NEW 64bit-Semprons (S754)

[Braveheart77]

Does anybody knows anything about the new stepping E6 Semprons socket 754? I've been told that they support both SSE3 and 64bit and there are 128kb and 256kb cache variants.

I't seems that they are extremely well overclockers and allow great performance for people on extreme budget (like me).

 

[Fox5]

Thing is though, they have very low cache, and 754 has much slower memory performance(single channel + just can't overclock as high) than 939, so in the end they can end up way crippled due to that lack of cache. Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.(XP-M's reach prescott levels easily)

 

[Braveheart77]

I saw on some forums that A64/Semprons aren't so sensitive to memory bandwith/cache (save on some specific tests) as opposed to Pentium4s. Also saw on xbitlabs that new semprons (stepping E3 and E6) overclock fairly well up to 2500/2700mhz outperforming even a64 3500/3800 that way.

The point is that I must replace my XP2000/KT400 cpu/mobo combo (because mobo failure) and I'm on a extreme budget (btw prices of computer parts are really expensive here in argentina). So I'm looking for the best way to invest my money.

The CPU/Mobo will be paired with 2x512Mb PC3200 Kingston modules and an ATI Radeon 9800Pro 128MB card.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Fox5
Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.

You can get a basic NF3/AGP overclockable mobo with lowest end Sempron for about $130, or add $20-30 more for NF4/PCI-E overclockable mobo. I think that's a good alternative to an XP mobile. If you were replacing a dead board or CPU, sell the working part of it and use the money towards the newer platform (if you are on severe budget and coming from something older, ignore everyone who says s754 sucks/outdated).

If you have a few more dollars to play with you can get an overclockable s939 platform with CPU for maybe $220+.

If you aren't overclocking, look for a Fry's deal.

 

[Zap]

Nevermind about the "Fry's deal" comment. Don't think there's any in Argentina.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: Fox5
Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.

You can get a basic NF3/AGP overclockable mobo with lowest end Sempron for about $130, or add $20-30 more for NF4/PCI-E overclockable mobo. I think that's a good alternative to an XP mobile. If you were replacing a dead board or CPU, sell the working part of it and use the money towards the newer platform (if you are on severe budget and coming from something older, ignore everyone who says s754 sucks/outdated).

If you have a few more dollars to play with you can get an overclockable s939 platform with CPU for maybe $220+.

If you aren't overclocking, look for a Fry's deal.

AXP-M motherboard is around $50, cpu is around maybe $80, if you can still find it.
Sempron is around $80 at lowest, motherbaords are also around $80 starting out. You're not going to overclock a low end sempron very high though without one of the pci-e chipsets, so if you're keeping an AGP video card, AXP-M may be higher performance in the end.(unlocked multiplier versus nforce3 250 boards which often max out at around 230fsb)

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: Fox5
Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.

You can get a basic NF3/AGP overclockable mobo with lowest end Sempron for about $130, or add $20-30 more for NF4/PCI-E overclockable mobo. I think that's a good alternative to an XP mobile. If you were replacing a dead board or CPU, sell the working part of it and use the money towards the newer platform (if you are on severe budget and coming from something older, ignore everyone who says s754 sucks/outdated).

If you have a few more dollars to play with you can get an overclockable s939 platform with CPU for maybe $220+.

If you aren't overclocking, look for a Fry's deal.

AXP-M motherboard is around $50, cpu is around maybe $80, if you can still find it.
Sempron is around $80 at lowest, motherbaords are also around $80 starting out. You're not going to overclock a low end sempron very high though without one of the pci-e chipsets, so if you're keeping an AGP video card, AXP-M may be higher performance in the end.(unlocked multiplier versus nforce3 250 boards which often max out at around 230fsb)

Fox, you're spreading misinformation. These semprons are much better in p/p than XP-Ms. Cache and memory bandwidth make very little difference on a K8 core as compared to a K7 (AXP) core. The lack of dual channel memory will for most purposes only result in a 1-5% performance loss compared to a s939 chip, and 256kb of cache will only be 1-5% slower than a 512kb A64. That's going to be about 2-10% slower than a s939 Athlon 64, 10% if you're doing something memory intensive.

Let's compare the K8 to the K7 here. Starting at page 10, follow the next several pages of benchmarks, and you'll notice a general trend. In most non gaming situations, the A64 3200+ @ 2ghz is ~12% faster than a 2.2ghz AXP 3200+. In games, it is on average about 25% faster with a 200mhz clock deficit. Keep in mind that I'm also talking about the s754 A64 chips here, so there's no dual channel 1-5% advantage.

To approximate, that means that a s754 Sempron will be about 10% faster than an AXP, even with a 200mhz deficit. If they were both running at 2.2, the Sempron would probably be about 12-13% faster, and then gaming of course would be on average close to 25% faster.

Your XP-M combo is $50 for the mobo and $80 for the chip. At this price, you are looking at the 2500+ model, which will do about 2.4 safely. A Sempy 2800+ combined with a Chaintech VNF-250 will be about $75 + $55 = $130, same price as your XP-M combo.

Now, at the same price, with the Sempron you're getting about 12% more performance at the same clock speed, and about 25% more in most games. You also get Cool'N'Quiet, newer tech, SSE3, and now 64bit.

How's the overclocking? Pretty damn good. Many 2800+ chips hit 2.4 stock, which is pretty nice. Mine hit 2.7 on air. There's no point in getting XP-Ms any longer. Now, not everyone's mobo can hit 300HTT, but I know the Epox 8KDA3j and Chaintech are capable. The DFI NF3 s754 will go beyond, but that is $50 more (which I would actually consider it worth it, to be able to reach 2.6-2.7 with the chip). Or, you could just buy the 3100+ model with a better multiplier of 9, which would be less than the $50 for taking the DFI route. That way your Chaintech and Epox should be able to get 2.6 out of it.

 

[Hacp]

Single channel + just cant overclock as high? Seems like you have very limited knowledge about semprons. Semprons can overclock pretty well, and since they are based on the new E6 stepping, they will overclock almost as much as 939 venices. Also, the Semprons do not need as much cache as the Prescotts do, so 256 cache isn't THAT much of a pitfall. The main problem with the Semprons is the single channel memory. For 754 AMD processors, the general rule was that you had to move down 200 MHZ to make up for the dual channelness.

A Sempron overclocked to 2.5 ghz (not that far off as some can get 2.7+) will work at around the speeds of a 2.1-2.2 venice in the 939 platform. That defenetly beats any XP processor out there.

Ow ya, a good mobo like the Epox 250GB is 76 dollars. This mobo can go to 300 HTT no problem, and has a AGP/PCI lock too.

 

[Icopoli]

Question for the smart people, I have a s754 3000+ Newcastle @ 2.35ghz, would it be beneficial to get a Semp 2800 or 3000 and OC the hell out of it?

 

[Hacp]

To that, the answer=no. The extra 256 Mb of cache will make up the difference between 2.35 and whatever amount of clock speed you get from the Sempron. Usually, you get around 2.5 GHZ, which will perform very similarly to your 2.35 GHZ Newcastle. Not worth the 76 bucks for the 2800+.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Single channel + just cant overclock as high? Seems like you have very limited knowledge about semprons. Semprons can overclock pretty well, and since they are based on the new E6 stepping, they will overclock almost as much as 939 venices. Also, the Semprons do not need as much cache as the Prescotts do, so 256 cache isn't THAT much of a pitfall. The main problem with the Semprons is the single channel memory. For 754 AMD processors, the general rule was that you had to move down 200 MHZ to make up for the dual channelness.

A Sempron overclocked to 2.5 ghz (not that far off as some can get 2.7+) will work at around the speeds of a 2.1-2.2 venice in the 939 platform. That defenetly beats any XP processor out there.

Ow ya, a good mobo like the Epox 250GB is 76 dollars. This mobo can go to 300 HTT no problem, and has a AGP/PCI lock too.

No way, a 2.5 Sempron would be more like a 2.3 Venice. A Sempron 3100+ was 1-5% slower than a s754 2800+ (same mhz), and lost 1-5% performance from lack of dual channel. Again, you'll be seeing 2-10% performance loss. If clockspeed were to give a linear increase in speed (it rarely does), then you would be 10% behind a Venice, or require 200mhz more to equal a Venice. Meaning, your Sempron @ 2.5 would be closer to a 2.3 Venice in a memory bandwidth limited scenario, and much more closer to a 2.4 Venice in most other situations.

 

[Hacp]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/sempron-3100e_8.html

2.68GHZ is around a 2.4 GHZ Venice in Games. In other applications, the pure clock speeds matter more. (Leaves even a sandiego in the dust )When I meant performance, I meant performance in games .

Keep in mind that this is using 1-1 memory at ddr600. If you go down to DDR 400 and OC by the ram divider, then your performance will decrease even more. I think that the benchies that favor the Sempron would even out with the 3800+ and 4000+, and the games would be a little more in favor of the 3800+.

 

[charloscarlies]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Ow ya, a good mobo like the Epox 250GB is 76 dollars. This mobo can go to 300 HTT no problem, and has a AGP/PCI lock too.

I have gone through two Epox 8KDA3's and would not recommend them anymore. You can't go wrong with the Chaintech VNF3-250. This board has been rock solid and it's dirt cheap. Does 300 HTT without missing a beat. I just picked up another one at ZZF for $54 w/ free 2nd day air.

$80-100 Sempy + $54 VNF = EXCELLENT price/performance ratio.

 

[Avalon]

On a portion of the Xbit lab benches, the 3800+ is besting the 4000+. What's up with that? Regardless, a 4000+ has 1MB of cache, which would give it even more of a performance edge over the rest. On a lot of tests, the Sempy smokes everything AMD, except the few tests where cache is important (which is where it ties with the 4000+ and 3800+). Definitely not a 400mhz deficit compared to a Venice like you were saying, but closer to 200mhz.

 

[Powermoloch]

I love my sempron it rocks @ 230 mhz. shweet since then, it is comparable (in aquamark) in a setup with a 3200 amd w/ 6800 ultra comparing w/ mines..but anyways ..

 

[mindwreck]

Originally posted by: charloscarlies

Originally posted by: Hacp

Ow ya, a good mobo like the Epox 250GB is 76 dollars. This mobo can go to 300 HTT no problem, and has a AGP/PCI lock too.

I have gone through two Epox 8KDA3's and would not recommend them anymore. You can't go wrong with the Chaintech VNF3-250. This board has been rock solid and it's dirt cheap. Does 300 HTT without missing a beat. I just picked up another one at ZZF for $54 w/ free 2nd day air.

$80-100 Sempy + $54 VNF = EXCELLENT price/performance ratio.

bad luck? my epox can do 330 htt but lowerd it cause i want my cpu to last i bit longer
currently running 8X320=2560

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Fox5
Thing is though, they have very low cache, and 754 has much slower memory performance(single channel + just can't overclock as high) than 939, so in the end they can end up way crippled due to that lack of cache. Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.(XP-M's reach prescott levels easily)

Cache isn't as crucial on the A64 as it is on the P4, the same is true for the dual channel memory, which might make a big differnce for X2 but most definately not that big of a deal for single core A64s.

You've got to be kidding me with the XP-Ms, they're is no way they're as good as you're suggesting. If you're extremely lucky and get one that can breech 2.5GHz...Semprons are a different story, the core improvements and built in memory conroller give it a big advantage, plus it isn't hard to consistently overclock them as high if not higher than XP-Ms.

I see that Avalon has alread mention the things I have, but I decided to repeat them for the truth of the matter.

However there is still a plus the XP-M, and it isn't the CPU and its potential performance when overclocked, its its platform. If you can grab an nForce 2 board with soundstorm then you've got a pretty good HT system going. Otherwise now that Socket A is dead, you'll see less and less support, meaning XP-Ms are harder to find (which you admit yourself) as well as motherboards, good nForce2 with soundstorm that will accept and be able to overclock XP-Ms...last I checked, quality XP-M boards such as the NF7-S aren't $50, but still $80 or so.

 

[Braveheart77]

I thing I will go for the Sempron64. Maybe the new 3100+ (marked as SDA3100AIO3BX) as it comes with 256Kb cache and the new E6 stepping. For comparative sakes one of them costs me around $105 here in argentina while a 3000+ Venice is in the $180 range. For the mother the DFI is a hard to get here. I was thinking of an MSI K8N Neo Platinum (which is at $115 here).

Thanks for the replys.

NOTE: I posted an AWARE on General Hardware forum about old semprons marked as AMD64 compatible being D0 stepping (which doesn't come widh A64 extensions, not even SSE3)...

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Avalon
On a portion of the Xbit lab benches, the 3800+ is besting the 4000+. What's up with that? Regardless, a 4000+ has 1MB of cache, which would give it even more of a performance edge over the rest. On a lot of tests, the Sempy smokes everything AMD, except the few tests where cache is important (which is where it ties with the 4000+ and 3800+). Definitely not a 400mhz deficit compared to a Venice like you were saying, but closer to 200mhz.

Avalon, remember that the sempron is running with ram at 300 MHZ. Remember that! That accounts for the huge difference in performance.

 

[valkator]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: Fox5
Thing is though, they have very low cache, and 754 has much slower memory performance(single channel + just can't overclock as high) than 939, so in the end they can end up way crippled due to that lack of cache. Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.(XP-M's reach prescott levels easily)

Cache isn't as crucial on the A64 as it is on the P4, the same is true for the dual channel memory, which might make a big differnce for X2 but most definately not that big of a deal for single core A64s.

.

Yea umm dual channel does make a difference on an A64 i dont know what you are talkin about. You get double the mem bandwidth and even benchmarks show that it improves your system performance. Also just by doing dual channel with my winnie i manage to multi task easier and even get more fps in games heh. Get your facts straight

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Fox5
You're not going to overclock a low end sempron very high though without one of the pci-e chipsets, so if you're keeping an AGP video card, AXP-M may be higher performance in the end.(unlocked multiplier versus nforce3 250 boards which often max out at around 230fsb)

My lowest end Epox 8KDA3I with Nforce3 can hit 300MHz with passively cooled chipset. YMMV

Originally posted by: charloscarlies
I have gone through two Epox 8KDA3's and would not recommend them anymore. You can't go wrong with the Chaintech VNF3-250. This board has been rock solid and it's dirt cheap. Does 300 HTT without missing a beat. I just picked up another one at ZZF for $54 w/ free 2nd day air.

What happened to your two Epox boards? I've had pretty good results with mine, so just curious. Also, thanks for the heads-up on ZZF pricing. Newegg has it for $58 plus $2 FedEx Saver.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Avalon
On a portion of the Xbit lab benches, the 3800+ is besting the 4000+. What's up with that? Regardless, a 4000+ has 1MB of cache, which would give it even more of a performance edge over the rest. On a lot of tests, the Sempy smokes everything AMD, except the few tests where cache is important (which is where it ties with the 4000+ and 3800+). Definitely not a 400mhz deficit compared to a Venice like you were saying, but closer to 200mhz.

Avalon, remember that the sempron is running with ram at 300 MHZ. Remember that! That accounts for the huge difference in performance.

Yes, but memory bandwidth doesn't do as much as you think for K8 performance. Besides, the tests did not say what the timings were for the memory they were running on the Sempron system. The memory they used was Corsair CMX512-4400C25, 2 x 512MB, DDR550 SDRAM, 2.5-4-4-8, which is rated for DDR550. They were running the memory at DDR600, and I don't see where they state if they were able to keep the timings at 2.5-4-4-8 or have to loosen them further. Anyway, the Venice setups are using Corsair TCCD @ 2-2-2-10, and even despite having less bandwidth then a 1:1 @ DDR600, the very tight timings will actually make up a good portion of that performance delta. The rest is just a miniscule bandwidth advantage.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: valkator

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: Fox5
Thing is though, they have very low cache, and 754 has much slower memory performance(single channel + just can't overclock as high) than 939, so in the end they can end up way crippled due to that lack of cache. Good performance for the price, but they're only about on par with an XP-M for price/performance, except you get a newer platform and a much cooler running one.(XP-M's reach prescott levels easily)

Cache isn't as crucial on the A64 as it is on the P4, the same is true for the dual channel memory, which might make a big differnce for X2 but most definately not that big of a deal for single core A64s.

.

Yea umm dual channel does make a difference on an A64 i dont know what you are talkin about. You get double the mem bandwidth and even benchmarks show that it improves your system performance. Also just by doing dual channel with my winnie i manage to multi task easier and even get more fps in games heh. Get your facts straight

Link?

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Avalon

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Avalon
On a portion of the Xbit lab benches, the 3800+ is besting the 4000+. What's up with that? Regardless, a 4000+ has 1MB of cache, which would give it even more of a performance edge over the rest. On a lot of tests, the Sempy smokes everything AMD, except the few tests where cache is important (which is where it ties with the 4000+ and 3800+). Definitely not a 400mhz deficit compared to a Venice like you were saying, but closer to 200mhz.

Avalon, remember that the sempron is running with ram at 300 MHZ. Remember that! That accounts for the huge difference in performance.

Yes, but memory bandwidth doesn't do as much as you think for K8 performance. Besides, the tests did not say what the timings were for the memory they were running on the Sempron system. The memory they used was Corsair CMX512-4400C25, 2 x 512MB, DDR550 SDRAM, 2.5-4-4-8, which is rated for DDR550. They were running the memory at DDR600, and I don't see where they state if they were able to keep the timings at 2.5-4-4-8 or have to loosen them further. Anyway, the Venice setups are using Corsair TCCD @ 2-2-2-10, and even despite having less bandwidth then a 1:1 @ DDR600, the very tight timings will actually make up a good portion of that performance delta. The rest is just a miniscule bandwidth advantage.

If you take all the numbers into account, the miniscule advantage actually is very important. Heres 2-2-2-5 DDR400 vs 2.5-4-4-10 DDR600. The timings only have a 2-3% effect on games, but 2-3% can make the difference between who wins in the benchmarks. Also, increased bandwith for the 754 platform helps more than it does for the 939 sytems, as there are diminishing returns in terms of memory bandwith effectiveness, and 754 is a little more bandwith starved than 939. Also finally, alot of people know that TCCD can get to DDR400 at 2.5-4-4-X, so it isn't that bad of a possability that the ram was Oced 1:1. It probably is, as Xbitlabs usually tells us when a divider is used.


http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/ocz-ddr600_4.html

 

[andrexIBA]

my 2500+ palermo core can hit 343 HTT@2401mhz and it rocks. im using a DFI NF4X-AL Infinity.
may increase more with TCCD or BH-5 family