NBA Discussion Thread

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gimmewhitecastles

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2005
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I can not look at Dallas as anything other than a regular season record queens and completely soft in the playoffs. They just don't have a killer instinct. I don't know what it is about them but they crumble when it gets into the postseason.

Well their best player is German. Choking is in their blood. They had two shots to win a World War and couldn't pull it off.
 

gimmewhitecastles

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2005
1,834
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Starts and ends with Dirk. They've been very unsuccessful building around him, with an weak ass post defense, along with questionable SF positioning. They've always had a good PG, but when your best SG is a streaky bench player, you're going to have issues. The biggest mistake was getting rid of Avery, and then burning the team and ditching Devin Harris.

Dallas' run is coming to an end. Kidd and Nowitski are just too old now.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
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Dallas' run is coming to an end. Kidd and Nowitski are just too old now.

Cuban should have let Dirk go somewhere this summer, whether it was Utah, Denver, Chicago or hell, even Houston. He didn't go out and spend $$$ to upgrade the team outside of getting Dirk. And sorry, Chandler isn't that great.
 
May 13, 2009
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Dallas with Dirk has been to the west finals 2x and the finals once. They are in the playoffs every year and have 50+ wins. Dirk gets no respect. His teams are always in the mix. How players like Wade, Melo, etc get so much respect and Dirk gets none puzzles me. Dallas with Dirk does not have years of not making the playoffs or squeaking by with a barely over .500 record like Melo or Wade has done. What about Kobe? He was getting his ass stomped every year by the Suns til the Grizzlies and the rest of the NBA decided to give players away to them. Dirk had freaking Josh Howard as his no 2 guy for years. Josh freaking Howard. Now his no 2 is Jason Terry. Terry is clutch but come on he's an undersized shooting guard coming off the bench. I bet Dirk has 4 rings if he's playing alongside David Robinson or Parker and Giniboli.
 
May 13, 2009
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Dallas' run is coming to an end. Kidd and Nowitski are just too old now.

You don't watch the NBA much do you? Sure Kidd is old as dirt but dude has the best court vision in the game besides Nash. Between those two it's a tossup IMO. Dirk is having one of his best years and with his playing style he should continue to be the best power forward in the game over the next couple years. And yes Dirk is better than Duncan at this point in their careers.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
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Dallas with Dirk has been to the west finals 2x and the finals once. They are in the playoffs every year and have 50+ wins. Dirk gets no respect. His teams are always in the mix. How players like Wade, Melo, etc get so much respect and Dirk gets none puzzles me. Dallas with Dirk does not have years of not making the playoffs or squeaking by with a barely over .500 record like Melo or Wade has done. What about Kobe? He was getting his ass stomped every year by the Suns til the Grizzlies and the rest of the NBA decided to give players away to them. Dirk had freaking Josh Howard as his no 2 guy for years. Josh freaking Howard. Now his no 2 is Jason Terry. Terry is clutch but come on he's an undersized shooting guard coming off the bench. I bet Dirk has 4 rings if he's playing alongside David Robinson or Parker and Giniboli.

Dirk gets the respect he deserves. He's a 7' shooting guard who plays terrible defense and doesn't have a good post game. Actually, the only post game he has is to turn and do a fading jump shot. For YEARS he had Steve Nash, Michael Finley and Jason Terry, along with Josh Howard. Oh, and he had two years where they didn't make the playoffs or get over .500 - his rookie and sophomore year. He's also been surrounded by some good role players.
 

gimmewhitecastles

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2005
1,834
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You don't watch the NBA much do you? Sure Kidd is old as dirt but dude has the best court vision in the game besides Nash. Between those two it's a tossup IMO. Dirk is having one of his best years and with his playing style he should continue to be the best power forward in the game over the next couple years. And yes Dirk is better than Duncan at this point in their careers.

chris paul, deron williams, rajon rondo, and derrick rose are better PGs than kidd at this point.
 

zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,042
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I'm a Twolves fan and can only stomach 15-20 games a year. I've been pretty enthused lately because of Love's play and Darko and Beasly occasionally looking good but getting a new a-hole torn by LAC is too much to take... (that and Beasly and Darko are both high usage, low-efficiency scorers at least Darko plays D now....).

The biggest problems with the NBA are (the refs) make-up calls and star calls. You can clearly tell that some refs anticipate contact and call it even if it doesn't happen. Get us to a semi-level playing field and I'd be willing to watch more. I also think travels should get called....
 

zebano

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2005
4,042
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chris paul, deron williams, rajon rondo, and derrick rose are better PGs than kidd at this point.

He was actually talking about court vision and I think in your group only CP3 is "better" than Kidd. I thik D-Will is certainly on par and maybe Rondo as well (tenacious defender), Rose is an amazing athlete, but I think he's still learning how to facilitate.
 

neegotiator

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2006
1,117
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keeping up with my rockets seeing if they can squeak into the playoffs, or if any deals made.

agreed about the mavs, great regular seasons followed by disappointing playoffs. I'd take SA over Dallas in a series right now.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
4
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He was actually talking about court vision and I think in your group only CP3 is "better" than Kidd. I thik D-Will is certainly on par and maybe Rondo as well (tenacious defender), Rose is an amazing athlete, but I think he's still learning how to facilitate.

Rajon > Deron > CP3

Deron is EXTREMELY underrated. Actually, I'd put Rajon as the best PG in the league over Nash, even in court vision. Mostly because court vision does not a PG make, as much as their team + court vision. When Nash first went to the Suns, his numbers went through the roof because of the players he had around him. As they've gone away, he's slowed down - they're not in a pass first kind of offense like most contenders. Most of his assists come from passing inside on fast breaks, etc.
 

gimmewhitecastles

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2005
1,834
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Rajon > Deron > CP3

Deron is EXTREMELY underrated. Actually, I'd put Rajon as the best PG in the league over Nash, even in court vision. Mostly because court vision does not a PG make, as much as their team + court vision. When Nash first went to the Suns, his numbers went through the roof because of the players he had around him. As they've gone away, he's slowed down - they're not in a pass first kind of offense like most contenders. Most of his assists come from passing inside on fast breaks, etc.

Rajon shouldnt be that high. His outside shooting and free throws are a huge liability. defensively and leadership-wise he's a beast.

I would rank CP3 the best overall. He made west and chandler look better than what they actually are. NO needs to do a better job putting a team around him.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
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Rajon shouldnt be that high. His outside shooting and free throws are a huge liability. defensively and leadership-wise he's a beast.

I would rank CP3 the best overall. He made west and chandler look better than what they actually are. NO needs to do a better job putting a team around him.

PG's run the point - they're not really there to score. Let's understand that the best PG in league history made his living like this, John Stockton. A shooting PG has a tendency to be come selfish and create for themselves - they make a living getting assists from fast breaks and dumping the ball.

CP3 is also a terrible defender - he plays the passing lanes (steals per game does not make one a good defender). This makes him a terrible defender because it can cause him to draw off his man and require someone to pick them up, leading to mismatches or open players. CP3 also has a size issue - DW is a great combination between Rondo and CP3.
 
Oct 20, 2005
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Dirk gets the respect he deserves. He's a 7' shooting guard who plays terrible defense and doesn't have a good post game. Actually, the only post game he has is to turn and do a fading jump shot. For YEARS he had Steve Nash, Michael Finley and Jason Terry, along with Josh Howard. Oh, and he had two years where they didn't make the playoffs or get over .500 - his rookie and sophomore year. He's also been surrounded by some good role players.

His D has improved over the years and it's pretty good this season.

As for offense, he has more than just his unstoppable elbow fade jumper. He knows how to find the open man when he's double teamed. He can fake his defender out fairly well to get an And 1 or foul. He can drive in and make a lay up (left or right handed) even with 2-3 defenders there since he has such a long reach. He may not be flashy, but he is a damn smart player.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
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His D has improved over the years and it's pretty good this season.

As for offense, he has more than just his unstoppable elbow fade jumper. He knows how to find the open man when he's double teamed. He can fake his defender out fairly well to get an And 1 or foul. He can drive in and make a lay up (left or right handed) even with 2-3 defenders there since he has such a long reach. He may not be flashy, but he is a damn smart player.

No, his defense has not improved. His DRtg has been pretty consistent, you can see it here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

Don't be fooled by his basketball IQ on offense - his defense sucks. Arguably, it's where his team needs him the least though, outside of a weak side defense. Dirk's biggest issue is Cuban surrounds him with crappy players - much like LeBroom and the Cavs, on paper, most of their teams look great and do good in the regular season. Once they're in the playoffs, that's another story.
 
Oct 20, 2005
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No, his defense has not improved. His DRtg has been pretty consistent, you can see it here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

Don't be fooled by his basketball IQ on offense - his defense sucks. Arguably, it's where his team needs him the least though, outside of a weak side defense. Dirk's biggest issue is Cuban surrounds him with crappy players - much like LeBroom and the Cavs, on paper, most of their teams look great and do good in the regular season. Once they're in the playoffs, that's another story.

I don't understand that statement. You essentially are saying his IQ on offense is low, then defend that by talking about his defense?

What are you basing that his offense IQ is low? He can shoot, drive (somewhat), has very good footwork, can fake his defenders very well, dish it out to an open person, isn't greedy, etc.
 

dougp

Diamond Member
May 3, 2002
7,909
4
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I don't understand that statement. You essentially are saying his IQ on offense is low, then defend that by talking about his defense?

What are you basing that his offense IQ is low? He can shoot, drive (somewhat), has very good footwork, can fake his defenders very well, dish it out to an open person, isn't greedy, etc.

Let's put this in numbers - let's use an elementary school scoring level.

Dirk's Offense IQ Grade - 90 - Like I said, his post moves suck (using leverage and size to back the opponent up) - but his vision is good, so his passing suits him here.

Dirk's Defense IQ Grade - 65-70 - He can't defend the post - it appears his quickness disappears that he had on offense, he still doesn't understand how to use his leverage to his advantage and his P&R defense is piss poor. That's actually the biggest way the Spurs beat them last year, by forcing Dirk to match up to Tony and then exploiting Duncan on Kidd or TP driving against Dirk and getting the call.

Don't misunderstand me though, I think Dirk is a phenomenal player, but you're giving him WAY too much credit on defense.
 
Oct 20, 2005
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Let's put this in numbers - let's use an elementary school scoring level.

Dirk's Offense IQ Grade - 90 - Like I said, his post moves suck (using leverage and size to back the opponent up) - but his vision is good, so his passing suits him here.

Dirk's Defense IQ Grade - 65-70 - He can't defend the post - it appears his quickness disappears that he had on offense, he still doesn't understand how to use his leverage to his advantage and his P&R defense is piss poor. That's actually the biggest way the Spurs beat them last year, by forcing Dirk to match up to Tony and then exploiting Duncan on Kidd or TP driving against Dirk and getting the call.

Don't misunderstand me though, I think Dirk is a phenomenal player, but you're giving him WAY too much credit on defense.

Perhaps I am regarding Defense.

However, I was really more confused on why you said his offense IQ is low when it in fact isn't. I said he is a great offensive player (obvious to most ppl) and that he is pretty smart when it comes to offense. And then you post saying his IQ is low offensively but don't really back that up w/ anything (prior to your last post).
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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However, I was really more confused on why you said his offense IQ is low when it in fact isn't.

He didn't say that. He said don't be fooled by his offensive IQ and think it carries over to other end of the court.
 

mooncancook

Platinum Member
May 28, 2003
2,874
50
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I am a Kings fan and the best hope for the team now is to get the #1 pick next year. This season is a BIG disappointment. The Kings and the Mavs were used to be in the same league, but now the Kings is irrelevant.
 
Oct 20, 2005
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He didn't say that. He said don't be fooled by his offensive IQ and think it carries over to other end of the court.

He didn't say that either, at least not explicitly.

I know he said and backed up that Dirk's def isn't good which I am not arguing anymore about. He showed numbers and my judgment on that may not have been the best informed earlier.

However, I also did say that he was a smart player on offense since he is able to do so much. Dougp then counters by saying don't be fooled by his offensive IQ which was what confused me.

Vi_edit, I'm not sure how you were able to derive what you said based off of

"Don't be fooled by his basketball IQ on offense - his defense sucks"
 

gwai lo

Senior member
Sep 29, 2004
347
0
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well, i can see how you'd be confused if we consider basketball IQ to be a single value that defines offensive and defensive performance, dougp kind of split it into two numbers for each end of the court.

"Don't be fooled by his basketball IQ on offense"

his IQ on offense = good

" - his defense sucks"

his IQ on defense = a different and lower number
 
Oct 20, 2005
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well, i can see how you'd be confused if we consider basketball IQ to be a single value that defines offensive and defensive performance, dougp kind of split it into two numbers for each end of the court.

"Don't be fooled by his basketball IQ on offense"

his IQ on offense = good

" - his defense sucks"

his IQ on defense = a different and lower number

I see. I was mis-reading his statement then. When Dougp said "don't be fooled by his iq on offense", I read that as if he was claiming Dirk's offensive IQ was bad/low.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
All I gotta say is that the Spurs are dominating even with Duncan playing the least amount of minutes he's ever played. Good ol' Pop saving his key players for the Playoffs. Pop also makes good players out of no-names. I think Pop is a better coach than Phil Jackson as Jackson has always had GREAT teams with multiple HoF players to coach.
 
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