Netflix - Making a Murderer

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Feb 10, 2000
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So I read 14 pages of the first interrogation, do you want me to read everything? And what in particular you want me to pay attention to? Because it's the same thing... The same routine by Fassbender and Wiegert.

You should read whatever you feel you need to. To me the March 1 interview is most probative. As I posted earlier, there are a number of areas in which he made admissions without prompting that were both incriminating and corroborated by physical evidence, and in other places he refused to admit to things (particularly the shooting) despite their clear desire that he do so. Reading that really changed my view of whether he might be guilty.
 
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Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,354
3,423
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You should read whatever you feel you need to. To me the March 1 interview is most probative. As I posted earlier, there are a number of areas in which he made admissions without prompting that were both incriminating and corroborated by physical evidence, and in other places he refused to admit to things (particularly the shooting) despite their clear desire that he do so. Reading that really changed my view of whether he might be guilty.
Maybe if you gave us a couple of specific examples. I started reading the transcript just scanning for Dassey's responses and they were all virtually one line where he agreed (or disagreed) with the investigators. So unless he gets a lot more chatty later on, which would be surprising, I'm not sure how it was even possible for him to give any incriminating responses, except in reply to a leading question.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Maybe if you gave us a couple of specific examples. I started reading the transcript just scanning for Dassey's responses and they were all virtually one line where he agreed (or disagreed) with the investigators. So unless he gets a lot more chatty later on, which would be surprising, I'm not sure how it was even possible for him to give any incriminating responses, except in reply to a leading question.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37925713&postcount=124
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
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The problem I have with him putting her body inside the car while in the garage is that it means he has to have killed her somewhere IN THE HOUSE, or IN THE GARAGE. Then proceed to clean all the blood up from the killing, while leaving the bullet fragment that supposedly killed her. Then, dragged her corpse into the bedroom, chain her up, then dragged it to the garage and then have his retarded cousin come over to help burn the body that the kid repeatedly said wasn't present in the pit, despite the lead on by Fassbender and Wiegert... All the while leaving the door of his garage opened, according to Branden's "testimony".

So, where did he kill her? How? With what? When?

Edit: let's say that then Avery killed her alone, then why was Brendan charged with anything? Because according to his "testimony", he came over to help AFTER all of this has happened and his story wasn't even consistent based on the feeding.
 
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Feb 10, 2000
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The problem I have with him putting her body inside the car while in the garage is that it means he has to have killed her somewhere IN THE HOUSE, or IN THE GARAGE. Then proceed to clean all the blood up from the killing, while leaving the bullet fragment that supposedly killed her. Then, dragged her corpse into the bedroom, chain her up, then dragged it to the garage and then have his retarded cousin come over to help burn the body that the kid repeatedly said wasn't present in the pit, despite the lead on by Fassbender and Wiegert... All the while leaving the door of his garage opened, according to Branden's "testimony".

So, where did he kill her? How? With what? When?

That is not the narrative described by Brendan. For purposes of discussion, at least, consider what he says happened. They rape Teresa in the house, cut her throat and stab her, then take her to the garage, where Avery shoots her several times to ensure she is dead. They put the body in the cargo area of the RAV4, before Avery decides, instead, to burn her in the fire pit. They then put her in the fire pit and burn her, using some tires in the fire to mask the smell and create more heat. They also burn the sheets (including, at least potentially, a rubber mattress pad that might have prevented seepage into the mattress) and Avery's clothes. Avery then uses a shovel to break up the bones. They use bleach to clean the blood off the garage floor (and, keep in mind, there probably wouldn't be much of it, since she was very likely dead by the time she was brought into the garage).

The only part of that narrative that sounds at all far-fetched to me is the absence of blood evidence in the trailer. I don't have expertise in that area, but would certainly have expected there to be blood there. I don't know whether it's possible to have committed a murder of this type, with Teresa bound to the bed, without blood escaping the immediate area of the bed. As I said, I would think a rubber or plastic mattress pad would have stopped it seeping through to the mattress, but I don't know if there would have been significant blood outside of the bed if Brendan's account were accurate.
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
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Let's not forget that Brendan is pretty much irrelevant to the verdict against Steven. The jury never heard any of that evidence. However the jury pool was no doubt tainted by it. That alone should have been grounds for an appeal. Moving it one county over had no practical effect.

I'll be surprised if a federal court doesn't overturn the verdict and get Avery a new trial.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
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That is not the narrative described by Brendan. For purposes of discussion, at least, consider what he says happened. They rape Teresa in the house, cut her throat and stab her, then take her to the garage, where Avery shoots her several times to ensure she is dead. They put the body in the cargo area of the RAV4, before Avery decides, instead, to burn her in the fire pit. They then put her in the fire pit and burn her, using some tires in the fire to mask the smell and create more heat. They also burn the sheets (including, at least potentially, a rubber mattress pad that might have prevented seepage into the mattress) and Avery's clothes. Avery then uses a shovel to break up the bones. They use bleach to clean the blood off the garage floor (and, keep in mind, there probably wouldn't be much of it, since she was very likely dead by the time she was brought into the garage).

The only part of that narrative that sounds at all far-fetched to me is the absence of blood evidence in the trailer. I don't have expertise in that area, but would certainly have expected there to be blood there. I don't know whether it's possible to have committed a murder of this type, with Teresa bound to the bed, without blood escaping the immediate area of the bed. As I said, I would think a rubber or plastic mattress pad would have stopped it seeping through to the mattress, but I don't know if there would have been significant blood outside of the bed if Brendan's account were accurate.
If you were a DA, would you have prosecuted Avery based on Brendan's testimony?
 
Feb 10, 2000
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If you were a DA, would you have prosecuted Avery based on Brendan's testimony?

Let's assume the DA was not aware of any evidence tampering, and just had the evidence presented to him (including, among other things, the evidence identified in the series, as well as the fact that Avery had been semi-stalking Halbach, and had bought handcuffs and leg irons within weeks of the murders). On those facts I would think any competent DA would have brought a murder case, with or without the allegations made by Brendan.

Certainly Brendan's allegations, which were largely corroborated by the evidence (including not only the bullet but the presence of Steven Avery's sweat DNA on the RAV4's under-the-hood latch, which was only identified after Brendan stated that Avery had opened the hood to disconnect the battery), would have increased my resolve to bring a case.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
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Let's assume the DA was not aware of any evidence tampering, and just had the evidence presented to him (including, among other things, the evidence identified in the series, as well as the fact that Avery had been semi-stalking Halbach, and had bought handcuffs and leg irons within weeks of the murders). On those facts I would think any competent DA would have brought a murder case, with or without the allegations made by Brendan.

Certainly Brendan's allegations, which were largely corroborated by the evidence (including not only the bullet but the presence of Steven Avery's sweat DNA on the RAV4's under-the-hood latch, which was only identified after Brendan stated that Avery had opened the hood to disconnect the battery), would have increased my resolve to bring a case.

Brendan's testimony, as I read it and in the same chronological order it was presented:

Brendan was getting mail, and heard screaming because you know, it's always better to let a victim who you're about to rape and murder scream as loud as they want so that only a retarded kid nephew can hear and no one else from down the block. Gags are just for sissies.
So of course he hear screaming, because you know, the door was opened
They drank soda
Brendan then went into the room and raped Teresa, sorry, put his penis in her vagina
Then they watched TV
Then Avery stabbed her once in the stomach, then choked her til she was unconcious
Wait, she was still handcuffed to the bed, but Brendan helped Avery tied her up anyways because apparently she was kicking after being stabbed and choked
Then he cut some of her hair off, and set it on a counter
Then Avery told Brendan to cut her throat
Then they uncuffed her, and tied her up
Then they took her outside of the garage where Avery shot her in the head
Or was it Brendan that shot her? "Where did you shoot her?"
Supposedly, Brendan also shot her in the stomach
Wait, he didn't shoot anyone... phew...
Wait, Brendan shot her three times
Brendan helped Avery tied up Teresa's feet, because she was kicking
No wait, she was dead when they tied her up
Then, they took her out to the side of the house
Then, Avery shot her in the head
Or was it Brendan that shot her in the head three times?
Anyways, then, they tossed her in the fire, and covered it with tires and branches
But not before they dragged her into the garage, where Avery put her inside her RAV4 and he may or may not have shot here there
Or, she may have been laying on the garage floor, where he shot her 10 times
Meanwhile, no one else heard any shots
The fire was already burning before Brendan got there, because apparently Avery was planning on burning the body before killing her
Or did he wanted to put her body in the RAV4 to take it to the pit and throw in the water? So confusing...
Wait, now she's shot IN the garage
Wait, in the truck
No, in the garage, then put in the truck
Avery shot her ten times, while she was on the garage floor
Then Avery abandoned dumping her and tossed her body in the fire instead
They moved the body from the garage to the fire by using a creeper
...
That's what you're going with? So let's assume that it's all true, and all that happened, do you know how many places Teresa's DNA would end up on?
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
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Let's assume the DA was not aware of any evidence tampering, and just had the evidence presented to him (including, among other things, the evidence identified in the series, as well as the fact that Avery had been semi-stalking Halbach, and had bought handcuffs and leg irons within weeks of the murders). On those facts I would think any competent DA would have brought a murder case, with or without the allegations made by Brendan.

Certainly Brendan's allegations, which were largely corroborated by the evidence (including not only the bullet but the presence of Steven Avery's sweat DNA on the RAV4's under-the-hood latch, which was only identified after Brendan stated that Avery had opened the hood to disconnect the battery), would have increased my resolve to bring a case.

...
Fassbender: OK what else did he do, he did something else, you need to tell us what he did, after that car is parked there. It's extremely important. Before you guys leave that car

Brendan: That he left the gun in the car

Fassbender: That's not what I'm thinking about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car

Brendan: I don't know.

Fassbender: OK. Did he, did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood or anything like that? To do something to that car?

Brendan: Yeah

Fassbender: What was that?

Wiegert: What did he do, Brendan?

Wiegert: It's OK, what did he do?

Fassbender: What did he do under the hood, if that's what he did?

Brendan: I don't know what he did, but I know he went under.

Fassbender: He did raise the hood? You remember that?

Brendan: Yeah.

....
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,354
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...
Fassbender: OK what else did he do, he did something else, you need to tell us what he did, after that car is parked there. It's extremely important. Before you guys leave that car

Brendan: That he left the gun in the car

Fassbender: That's not what I'm thinking about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car

Brendan: I don't know.

Fassbender: OK. Did he, did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood or anything like that? To do something to that car?

Brendan: Yeah

Fassbender: What was that?

Wiegert: What did he do, Brendan?

Wiegert: It's OK, what did he do?

Fassbender: What did he do under the hood, if that's what he did?

Brendan: I don't know what he did, but I know he went under.

Fassbender: He did raise the hood? You remember that?

Brendan: Yeah.

....
That's a great example. I think that even if Brendan revealed other information without obvious prompting, we only know what's in the transcripts. I wouldn't put it past these guys to have talked to Brendan extensively off camera. And he is much more chatty in the police station transcript than the high school. I think they probably coached him between the two.
 

BeeBoop

Golden Member
Feb 5, 2013
1,677
0
0
This is crazy! The documentary is so good that it makes you think. What I want to see is if anonymous really does have some records helping Steven and Brandon. It was supposed to be released yesterday. Maybe they are bluffing. Would be awesome to expose corruption though. One hell of a story.
 

BeeBoop

Golden Member
Feb 5, 2013
1,677
0
0
I'm told they're everywhere

I guess they really had nothing or they found something that proved that he actually did commit those crimes. Lots of unanswered questions but for some reason when I look at the guy, I just feel that he's guilty based on looks alone.


The documentary is obviously leaving out a lot of stuff, like how Steven use to molest Brandon. See the link below. Brandon however, shouldn't have gone away for such a long time. Brandon's stupidity got the best of him.
http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
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I love all the apologist around here. Imagine your life at risk with these dumb fucks who plant evidence and judges that don't give a shit. I'd love to hear your story then.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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This is crazy! The documentary is so good that it makes you think. What I want to see is if anonymous really does have some records helping Steven and Brandon. It was supposed to be released yesterday. Maybe they are bluffing. Would be awesome to expose corruption though. One hell of a story.

If Anonymous is being responsible, they would be making sure that there is enough beef to get a retrial. If it is just some minor crap that is already known it won't cause a retrial and they'll keep the info for later.

So, would proof of conspiracy on the county employees be good enough for a retrial?
 
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Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
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Avery needed Johnnie Cochran. This case was bullshit. I definitely feel there was reasonable doubt.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
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Let's assume the DA was not aware of any evidence tampering, and just had the evidence presented to him (including, among other things, the evidence identified in the series, as well as the fact that Avery had been semi-stalking Halbach, and had bought handcuffs and leg irons within weeks of the murders). On those facts I would think any competent DA would have brought a murder case, with or without the allegations made by Brendan.

Certainly Brendan's allegations, which were largely corroborated by the evidence (including not only the bullet but the presence of Steven Avery's sweat DNA on the RAV4's under-the-hood latch, which was only identified after Brendan stated that Avery had opened the hood to disconnect the battery), would have increased my resolve to bring a case.
Well that just hows the system is wrong then.

Its perfectly possible SA and Brendan did it but Brendans testimony looks like crap to me. I have done plenty interview but if thats the way police does it its not about getting the truth but getting "results"; that is a narrative that fits the hypothesis. Its not the slightest scientific.

Video filming is step one minor step. But the entire interview job needs to be far more specialized and professional. The retrieval of information like seen here gives garbage.

Garbage in garbage out.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
Well that just hows the system is wrong then.

Its perfectly possible SA and Brendan did it but Brendans testimony looks like crap to me. I have done plenty interview but if thats the way police does it its not about getting the truth but getting "results"; that is a narrative that fits the hypothesis. Its not the slightest scientific.

Video filming is step one minor step. But the entire interview job needs to be far more specialized and professional. The retrieval of information like seen here gives garbage.

Garbage in garbage out.

This is how prosecution works. Prosecution is about getting a conviction at all costs, not determining if the person is innocent. Judges, Sheriffs, the feds, do whatever they can to get someone to confess. They want a high and quick conviction rate. This is why all these cases come out years later of false imprisonment. They hide evidence that would exonerate the defendant just so they can win their case. I personally think anyone found of doing that should be convicted of doing that themselves and thrown out of the law system and imprisoned.

Innocent until proven guilty is a charade. We are all guilty until we can prove otherwise.
 
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Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,354
3,423
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This is how prosecution works. Prosecution is about getting a conviction at all costs, not determining if the person is innocent. Judges, Sheriffs, the feds, do whatever they can to get someone to confess. They want a high and quick conviction rate. This is why all these cases come out years later of false imprisonment. They hide evidence that would exonerate the defendant just so they can win their case. I personally think anyone found of doing that should be convicted of doing that themselves and thrown out of the law system and imprisoned.

Innocent until proven guilty is a charade. We are all guilty until we can prove otherwise.
This is why if you're ever arrested, the first, second and third words out of your mouth are "lawyer." Even if you happen to be a lawyer, 'I . . . want . . . a . . . lawyer.' If the cops arrest you, as far as they're concerned, you're guilty and nothing you say is going to change their mind, so the only winning move is to not play the game.
 

CraKaJaX

Lifer
Dec 26, 2004
11,905
148
101
I finished the entire series this weekend. It's a very well done series (it sure as hell kept me glued) and definitely an eye-opener. My thoughts:

First off - I'm glad that the asshole of a man Kratz got what he did. This guy was a complete waste of being in the court room. The way he presented himself in court was absolutely embarrassing compared to Strang and Buting, who were complete gentlemen with a very strong defense case. Obviously as a frame job, they had their backs against the wall the entire time and they still made Kratz look like an idiot.

It seemed to me that every person that the prosecuting team called as a witness or as an expert was just full of complete shit. IE - The lady who examined the bullet for DNA. Oh my god, if that face and those eyes don't scream "I'm lying" I don't know what does. Lenk is another one of these people. As soon as the defense brings up a question to them, they don't respond with a simple "yes" or "no" .. they dance around the bush by saying "well.... I think maybe so?" and then the defense hands them paperwork to TELL them what they said. The defense then re-asks the question, and they STILL don't say "yes, I said that." but more along the lines of "I guess that's what I said." This just made me so angry. If you hand me a piece of paper that I SIGNED myself saying I said ------ on this day and I am asked if this is what I said - the answer is YES. I said that. Apparently in the court of law, this goes right out the window.

The evidence in this case was so out of control in the defense's case that it seemed no contest. I found myself yelling at the TV quite a bit. Lack of blood spatter ANYWHERE, the key having only Avery's DNA and not Teresa's, the bullet in the garage, the fact that the car was found within ~30 mins on a 40 acre plot of land with thousands of cars and that the lady who found it was the only one with a camera, etc. What a crock of shit. It's very sad to see someone with a family business get framed because he is on a road to collect big bucks in a case against the town not for some horseshit reason, but because THEY fucked up the FIRST TIME. Not to mention they have to drag in a less-than-average kid into the equation. I don't even want to get started about Dassey and how they initially questioned him - all of this should have been thrown out.

I'm glad that after watching and reading some stuff online, that a lot of viewers have sent hate mail to the prosecuting team. Each and every one of them should be thrown behind fucking bars. Scum of the earth.
 
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