"Neo Noir" movies

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
19,943
14,213
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@DigDog mentioned the genre in the movie review thread and I don't want to derail the thread with a potential discussion so I've started this thread.

I haven't the foggiest idea what "Neo Noir" is, I thought a quick search might help, but when I read this page I'm completely at a loss:


I went one further and had a quick read on wikipedia about "Film Noir":

wiki said:
Film noir (/nwɑːr/; French: [film nwaʁ]) is a style of Hollywood crime dramas that emphasizes cynical attitudes and motivations.

It reminds me of the quote out of "Girl, Interrupted" where the (barely an adult female) protagonist is reading the definition of the condition she's been diagnosed with :

"Borderline Personality Disorder: An instability of self-image, relationships and mood. Uncertainty about goals. Impulsive in activities that are self-damaging such as casual sex. Social contrariness and a generally pessimistic attitude are often observed." "Well, that's me!" "That's everybody."
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,253
2,716
126
well you look at what was there before Noir, you look at what needed to change to make film into Noir, and now you know how to tell if something has been made into a Neo-Noir.

I agree that the ones you listed are all Neo-Noirs. Blade Runner is absolutely a noir, he's a private investigator, there's a dame, he's got a trenchcoat, the ambient is full of shadows. It's so.much. a noir, the guy could be Humphrey Bogart and it wouldn't make it more Noir. And the new Blade Runner was't too far from that, i adore the original so obviously i would have problems with 2049, but regardless even if by imitation, it's still a noir.

And The Crow and Sin City, well, these are, not even "ripoffs of Noir", they are homages. One element of Noir is that, it's dark. It's got a lot of shadows. The style is both in the story, and in the visuals. Seven absolutely is a Noir.

One of my absolute favourite Noir is modern enough that could be called a Neo-Noir, Devil In A Blue Dress - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112857/reference/
Denzel Washington and Don Cheadle playing the absolutely wonderful character of Mouse.

As for "Neo", i think anything that is far enough in time from the original Noir, can be called Neo-Noir.

As for the list, i'm not crazy about it, but i also don't completely dismiss it.

Fargo doesn't have the visual style, but the story does fit.
Pulp Fiction (praise be the name) fits the visual style .. to a point .. but the themes are often too aloof. Noir is about the fallacy of human nature, how we are all damned by our own sins, the rot and corruption isn't just around us, it's in us, it's us.

Casablanca is not on the list. Really.
While the heroes win, at the end of Casablanca, because they manage to get Laszlo out, him, Bogart, doesn't win. He wants Ilsa, but he can't have her. Not because he can't take her, but because he's damned by his own heroism. Because in Film Noir, it doesn't matter if you are good or are bad, you still always lose.

Oldboy is very Noir.

What can i say, it's one of my favourite styles, i'm happy when more Noir are made.

************************************

i need to preface that, sometimes i feel like this guy

but my understanding is that the word "black" was associated with all things criminal, because of what we call Cronaca Nera. Nino Frank was, after all, an italian. European newpapers would print obituaries with a wide, black band at the top - still common today in many countries, just like black is a funeral color almost worldwide, and like black armbands are a symbol of mourning - from whence the newspapers took that, given how black was associated with death, the section of the newspaper that dealt with crime, was the "black chronicle". I don't mean a front-page bank robbery, but just "random guy found shot in an alley", at the back of the paper. And only people with seedy interests read that part.
The same way that the french publisher that did the Serie Noir went with black because black is the color that you use for that type of crime. Throw in that the protagonist needs a reason to be involved to care about the crime, and you got either policeman, private investigator or person personally scorned. And that you can't figure out everything on the first page, so you need the protagonist to see enough, but not everything - nighttime scenes. And you know what readers are buying your product, so you give them more of what they want, tragic endings, loss, misery.
Pulp and Noir are brothers from other mothers. I would say that Pulp was more varied because the point was to create schlock that was specifically targeted at a sector of the reader ship (another reason why i look down on people who read stuff like the Star Wars novels, @igor_kavinski ), but it was the forge where Noir was created.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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(another reason why i look down on people who read stuff like the Star Wars novels, @igor_kavinski )
Have you read any of them?

Read Wraith Squadron and Starfighters of Adumar and if you still think they aren't fun and wouldn't be fun in live action form, fine. Your imagination is just pre-occupied with other stuff

Back on topic, Max Payne the movie is neo-noir.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,253
2,716
126
Have you read any of them?
My point isn't coming across.

When the publisher decides that they want yet another Star Wars novel (or, you know, ANY of a million brands, be it Warhammer 40k, or whatever) they put down a rough idea of what they want to add to the canon, and then they call a writer. And the writer might be a good writer, so the book winds up being good. But the product at the very start is designed to appeal to .. "hit the spot". To give you the most base version of what you crave. To fill in after others, to piggyback on a greater work. During the *creative* process, they make it specifically for you. They don't make it because a writer has got something to say, they don't write it because of inspiration, or art - they write it to make a buck out of the fact that something in that particular world has hooked you.

So when it's a 40k novel, it's all about Space Marines. For Star Wars, it's about lightsabers, and The Force. The first Star Wars film isn't fucking about THE FORCE, it's about the journey of the hero, it's about becoming the best you can be, learning to trust your own inner power.

Reading a Star Wars novel is like buying the Ghostbusters lunch box. I loved the film .. but what's the lunch box gotta do with it? Just because it's got Slimer and the Ghostbusters logo on it?? I mean sure, i do like Slimer, i do like the logo, but it's not JUST about those thing.

Idk, maybe i'm missing out on some Randevouz-With-Rama level masterpieces, but whenever i see any such product i can't but imagine some fat JJ-Jameson-looking NYC guy saying "these schmucks will buy ANYTHING with X-Men on it!".

Maybe it's just that you're younger and you didn't see the 80s where we had to brand everything with the flavour of the day, Aliens cereal, Superman bedsheets, Cabbage Patch Dolls backpacks, everything.
 
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Idk, maybe i'm missing out on some Randevouz-With-Rama level masterpieces, but whenever i see any such product i can't but imagine some fat JJ-Jameson-looking NYC guy saying "these schmucks will buy ANYTHING with X-Men on it!".
I get your point but I'm not a rabid Star Wars fan. I did not like the movie Solo. The new SW trilogy isn't great but has enough Star Wars in it to be passable. The Mandalorian was much better. Ahsoka was decent too (it had Thrawn who, while not exactly as I had imagined, was ok). I haven't read all the SW novels and I didn't like all of the ones I read. One was written really badly, with language meant to be read to 5 year olds as a bedtime story or whatever.

Point is, you are imagining me to be a SW groupie or something. I'm not. If I had the opportunity to shake hands with any of the SW actors, I would probably pass, unless they came to me

I'm not into awful "waste of time" stuff. I have a really short attention span (especially now that I'm much older). Things have to be good to catch my fancy. So what I describe as good has got to be at least a 5/10 for the common man unless they are not into movies and stories. I'm probably not going to like something that is widely panned by almost everyone (unless there are memorable scenes).
 
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Or maybe my idea of Noir is "moody dude in a trenchcoat".
Ninth Gate is neo-noir.

Another one I really loved was this old movie where the wife of a rich guy tries to seduce the investigator or detective to throw him off the case and he has no idea that she is involved knee deep in the mess.

The series Sugar starring Colin Farrell is neo-noir. There's just something people love about a lone investigator. I think it's because it's the most realistic form of a hero you can be, without having superpowers. Since all the investigator has is his wits, people fancy imagining themselves solving crimes using their brains too I guess and this is the draw for them. Most normal people want to be the best version of themselves and what could be better than a crime fighting justice seeker?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
19,943
14,213
136
I get film noir as a genre. I just think that - certainly the IMDB examples of neo noir - are like "anything that's remotely moody / gritty / features corruption and not made in the forties = neo noir", constitutes a bullshit definition. 'Batman Begins' and 'The Dark Knight' tick all of those boxes, who knows whether someone would call it neo noir.

If a film is a bit noir-ish, I would just say that.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,901
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I get film noir as a genre. I just think that - certainly the IMDB examples of neo noir - are like "anything that's remotely moody / gritty / features corruption and not made in the forties = neo noir", constitutes a bullshit definition. 'Batman Begins' and 'The Dark Knight' tick all of those boxes, who knows whether someone would call it neo noir.

If a film is a bit noir-ish, I would just say that.

-I mean, given OG Batman was literally a lone detective that had to throw a punch every once in a while, it's not a huge stretch to suggest Batman is Neo-Noir.

Certainly has the trappings, too heavy on the action nowadays tho.
 
Reactions: igor_kavinski
Jul 27, 2020
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'Batman Begins' and 'The Dark Knight' tick all of those boxes, who knows whether someone would call it neo noir.
I'm gonna give away the plot to my magnum opus Batman movie because I don't see how I could get it made (unless DigDog tries helping to finance it with the help of some Italian billionaire...):

We have this detective working a really confusing mess of a crime case. It's noir at its most gritty and gripping. We kinda get hints that this detective could be Batman. But around the one third mark of the movie, we see the detective standing outside a magnificently expansive mansion. The door is opened by the butler, he goes into the billionaire's study and he sees Bruce Wayne! The audience gasps. What???? The detective isn't Bruce Wayne??? Turns out that Bruce has been investigating the same thing using his tech and connections or whatever. But he's not any closer than the detective to solving the mystery.

They team up against the bad guy (some massively evil masked villain with a penchant for stroking cats, sprinkling dark chocolate dust on boobies and licking it off). In the final third of the movie, we find out that in this version of Batman, Bruce Wayne is NOT Batman! There isn't time left to explore anything more about Batman's origins so the three of them team up in a grand finale, working like a tactical squad to execute the hordes of baddies and get to the masked villain. What happens next, I will leave it to your imagination but my version is beyond awesome!
 

Shmee

Memory & Storage, Graphics Cards Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 13, 2008
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How about the movie Dark City? That was very interesting IMO, with a twist of sci-fi/fantasy.

Also, RE Starwars, I like it but I like the old lore/canon/timeline. Before the Disney retcon. Before the dark ages.

One of the most interesting parts of all it is all the different factions and sub factions throughout the galaxy, particularly after the Emperor's first death at Endor, causing the Empire to splinter into rival warlord factions. A great way to enjoy this isn't just the old books or wookiepedia etc, but also Empire at War mods such as Thrawn's Revenge and other post-Endor galactic conquest mods. This really adds a lot of new dynamics to the game/SW lore.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,253
2,716
126
How about the movie Dark City?
i mean, Noir is just a feeling, a style. Your film doesnt have to be 100% Noir to fit in the definition. I do think Dark City is a very good example for a Noir-inspired film, and so i'm happy to classify it as Neo-Noir. It doesn't matter that the ending has a hero and a people are happy, when the first 70% of the film is almost a clone of Noir photography. And you wanna tell me Jennifer Connelly isn't a Dame? Yeah naw, Dark City totally is a Noir.
 
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