal the wheel speed in the opposite direction.
 

randay

Lifer
May 30, 2006
11,018
216
106
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: randay
Originally posted by: jagec
So if the treadmill speeds up, the wheels don't turn faster?

bold text = acceleration.

take a wheel in space that is spinning 999m/s, use a string and change that to 1000m/s.

Yes, you apply a force to the edge, adding angular and linear momentum and accelerating the wheel. I'm as to how accelerating the treadmill isn't supposed to affect the plane.

Youre missing the big picture, everything ive said is in regard as to why you think the treadmill will stop accelerating when the airplane reaches 0 airspeed, and why I think it will continue to accelerate until the airplane takes off backwards.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: randay
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: randay
Originally posted by: jagec
So if the treadmill speeds up, the wheels don't turn faster?

bold text = acceleration.

take a wheel in space that is spinning 999m/s, use a string and change that to 1000m/s.

Yes, you apply a force to the edge, adding angular and linear momentum and accelerating the wheel. I'm as to how accelerating the treadmill isn't supposed to affect the plane.

Youre missing the big picture, everything ive said is in regard as to why you think the treadmill will stop accelerating when the airplane reaches 0 airspeed, and why I think it will continue to accelerate until the airplane takes off backwards.

Because if it continues to accelerate and the airplane starts moving backwards, the control system of the treadmill will sense this (wheel speed < treadmill speed), and decrease the rate of acceleration, even into the negatives if needed.
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: FoBoT
dude, did you think of the bag analogy yourself? :thumbsup:

No, but it's one of the better simple to understand analogies I found that is a good way to think about the problem if you're taking the assumption that you measure the plane speed relative to a stationary object.

The analogy is from

John Strong
Ph.D., biochemical engineering
M.S., chemical engineering
B.S., mechanical engineering

He also drew a rudimentary force diagram but I didn't think ATOT would format it right and I didn't want to complicate things further since anyone that really understands a force diagram and is still arguing about this problem is probably just not understanding some assumption of the problem and that's where the discrepancy is coming from.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
nobody said the treadmill has a magic speed sensing control system. i don't remember anything like that in the original thingy
but is doesn't matter anyway, see yoyojelloman's bag analogy above ^^^
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: FoBoT
nobody said the treadmill has a magic speed sensing control system. i don't remember anything like that in the original thingy

As I understood it, the treadmill was always supposed to be measuring the speed of the plane and then it was supposed to go that exact speed (but in the opposite direction).

What was not clear in all cases was how we were measuring that speed.

If it's the speed of the plane relative to a stationary object, then that youtube video I linked earlier should make it clear to anyone that the treadmill can be speeding backwards at the same speed at the plane (or in the case of the video many times faster) and the plane will still accelerate forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

If we take a different interpretation of the problem in which the treadmill's speed is controlled by a "car style" speedometer attached to the wheel of the plane, that's where all the problems with magic sensors and physical limitations of materials as they approach the speed of light come into play
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
it still doesn't matter, as you pointed out, the wheels are free wheeling, so it doesn't matter if the treadmill speeds up to spin the dumb wheels faster, the thrust from the engine (assuming a jet engine, i wonder if the mythbusters got one of those cool toy jet planes) pushes on the air and the wheels free wheel and don't matter. the engine pushes on the air and the plane moves up the belt and takes off when it reaches take off speed
 

YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Moderator<br>A/V & Home Theater<br>Elite member
Aug 6, 2001
31,204
45
91
Originally posted by: FoBoT
it still doesn't matter, as you pointed out, the wheels are free wheeling, so it doesn't matter if the treadmill speeds up to spin the dumb wheels faster, the thrust from the engine (assuming a jet engine, i wonder if the mythbusters got one of those cool toy jet planes) pushes on the air and the wheels free wheel and don't matter. the engine pushes on the air and the plane moves up the belt and takes off when it reaches take off speed

Is this in regard to what I said about if we assume the problem is using the wheel speed as the speed of the treadmill?
 
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