need electrician help

[Omegachi]

Im currently in escrow to purchase a home that was built in 1959. Hired a home inspector yesterday and he found the wiring in the home is not up to date. The outlets has the 3 sockets but when you go into the box the ground wire is not connected. The whole house is like this and even in the bathrooms where GFCI outlets were installed but does not work because of no ground wiring.

I don't plan to do a DIY project on this because of safety issues, most likely will hire an electrician to do the work. But I just want to know if this is something hard to fix and I am wondering if anyone else had experience similar to my situation. How much does it usually cost to fix a problem like this. I will call couple of electricians in the next few days to get an estimates, but just wondering if I could get an answer here also.

The home I am purchasing is around 1500 sqft, single story, and there are probably around 13-15 outlets throughout the house.

*latest update*
So the seller agreed to give me $8500 (asked for 17k in credit). should I take it and run? or as for a little bit more...?

*update*
I have contacted several electrical repair companies and also spoke with my electrician friend. They all gave me an estimate, without looking in the house, of at least more than 10k to fix the problem. I will request the seller to credit me 12k for all the repairs around the house, hopefully the seller is nice enough to accept my request.

Does anyone have any experience with writing a buyer request for repairs/credit letter? Here is my draft, is this the right format and does it sound convincing? (maybe I should start a new thread for this):

Dear Seller,

Numerous deficiencies were identified during the home inspection, but several items stood out as major problems that will require repairs.

1. The outdated electrical outlets and panels are not grounded. Three prong outlets were installed in the outlet receptacles but no grounding wire is attached to the grounding port of the outlets. GFCI outlets are found to have been installed in the bathroom outlet receptacles, but grounding wire is not attached (GFCI outlets will not work without ground wire). Electrical panel is missing grounded branch circuits. The current electrical code requires updated wiring and also requires grounding wire to be install in all electrical panels and outlets throughout the house. Outdated wiring and the lack of grounded outlets may lead to shock and fire hazards to the occupants of the home. I take the safety of my property and my family members very seriously, therefore I request this problem to be fixed before I will let my family to occupy the house. Furthermore, the outdated wiring in the home will stop me from performing any renovations to the kitchen or the bathrooms as contracts will not work on outdated circuits.

2. Termite damage is found in numerous rafter tails on the roof. The damaged rafters requires repairs because this problem affects the structural integrity of the house. It is unclear as to the extent of the damage because the attic portion of the rafter were not inspected (detailed termite inspection was not performed). Damaged rafters may lead to the collapsing of the roof so this problem needs to be repaired. Since this issue deals with the structure of the house, a licensed contractor will need to perform the termite damage repairs.

3. Main roof shingles are worn and show signs of weathering. The roof shingles appears to be at the end of its useful life. When the roof shingle fails, rain water may enter the house through the roof and cause property water damage and may cause fire or shock hazards if the water come in contact with any electrical component.

The seller is requested to either fix the deficiencies described above or credit the buyer a total $12,000 so licensed contractors can be hired to repair these problems. Please note that the cost to perform the above repairs will most likely cost more $12,000, but I requested for this amount because I believe its an amount we both can work with.

 

[deadlyapp]

If the wires going to the outlets have a ground wire, then it shouldn't be that difficult, especially if the outlets are already all hooked into the ground wire. All that needs to be done at that point is having the grounds all tied together and ran to a grounding rod.

The only really expensive part is if the existing wiring in the home does not have a ground wire. In that case all the wiring would technically need to be replaced if you wanted modern wiring.

Edit: I'm not an electrician, but that I believe I'm correct.

 

[iGas]

Perhaps the house is GFCI protected with GFCI breakers, which is code compliance for old construction that have only 2 wires to a receptacle.

It is possible to run grounding wiring to all receptacles, or rewire the house, however it can be time consuming and is an expensive process.

 

[DrPizza]

As both above mentioned - the answer is "depends."
If you can look inside one of the outlet boxes - is there a bare copper wire in addition to the other two covered wires? If so then you *may* be in luck, and in this case, then it would be wisest to have someone competent to teach you what to do, rather than pay someone to change all of them. The cost to fix this would be under a dollar per outlet. I couldn't even guess how much an electrician would charge per outlet - and it'd probably depend on what geographical part of the country you're in. Wild guess - maybe $10 per outlet? Maybe $30 per outlet.

But, you'd also have to look into either the breaker box, else fuse box. At that end of the wire, is the copper wire in there? Or as they did sometimes, is the copper wire just snipped off at the point of entry so as not to have to bother with it? If that's the case, then it's probably electrician time for you - they'd have to mount a bunch of junction boxes next to the breaker or fuse box, and splice in a section of wire. If it's a fuse box, that would be a good time to switch over to a breakers.

However, if the wires don't have a copper ground wire, or if the copper ground wire is snipped off at the point where it reaches the box, then it's going to get expensive. The cost would vary widely, depending on the type of construction of the house. 1 story, unfinished basement/unfinished attic would be cheaper. Or basically - it's all about time. The easier it is to run the new wires, the cheaper it's going to be. It can be time consuming, and it can require damaging the wall board which would need to be repaired afterward.

Also, a GFCI does not need a ground wire to be effective. The way they work is independent of having a ground wire. (Not that they shouldn't have one.) The ground is there for the same reason the ground is there for appliances. Appliances don't use the ground wire - it's there in case something goes bad. GFCIs can go bad - if that happens, you're no longer protected (else, they fail in the off position.)

 

[SampSon]

It all depends on how the electrical system is wired.

Is the wiring up to date? Is the main breaker box up to date? As in, does it have typical wiring that is three wire, romex style wiring throughout? Are the boxes properly installed? Is the frame of the entire house properly grounded? There are quite a few questions that come up that really can't be answered on the internet without a picture of every single wire and aspect of the wiring system. Even then no one on here can properly assess the health of your electrical system in your house.

The cost of skilled labor mostly depends on where you are located and depends completely on your local market (obviously). Most types of jobs like this are dependent on situation and can only be estimated roughly. As you know you need to get about 3-4 professionals in there to quote you.

I'm involved in the general real estate profession. Expect it to cost you between $50 and $125 per outlet or fixture for a professional licensed electrician. The lower may be for more simple outlet only installs. The mid to higher may be for more complex fixture installs with switches and new wiring. You also have to consider the cost of materials, which are high due to copper costs.

It all depends on the scope of the job. You can be safe and expect $100 per outlet/fixture/switch etc, that should include labor/materials, everything. There are obvious market variation and can be on the lower end if you're not in a higher priced market.

If you need a new service box, or main service then the price increases by a solid $1,500 to $2,000.

Edit: DrPizza if you got a guy that will do $10 to $30 per outlet then I'll pay him right now and tip him an extra $50 plus a case of beer to drive the hour up to my place in erie county.

Second edit: Get a professional licensed electrician to give you an opinion, period, obviously! The opinions of specific electric methodology given on this forum are most likely poor, as evidenced by the first three posts in this thread. No offense guys!

 

[DrPizza]

The $10 to $30 was based on a guess of $100 per hour, and outlets with the ground wire in them. I've seen quite a few outlets where the box was grounded, but not the outlet (the old style outlets didn't have a ground screw on them.) Swapping out the outlet, and sticking in a pigtail shouldn't take longer than 5 minutes per outlet. At 6 minutes per outlet, including time going to and from outlets (which is moving at a pretty steady pace), that worked out to $10 per outlet. Ditto switches.

I can see that an electrician would charge $50 or more for an outlet - if he were only doing one or two. But, that seems pretty steep if he's doing an entire house. Slowwwwwww would be 4 outlets an hour. At $30 per outlet, that's still $120 per hour. (minus expenses: about $4 per hour)

As far as cost of materials being high - they're really not that high. 12/2 NM/B romex, with ground, is only about 28 cents per foot. ($70 per 250 foot box, or I think a 1000 foot roll was 270 last I looked; 2 or 3 weeks ago.) Compared to the cost of labor, the increase in cost of copper is pretty negligible. And, if running new romex to all the outlets, I think your $125 per outlet is a reasonable shot in the dark, though it will vary a lot depending on the construction and area of the country.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

If theres no ground in the DB then it won't trip when theres a short. Fire

 

[Jeff7]

...
Also, a GFCI does not need a ground wire to be effective. The way they work is independent of having a ground wire. (Not that they shouldn't have one.) The ground is there for the same reason the ground is there for appliances. Appliances don't use the ground wire - it's there in case something goes bad. GFCIs can go bad - if that happens, you're no longer protected (else, they fail in the off position.)

There might also be an issue when it comes to surge suppressors. My understanding is that they work largely by shunting high-power surges to ground. If that ground connection doesn't actually go anywhere...

 

[edro]

Couldn't they just replace the whole panel with new GFCI/AFCI breakers?
Aren't they code now anyway for all living spaces? (bedrooms, bathrooms)

OP, are you concerned because the home inspection mentioned it, or is it required for your home loan or insurance?
There are millions of houses without grounded outlets.
But yeah, I would much rather live in a house with truly grounded outlets.

 

[Gibson486]

Fyi... In lots of states, if you update or touch the electrical to make any modificafions, you will be responsible for making sure everything is is up to date with code. So, if you hire an electrician and he is very insistant on pulling a permit, that is why.

 

[slsmnaz]

My house was built in 1934 and had only a couple grounded outlets (done by previous homeowner). We had them rewire all the outlets, install gfci in the bathroom and a couple other small things. IIRC it cost around $1300 and took one day. I will say the access was a big thing in mine since they could get in the attic and crawlspace to run the wires as needed. Probably more expensive/difficult without that

 

[bruceb]

The main issue here, is wether the outlet boxes and the main panel are grounded. In older homes, such as this one, it was probably built before Romex was around, so it likely has Metal boxes and used BX (armored cable). If that is the case, check that the main panel is grounded and just run pigtails from the Green screw of the outlet to a screw on the back of the metal box. You can test this easily with a Test Lamp. Connect it from the Black (hot) wire and the metal box. If it lights, your box is grounded. If not, then more work is needed to fix the issue.

 

[sao123]

Bought a 2 story house (plus attic and basement) built in 1933.

Completely rewired from the pole in (new meter, service entrance, breaker box, breakers, new wires boxes, outlets, switches, ceiling lights) including 220V for dryer and A/C for for <$2000... (~$1800)

Of course that was zero labor... as me and my father did it all ourselves.

 

[Wyndru]

Our house (mid 60's) had been upgraded at some point with "pig tail" grounding (they basically used a copper wire and grounded it to each box). We have GFCI outlets near water sources.

I tested all of the outlets, and while not specifically not up to modern building code they test grounded and I've never had any issues with it. That might be what they did in your house as well. I'll let other more qualified forum members comment on whether doing this is dangerous or not. I'm just stating my experience with it.

 

[Greenman]

Simplest answer is to install the old style two prong outlets, that would return the house to an as built condition. Another option is to replace the outlets with GFIC's, thats an accepted fix that I don't like at all. Third option is to rewire. The house most likely has knob and tube wiring, with the possibility of an undersized ground running behind the plaster.
I'd have a lead survey done first. The rules for dealing with old lead based paint are draconian at the very least, with tremendous fines for non compliance.

 

[edro]

I'd have a lead survey done first. The rules for dealing with old lead based paint are draconian at the very least, with tremendous fines for non compliance.

Lead based paint is simple to deal with. You paint over it with approved latex paint.

 

[Squisher]

OP, what are you looking for here? Are you looking for the most up to date modern wiring that will afford you the most protection or are you trying to pass the municipality's inspection to get a certificate of occupancy? In most cases the first one will cost more.

 

[IGBT]

the lead based paint issue has turned into a EPA racket. In some cases they want a enviro.impact report done for each disturbance and lead content determined by a lab.

 

[Tsaico]

I had just done some work like this on a rental, and it was expensive for just the kitchen, let alone the whole house. I had re-done the kitchen and tore out the old stuff cabinets, sink, appliances, etc. Then I had tear down most of the drywall, to expose the pipes to most them around. I found the electrical to be what you described. Then began my adventure...
I replaced the main breaker box (which was close to the kitchen thank god), then the wiring to the kitchen was replaced. The cost for the box and this wiring was 5k, plus the costs to re-drywall (which I did myself 200-ish, and maybe 20 hrs or work), but I am sure that would be close to 1k, no paint, just drywall and mud).
The electrician re-did the box and kitchen only. To re-do the entire house, he was quoting close to 30k, I found the previous owners had done some of the grounding work by grounding the cold water pipe system, then running ground wire to the cold water pipes throughout the house in parts and pieces. From what I understand, it works, but presents a shock hazard to future plumbers if they remove plumbing that keeps everything grounded and should eventually be dealt with by installing a new grounding source and re-wiring.

 

[edro]

the lead based paint issue has turned into a EPA racket. In some cases they want a enviro.impact report done for each disturbance and lead content determined by a lab.

Yep.
Same with mold and radon.
There is a lot of money changing hands in real estate and they know if they scare home buyers, testing and abatement is an easy sell.

 

[werepossum]

It all depends on how the electrical system is wired.

Is the wiring up to date? Is the main breaker box up to date? As in, does it have typical wiring that is three wire, romex style wiring throughout? Are the boxes properly installed? Is the frame of the entire house properly grounded? There are quite a few questions that come up that really can't be answered on the internet without a picture of every single wire and aspect of the wiring system. Even then no one on here can properly assess the health of your electrical system in your house.

The cost of skilled labor mostly depends on where you are located and depends completely on your local market (obviously). Most types of jobs like this are dependent on situation and can only be estimated roughly. As you know you need to get about 3-4 professionals in there to quote you.

I'm involved in the general real estate profession. Expect it to cost you between $50 and $125 per outlet or fixture for a professional licensed electrician. The lower may be for more simple outlet only installs. The mid to higher may be for more complex fixture installs with switches and new wiring. You also have to consider the cost of materials, which are high due to copper costs.

It all depends on the scope of the job. You can be safe and expect $100 per outlet/fixture/switch etc, that should include labor/materials, everything. There are obvious market variation and can be on the lower end if you're not in a higher priced market.

If you need a new service box, or main service then the price increases by a solid $1,500 to $2,000.

Edit: DrPizza if you got a guy that will do $10 to $30 per outlet then I'll pay him right now and tip him an extra $50 plus a case of beer to drive the hour up to my place in erie county.

Second edit: Get a professional licensed electrician to give you an opinion, period, obviously! The opinions of specific electric methodology given on this forum are most likely poor, as evidenced by the first three posts in this thread. No offense guys!

This. I'm an electrical designer and pretty comfortable wiring homes, but I'd get a professional's opinion if I weren't completely comfortable with doing the work myself AND in an area where I legally could do the work myself. From a fire safety standpoint it would be nice to have arc fault breakers anyway (which is why these are current code), but a ground pole (also current code for good reason) is still highly desirable for personal safety. It's also imperative that your system be well grounded - another good reason to seek professional advice. Often grounding is not easily inspectable and must be measured. Also, GFCIs (ground fault circuit interrupters) work by measuring the current flowing through the hot wire versus that flowing through the neutral wire; if there is no ground, they do not work. A GFCI receptacle with no ground will never sense a current imbalance and therefore won't protect you if some current is flowing to ground not through the neutral connector. If you happen to be that alternate current path, this is going to be VERY important to you. An easy if less convenient way around that is to use GFCI circuit breakers rather than receptacles, but you need to know that your fridge and/or freezer aren't on circuits that can be tripped like this or you could lose a lot of expensive food or worse, poison yourself.

The cost to rewire your house is going to vary hugely with the construction. Sometimes it's very simple to run new wire, other times the existing path (such as between floors or even in a slab) is simply not reusable and another path must be found.

 

[DrPizza]

This. I'm an electrical designer and pretty comfortable wiring homes, but I'd get a professional's opinion if I weren't completely comfortable with doing the work myself AND in an area where I legally could do the work myself.


Also, GFCIs (ground fault circuit interrupters) work by measuring the current flowing through the hot wire versus that flowing through the neutral wire; if there is no ground, they do not work. A GFCI receptacle with no ground will never sense a current imbalance and therefore won't protect you if some current is flowing to ground not through the neutral connector. If you happen to be that alternate current path, this is going to be VERY important to you.

What on Earth is an "electrical designer?" I'm assuming that it relates to figuring out where to put outlets in new construction, where to put GFI outlets, arc fault breakers, lighting, etc. It requires knowledge of the NEC, but apparently no knowledge of how things work? No offense meant, but there was nothing wrong with my post (well, possibly my prices are a little low, but in my area of the country, stuff like that is a lot cheaper than in more urban areas) particularly that a GFCI does NOT need a ground to function. It is your post that is in error (how a GFCI provides protection - I agree with him getting a professional assessment, and that's also why I suggested that in the best case scenario - all he'd have to do is change the outlets - he should have a competent person teach him how. In almost all the other scenarios, well, I suppose he could learn, but the general attitude on the forums is "God forbid someone around here actually learn a skill that decades ago was relegated to the "you're not college material, you should enter a trade" crowd. (Now, a lot of smarter students are entering the trades - great money & no college tuition/loans.))

You are correct in that a ground fault breaker works by comparing the current in the neutral and hot. This comparison has nothing to do with the ground wire. That's why these outlets are typically in places where YOU can easily become the alternate current path, such as around water. And it's also why GFCIs are approved for providing protection in the case of two conductor wiring (hot,neutral.) Because of the high resistance of human skin, it's quite easy for you to become part of a parallel circuit, with a very low current - FAR too low to trip the circuit breaker. The most common breakers for household circuits in the US that would have a GFCI on it are 15 amps and 20 amps. Lethal current at 120 volts is well under 1 amp. Therein is the reason for a ground fault interupter - if YOU become part of the circuit, it trips, and it trips in less time than a circuit breaker trips (or would trip.) But, if the GROUND becomes part of the circuit, as you're suggesting happens, the GFCI is simply redundant - the ground wire becoming energized is generally a short circuit that would trip the breaker anyway.

Now, there's the possibility that a GFCI may fail, in which case, the ground wire becomes more important. Though, they made some changes in the early 2000's - they're not supposed to "catch" if they're hooked up incorrectly, even for a fraction of a second. I'm not 100&#37; certain, but I believe that they're designed to fail into always off, rather than ever fail into "always on" and stop giving protection. Nonetheless, that's what the test button is for (and should be tested monthly.)

And lastly, a properly functioning GFCI won't always protect you. In case of a transformer, it does NOT protect against a shock on the secondary. It's as good as useless in those situations. Though, generally a homeowner won't run into problems, as the majority of transformers have such a low voltage on the secondary that it's not an issue.

 

[edro]

A GFCI receptacle with no ground will never sense a current imbalance and therefore won't protect you if some current is flowing to ground not through the neutral connector.

Failboat

GFCIs are recommended by the NEC on outlets without a ground wire.

You have the bolded part completely backwards.
The GFCI DOES trip and protect you if some current is flowing to ground and not through the neutral conductor.

 

[werepossum]

What on Earth is an "electrical designer?" I'm assuming that it relates to figuring out where to put outlets in new construction, where to put GFI outlets, arc fault breakers, lighting, etc. It requires knowledge of the NEC, but apparently no knowledge of how things work? No offense meant, but there was nothing wrong with my post (well, possibly my prices are a little low, but in my area of the country, stuff like that is a lot cheaper than in more urban areas) particularly that a GFCI does NOT need a ground to function. It is your post that is in error (how a GFCI provides protection - I agree with him getting a professional assessment, and that's also why I suggested that in the best case scenario - all he'd have to do is change the outlets - he should have a competent person teach him how. In almost all the other scenarios, well, I suppose he could learn, but the general attitude on the forums is "God forbid someone around here actually learn a skill that decades ago was relegated to the "you're not college material, you should enter a trade" crowd. (Now, a lot of smarter students are entering the trades - great money & no college tuition/loans.))

You are correct in that a ground fault breaker works by comparing the current in the neutral and hot. This comparison has nothing to do with the ground wire. That's why these outlets are typically in places where YOU can easily become the alternate current path, such as around water. And it's also why GFCIs are approved for providing protection in the case of two conductor wiring (hot,neutral.) Because of the high resistance of human skin, it's quite easy for you to become part of a parallel circuit, with a very low current - FAR too low to trip the circuit breaker. The most common breakers for household circuits in the US that would have a GFCI on it are 15 amps and 20 amps. Lethal current at 120 volts is well under 1 amp. Therein is the reason for a ground fault interupter - if YOU become part of the circuit, it trips, and it trips in less time than a circuit breaker trips (or would trip.) But, if the GROUND becomes part of the circuit, as you're suggesting happens, the GFCI is simply redundant - the ground wire becoming energized is generally a short circuit that would trip the breaker anyway.

Now, there's the possibility that a GFCI may fail, in which case, the ground wire becomes more important. Though, they made some changes in the early 2000's - they're not supposed to "catch" if they're hooked up incorrectly, even for a fraction of a second. I'm not 100&#37; certain, but I believe that they're designed to fail into always off, rather than ever fail into "always on" and stop giving protection. Nonetheless, that's what the test button is for (and should be tested monthly.)

And lastly, a properly functioning GFCI won't always protect you. In case of a transformer, it does NOT protect against a shock on the secondary. It's as good as useless in those situations. Though, generally a homeowner won't run into problems, as the majority of transformers have such a low voltage on the secondary that it's not an issue.

What I've been told by the manufacturer's specifications engineer is that while the GFCI receptacle will trip, it will not necessarily trip within 1/4 cycle at 6mA and that therefore an ungrounded circuit should always be protected by a GFCI circuit breaker rather than a GFCI receptacle. Modern GFCI devices use logic circuits to measure net current, which ideally (with the exception of very long circuits past the GFCI protection where the phase on the neutral no longer matches the phase on the hot) are net zero. A GFCI circuit breaker is grounded at the panel; a GFCI receptacle is grounded via the equipment grounding wire or, on an ungrounded two-wire circuit, via the neutral. If however the neutral is no longer continuous to ground, the circuit will not operate until the voltage in the hot wire is sufficiently high for the IC to ground through the conduction of air, which will not meet UL 973. Therefore an ungrounded circuit should always be protected by a GFCI circuit breaker rather than a GFCI receptacle. That's how it was explained to me and it makes sense. (I had originally raised the question of how best to protect a historic building which had no ground anywhere in lighting and receptacle circuits; I wanted to use breakers because of the number of receptacles, but had concerns about the length of some of the circuits as a long circuit with an inductive or capacitive device can be problematic on GFCI circuits.)

An electrical designer is one who does the work of an electrical engineer, but does not have a P.E. I don't do residential, but I do understand how things work, including the limitations on them, at a fairly high level, because I'm expected to know not only what will work, but what will work best.

You're right though, I should not have said "never".

 

[DrPizza]

"I should not have said "never." That's implying that you were even close with that advice. The real world difference in safety for a GFCI outlet vs. breaker is probably about zero (although, I don't know the failure rate of the breakers. In lightning prone areas, the failure rate of GFCI outlets is significant, hence the "test monthly." AFAIK, a "fail off" has been invented, though I don't know if it's made it to market.)

But, Let's keep it nice and simple for the viewers: does an ungrounded GFCI protect a person just as well as a grounded GFCI? The NEC seems to think, "Yes." Mike Holt seems to say "yes." That's a lot different than "never" or even "almost never."

You are right though - in the case of a GFCI outlet without a ground, and in which there is no neutral upstream of the GFCI, you're probably better protected by a GFCI breaker. However, (in my opinion), having both things happen - contact with an energized circuit, with a broken neutral - incredibly unlikely. And, given the difference in cost, probably not worth it. In fact, the NEC seems to agree that it's a highly unlikely situation, as they have failed to update requirements for GFCIs to have open neutral protection. BUT, they have updated portable GFCI requirements to HAVE open neutral protection. I can't think of anyone who would claim the NEC isn't careful enough, especially in regard to household wiring. The open neutral protection on extension cords used at work sites is now an OSHA requirement, afaik. (a temporary GFCI breaker in a panel solves this.)

And, to add to the thread,
another way you can be electrocuted despite a GFCI: not being grounded - i.e. grabbing both the hot and neutral while not standing in a puddle/touching a faucet/whatever, then flipping the switch on.