need electrician help

[Omegachi]

updated. please see original post.

 

[Humpy]

Negotiating a better price is a great idea but I don't get the rational of using perceived flaws as a tactic. It seems like a waste of effort on an old building. This isn't really directed at the OP but when I read these type of posts I often wonder what people expect when looking at buying a 50 year old house. Obviously, almost nothing will be "up to date" unless it's been gutted and rebuilt to modern standards.

A ton of issues could be hidden from the inspector unless he does extensive destructive examinations and I wouldn't want the seller involved in anything that was found to need repair. Besides a completely rebuilt house the other ideal is one that is in original, as built condition. Then one knows exactly what they are buying. The worst is a place that has had years of DIY homeowner hack repairs and low bid remodels that prettied up a turd.

If safety really is a primary concern then maybe building a new house is a better idea. Lead paint, lead solder, asbestos, corroded wiring, poor ventilation, overloaded circuits, choked sewage system, rodent droppings, unsecured windows and doors, lack of hardwired smoke alarms, filthy HVAC ducts, and the general smegma left behind after years of human occupation all come included as part of most old buildings.

 

[edro]

If the shingles are end-of-life and you have termite damage to the rafters AND you want to upgrade the electrical system... $12k is a decent demand.

Did they price the house accordingly for the old roof?

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Failboat

GFCIs are recommended by the NEC on outlets without a ground wire.

You have the bolded part completely backwards.
The GFCI DOES trip and protect you if some current is flowing to ground and not through the neutral conductor.

I don't see the difference what he said and you said.

There is a common misconception about GFCI without ground installations, so let me clarify it for you.
You might have an older house with electrical wiring that hasn’t been updated. You decided to replace an existing electrical outlet receptacle in your bathroom, kitchen, garage, etc. with a GFCI outlet.


However, there are only two wires inside the electrical junction box – no ground, and no easy way to install additional conductor, which would provide grounding.

Whenever you’re replacing an electrical outlet receptacle in an area currently requiring GFCI protection, such protection must be provided by using a GFCI outlet receptacle or by protecting this particular circuit by a GFCI breaker – it’s mandatory.

Find out 2008 NEC (National Electrical Code) GFCI required locations.
GFCI without ground

Lack of a grounding conductor is definitely a negative, but good thing about GFCI outlets is that: equipment grounding is not required for their installation and for the device to function properly. The grounded person becomes the equipment grounding conductor, and the current going through them creates the imbalance that trips the GFCI.

So, in our “GFCI without ground” case, those installed GFCI receptacles (if wired properly – get GFCI installation manual) will perform as required by code when tested with their push-buttons. A testing device used on such GFCI outlet will show “open ground”, and it would not trip the device.

Be extremely careful while testing a GFCI outlet or any receptacle with a metal trim plate. If it happens to be a GFCI without ground, or the circuit not properly (or at all) protected by a GFCI device, and you accidentally touch that metal plate while pushing test button, you might get shocked.

By depressing the test button on a GFCI without ground, the metal cover plate would be energized, and if by any chance you are touching another grounded surface…, it’s going to hurt.

However, to fully comply with NEC requirements in cases where no equipment ground is present, the installed GFCI without ground MUST be marked “No Equipment Ground”.

Any receptacles down the stream from it / protected by this GFCI, must have two labels on its face-plate: “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground”.

Below are the 2008 edition NEC (National Electrical Code) requirements for the GFCI without ground installations.

Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles.
Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with the following:
A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).

A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type receptacles.

http://www.checkthishouse.com/4661/nec-requirement-for-gfci-without-ground-installation.html

 

[edro]

I don't see the difference what he said and you said.

Then you aren't reading correctly.

He basically said "Without ground conductor, GFCI will not protect you"
I basically said "Without ground conductor, GFCI will protect you"

Total opposites.

 

[Omegachi]

Should I increase the requested amount knowing that the seller will probably counter with a lower number? (if any...)

 

[amdskip]

Get an estimate to rewire the house for a couple electricians and include that with your offer.

 

[edro]

You have to look at it from the seller's point of view.
The house operates fine as is.
They are NOT going to give you $10k off the price to redo wiring unless they were going to lower by $10k to begin with.

Your only leverage is to get them worried about their property and their ability to sell it since it is "defective" according to your inspector.

 

[iRONic]

Should I increase the requested amount knowing that the seller will probably counter with a lower number? (if any...)

I'd actually reconsider closing on this property. Depending on your location and the current market there must be something better available.

Hope it works out for you.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Then you aren't reading correctly.

He basically said "Without ground conductor, GFCI will not protect you"
I basically said "Without ground conductor, GFCI will protect you"

Total opposites.

Oh now I see. You dont need the ground. As stated in that article. Appoligies sorry

 

[Omegachi]

You have to look at it from the seller's point of view.

Your only leverage is to get them worried about their property and their ability to sell it since it is "defective" according to your inspector.

How do I do that?

 

[bruceb]

Whatever you do, don't let the seller fix it. They will take the cheap way out and you may not know if it was done properly or if all the electrical issues are fixed. Either get a credit, after you provide 2 or 3 estimates, so they know it is a fair estimate or walk away. You already have 2 major issues. Electrical which can be very minor or entail a major rewire job. And termites which may be localized or hidden elsewhere to be found later. You are talking about a home that is about 63 years old.

 

[Omegachi]

So the seller agreed to give me $8500 (asked for 17k in credit). should I take it and run? or as for a little bit more...?

 

[feralkid]

The main issue here, is wether the outlet boxes and the main panel are grounded. In older homes, such as this one, it was probably built before Romex was around, so it likely has Metal boxes and used BX (armored cable). If that is the case, check that the main panel is grounded and just run pigtails from the Green screw of the outlet to a screw on the back of the metal box. You can test this easily with a Test Lamp. Connect it from the Black (hot) wire and the metal box. If it lights, your box is grounded. If not, then more work is needed to fix the issue.

Good advice.

If OP is a true novice, this would work as well:

 

[Omegachi]

Good advice.

If OP is a true novice, this would work as well:

I am a novice. the home inspector used that during the inspection and he was the one that informed me about the missing ground.

btw, if anyone still cares. i accepted the $8500...

 

[DrPizza]

See if you can take a class locally to learn household wiring. You'll save a ton of money vs. hiring it to be done. Labor is the lion's share of the cost; and electricians make quite a bit per hour.

 

[Delbert]

Someday I am going to grasp the neutral vs ground conductor function.
Inside the service panel they are tied together and both connect to that copper rod sunk 8 feet into the earth.

 

[edro]

Congrats on your new house!
Don't let the inspection worry you. All houses have issues. Almost all issues can be fixed.
Even major foundation issues are usually easily fixed (with enough money).

 

[bruceb]

The Neutral is there as the primary means of current return. The Ground is there as a safety backup and to prevent shocks. That is why in very old equipment with 2 wire line cords, the Neutral side was connected to the metal chassis. But with older plugs the same width, before polarized 2 wire plugs and outltets came along it was possible to put the plug in reversed, making the metal chassis hot to the user. Grounding and polarized outlets eliminate this risk when properly wired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral

 

[werepossum]

"I should not have said "never." That's implying that you were even close with that advice. The real world difference in safety for a GFCI outlet vs. breaker is probably about zero (although, I don't know the failure rate of the breakers. In lightning prone areas, the failure rate of GFCI outlets is significant, hence the "test monthly." AFAIK, a "fail off" has been invented, though I don't know if it's made it to market.)

But, Let's keep it nice and simple for the viewers: does an ungrounded GFCI protect a person just as well as a grounded GFCI? The NEC seems to think, "Yes." Mike Holt seems to say "yes." That's a lot different than "never" or even "almost never."

You are right though - in the case of a GFCI outlet without a ground, and in which there is no neutral upstream of the GFCI, you're probably better protected by a GFCI breaker. However, (in my opinion), having both things happen - contact with an energized circuit, with a broken neutral - incredibly unlikely. And, given the difference in cost, probably not worth it. In fact, the NEC seems to agree that it's a highly unlikely situation, as they have failed to update requirements for GFCIs to have open neutral protection. BUT, they have updated portable GFCI requirements to HAVE open neutral protection. I can't think of anyone who would claim the NEC isn't careful enough, especially in regard to household wiring. The open neutral protection on extension cords used at work sites is now an OSHA requirement, afaik. (a temporary GFCI breaker in a panel solves this.)

And, to add to the thread,
another way you can be electrocuted despite a GFCI: not being grounded - i.e. grabbing both the hot and neutral while not standing in a puddle/touching a faucet/whatever, then flipping the switch on.

Mea culpa, I blew it completely. I had it in my mind that ground fault circuit interrupters for protection of personnel, like those for protection of equipment, had a line voltage solenoid, and that the solenoid was integral to its ability to trip within a quarter cycle. They do not; whether receptacles or breakers, the solenoid is operated only with the air ground circuit. That stuck in my mind and I went back and checked it in my electrician's handbook. I also asked one of the guys who took the 1994 course with me and he remembered that the recommendation for the circuit breaker over the receptacle had nothing to do with personnel safety, it was because the breaker also protected the wiring against a short which might start a fire.

Doubly embarrassing because not only do I do this for a living, I've had not one but TWO courses on GFP/GFCI protection, the first a week long course on both (centering on connecting our equipment in buildings with ungrounded electrical systems) and the second a one-day course on GFP/GFCI protection in old buildings which do not have grounded branch circuits. Total brain fart.