New Build Discussion

[BerlinCB]

Background: I'll start out by saying that I'm a busy professional with a family, so your expertise is appreciated and will hopefully save me a lot of time. My upgrade cycle is about 4 years. I'm currently without a PC, as I gave it to an "income challenged" friend. I have a high end work laptop that I can utilize for everything except games, so this PC will mainly be used for gaming.

Notes: I already have a 2 monitors (2x Asus VG248 1920x1080, 144Hz), but need everything else, OS included. I'd like good stock speeds for parts, but the ability to "auto" OC in the future to wring out extra speed. I want an SSD for OS, SATA for storage solution. I don't need SLI/Crossfire initially, but would like the capability for future expansion. I enjoy quality, but don't like to pay unjustified amounts for it. Low noise is a preference, but not a requirement over performance.

Budget: $2,000 (though this is flexible, given the proper justification)

Goal: To learn a bit about the latest trends without having to read 100 website articles/reviews and arrive at a great build.

Thanks!
~ Chris

 

[mfenn]

Check out the midrange builder's thread (updated weekly) for a starting point. Then grab the upgraded RAM, GPU, and cooler that are recommended and you have a machine that can handle any game that you care to throw at it. Add a copy of Windows 8.1 for $100, and you are sitting at $1230 AR AP.

If you want to spend even more, reasonable upgrades would be:

- A fancier case like the Fractal Design R4 for $100
- A bigger SSD like the MX100 512GB for $215 if you like to keep lots of games installed
- A bigger HDD like this Seagate 7200RPM 3TB drive for $100 AP if you need lots of media storage

 

[BerlinCB]

Here is an initial system I threw together by looking at popular components:

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/PQ43gs

It is slightly over the 2k mark (It was just under 2k, but I changed it to get all parts from Newegg.com just for single shipping point), but seems fairly future proof for my 4 year build cycle with room for expansion if needed.

It has some of the parts you mention. Let me know if there is anything glaring you would change for price vs. performance reasons.

Thank you,
~ Chris

 

[DSF]

I think you're overspending in certain areas without getting any performance increase to show for it.

- Entry level all-in-one liquid cooling is not really worth it over air. The performance isn't any better, it's not necessarily quieter, and it's often more expensive than a very nice air cooling. If you want to do water do a custom loop, otherwise buy high-end air.

- As mfenn mentioned above, the MX100 series SSDs offer a much better price/capacity ratio and are very good.

- There's not necessarily a reason to move down to 8GB on your budget, but I would consider going with 16GB of relatively inexpensive DDR3-1600. The RAM's speed has almost nothing to do with real-world performance.

- Your PSU is larger than it needs to be, even for SLI. On top of that it's pricier than I would be willing to accept even if you did need one that large. PSUs routinely go on sale, you just have to be flexible enough to adapt to whichever high-quality model is on a hot deal the week you order. You shouldn't have to pay more than 99.99, and you may even luck out and spend less than that.

 

[BerlinCB]

- Entry level all-in-one liquid cooling is not really worth it over air. The performance isn't any better, it's not necessarily quieter, and it's often more expensive than a very nice air cooling. If you want to do water do a custom loop, otherwise buy high-end air.

I was thinking the water solutions would cool better *and* be a bit quieter. If that isn't the case, then most likely I'll switch to something like a Noctua. They really don't work better than air? Does anyone have a good article or link that talks about this?

- As mfenn mentioned above, the MX100 series SSDs offer a much better price/capacity ratio and are very good.

Yeah, this was a splurge. I did notice that you could get about double the space or half the price with the Crucial drives vs. Samsung. I just wanted the fastest and Newegg had the Samsung Pro's on special.

- There's not necessarily a reason to move down to 8GB on your budget, but I would consider going with 16GB of relatively inexpensive DDR3-1600. The RAM's speed has almost nothing to do with real-world performance.

It has been several years since I built my last system, but it sure seemed like memory timings/latency had more impact on performance. That was the main reason for buying that specific RAM. It had the best latency/timings @1.5v and 1600 or better speed. Also it was blue, which matched the MB.

Speaking of the MB, I went round and round looking at different models. Is there no one definitive leader right now or are they all munged together with personal preference being the deciding factor? Which manufacturer has the most hassle free OC experience nowadays?

- Your PSU is larger than it needs to be, even for SLI. On top of that it's pricier than I would be willing to accept even if you did need one that large. PSUs routinely go on sale, you just have to be flexible enough to adapt to whichever high-quality model is on a hot deal the week you order. You shouldn't have to pay more than 99.99, and you may even luck out and spend less than that.

I'll have to go back and look at that power supply, but I had throught it was $30 less than it was. I was mainly impressed with the 9.9/10 review it received from jonnyguru and the 10 year warranty. It would also be powerful enough to handle any whims I had with regard to upgrading down the road.

I really appreciate the input! Keep the information flowing.

 

[mfenn]

I agree with DSF overall. There are many parts in your build that are expensive just for the sake of being expensive without delivering a real benefit.

- CPU: The i7 is a pretty pointless upgrade over the i5 for gaming, especially considering that they overclock to the same levels.
- AIO: What DSF said. There's nothing magic about water, it's just a medium to transport heat from one place to another. The benefit of a custom water loop is that you use the flexibly of tubing to transport the heat to a large radiator which has lots of capacity and is located in a cooler ambient environment. An AIO uses very short tubing to transport the water about 6-8 inches. The heatpipes in a modern tower cooler serve the same purpose, but use a much more efficient phase-change medium.
- Mobo: Certainly a fine board, but since no specific feature really jumped out at you as a "must have", then you might as well go with the less expensive option.
- RAM: Intel's memory controller is incredibly efficient and really reduces the need for extremely faster memory in CPU-type workloads. Fast memory does help in GPU-type workloads (i.e. when using the IGP), but you're not going to be doing that.
- SSD : While the 840 Pro is faster than the MX100, it's faster in dimensions that will never be perceived in a gaming workload. So really you're paying double for no perceivable benefit.
- GPU: The GTX 780 Ti is (barely) the fastest single card out there. That also means that it is horrible value for money. The real-world difference between it and the R9 290 is ~25% in the best case and more like ~15% in the average case. Unless you spend money like it's going out of style, paying double for 15% more performance doesn't make sense.
- PSU: As DSF mentioned, the PSU is way overkill, both in terms of wattage and price. The 650W units that I recommended are plenty for a single GPU, but even a quality Seasonic-built 750W unit (for SLI/CFX), like the XFX Core 750W is $85 AR. (Not that "upgrading to SLI/CFX actually makes sense in 99% of cases, but I digress.)
- ODD : You can get Blu-Ray burners for $55 without rebate.

 

[BerlinCB]

Thank you very much for the input guys! That was exactly the information that I was looking for. At least now if I pay too much for a component, I'll know if it was worth it or if I was just being a brand snob.

Once I make the final decisions, I'll come back and post my build.

Thanks!
~ Chris

 

[voodoo7817]

I was on a similar upgrade schedule, coming from a 2009 i7-860, and I built something very similar to what you're looking at, as you can see in my signature. I went with the 4790k but perhaps the 4690k would have been a better 'bang for buck' option. I was able to get it at Microcenter so it was only $80 more than the 4690k, and I'm also not a big overclocker so the extra GHz out of the box are definitely helpful.

I'm currently reusing my SSD and graphics card from my previous build, but I plan to upgrade sometime in the next year or so (NVMe SSDs and next gen of graphics cards). If I were to purchase new components today, I agree with those who suggest getting a cheaper-yet reputable main SSD (along with a nice-sized data drive; I'm partial to WD Blacks for warranty reasons: 5vs2 for Blues). The MX100 is a good option for that. If you can wait, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a Samsung Evo 850 drive released somewhat soon that might compete very well with the MX100, in both price and performance.

For a videocard, if you're not looking to upgrade your monitor anytime soon, 1080p isn't too demanding and you should be able to save a few hundred dollars there too. The 760 or the 280x would be fine at that resolution, but if you're willing to spend, the 290 would even let you upgrade to 1440p without much performance loss at all.

BTW, one reason I liked the Extreme6 over other motherboard options is that it is the cheapest one that has an Ultra M.2 slot for upcoming SSDs. The Extreme6 also has dual nics and 10 sata ports, which is more than most other options in the $150 area. If you don't care about those features, I think you can drop down to the $120-level for a mobo and not miss much at all in terms of features.

Another thing, if you are patient, you can wait for good deals and save a fair amount of money as well. For example, I was able to get my Fractal Design case for $80 (windowed version is at Newegg right now, http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2391422) and the Seasonic Platinum for $80 too. Although I just realized your username so perhaps Newegg and Microcenter aren't options.

 

[BerlinCB]

Thanks for the responses Voodoo and everyone else.

Here is what I think I've settled on:

Previous price - $2092.68

Final Hardware:

CPU - Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core - Combo or $339.99
CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-D14 65.0 CFM - $69.99
Motherboard - ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 - Combo or $161.13
Memory - G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866 - $159.99
Storage - Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" SSD - $115.98
Storage2 - Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM - $59.99
Video Card - EVGA GeForce GTX 780 Ti 3GB Superclocked ACX - $659.99
Case - Fractal Design Define R4 (Black Pearl) ATX Mid Tower - $113.98
Power Supply - EVGA 750W ATX12V / EPS12V - $95.98
Optical Drive - Asus DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS DVD/CD Writer - $16.99
Operating System - Microsoft Windows 8.1 (OEM) (64-bit) - $84.99

Total: $1879.00 - $15 Combo
Final Price: $1864.00

Savings = $228.68 Thanks guys!
(Some prices include shipping I won't have to pay, so it will even be a bit less than this.)

- I went with the i7, because I don't particularly want to OC, but want to have the option should I change my mind.
- Changed to an air cooler as recommended. I could have gone cheaper with the 212 Evo, but I'm shooting for a quieter case that still has high airflow.
- Kept the same motherboard for the same reasons Voodoo mentioned and they combo'd with the processor.
- Went down a notch on RAM and saved $20, but kept the same manufacturer. Also blue to match the MB (even though I'm not getting the windowed Define R4.. I know I'm OCD)
- Changed to the Crucial MX100 and saved a big chunk of money there.
- Kept the 780 Ti. I know it is a premium price, but I want it in case I go to a higher resolution monitor.
- Dropped to a 750W EVGA PS. Will be under $90 with Newegg Premier and same rating and warranty.
- Dropped the Blu-ray for a standard DVD drive. Not sure who I was kidding thinking I'd watch a Blu-ray on my PC instead of my 60" TV.

And we're off to fill up the shopping cart!

~ Chris

PS - Voodoo, my last name is Berlin and I live in the Pacific Northwest, not Germany.

 

[DSF]

i7 has nothing to do with overclocking. It's the "K" designation that's useful for overclocking because it means the multiplier has been unlocked. You can do the same with an i5 if that's your main draw to the i7. The main difference between the i5 and i7 is that the i7 has hyperthreading which is of quiestionable utility in a gaming machine.

For the most part games still struggle to use four cores effectively, so expecting them to use eight logical cores in the next few years is probably unlikely. BF4 is notable as one of the few current games that really sees a benefit from more cores, and it runs like a dream on my i5. In other words, the i7 is probably not rendering much gaming benefit over the i5.

You have the budget, so it's not a huge deal I suppose, but just make sure you understand what you're buying.

I'd lean towards mfenn's view on the graphics card, but then I'm always the "buy one step down from the top" guy here in terms of graphics cards. I just don't feel like you get your money's worth from a top-of-the-line graphics card that becomes a midrange graphics card in just a year or two.

 

[voodoo7817]

Here's some information on Hyperthreading: http://lifehacker.com/how-hyper-threading-really-works-and-when-its-actuall-1394216262.

For most people, hyperthreading only really improves video editing performance (someone please correct me if there's another big winner). I don't do a ton of that (which is why I'm not waiting on the 6C/12T X99 builds), but I do plan to dabble. My understanding is that hyperthreading can offer double digit percent improvements. If you don't plan on doing any video editing, dropping down to the 4690k might be a smart decision.

One other thing in this 4690k vs 4790k comparison though, the 4790K has a fairly substantial higher stock clock than the 4690k, 4 vs 3.5 (in the past the difference between i5 and i7 has been 100MHz or 200MHz, IIRC). Both chips will likely overclock similarly (but with the i7 still more likely to offer higher performance), so if you plan on overclocking, this higher stock clock speed is less of an advantage, but it is still an advantage.

 

[BerlinCB]

The main reason for the i7 over the i5 was the stock clock speed. I wanted the higher speed without "having" to overclock, but bought the K just in case I wanted to down the road.

I completely get the video card arguement. In all my past systems, I was one or two generations behind the lead dog and I never really experienced a ton of issues. This card is pure indulgence and reward for working my ass off the last year. If I was tight on money I'd probably be buying a 280x, as I've seen some killer deals for those while searching around the last couple days.

Video editing is always something I've "wanted" to try, but have never gotten around to making time for. I have 100's of hours of family videos that it would be cool to do some things with. Nice to know I can do it if I get the time.

These Anandtech forums have always been my favorite and you guys didn't let me down this time either!

~ Chris

 

[toughtrasher]

Check out the midrange builder's thread (updated weekly) for a starting point. Then grab the upgraded RAM, GPU, and cooler that are recommended and you have a machine that can handle any game that you care to throw at it. Add a copy of Windows 8.1 for $100, and you are sitting at $1230 AR AP.

If you want to spend even more, reasonable upgrades would be:

- A fancier case like the Fractal Design R4 for $100
- A bigger SSD like the MX100 512GB for $215 if you like to keep lots of games installed
- A bigger HDD like this Seagate 7200RPM 3TB drive for $100 AP if you need lots of media storage

this is what I recommend also. Simple: Learn how to make a basic, mid-tier build. Then upgrade parts based on your liking, like better CPU, graphics card, more RAM, better case, etc.

With that money you can build a really nice desktop that will last years.

 

[mfenn]

I guess the main point on the GTX 780 Ti is that, yes it's the fastest, but it's only barely faster than cards that only cost 1/2 as much. It will also have more trouble at higher resolutions than the R9 290(X) due to having less VRAM. I just can't understand that purchase.

The rest is fine, and is all compatible. Let us know how the build goes.

 

[BerlinCB]

Just checking back in to let you guys know how the build went. Everything is up and running smoothly, not to mention fast as hell. Just a couple things of note...

1.) The Fractal Designs Define R4 case is HUGE. My previous system was built in an Antec 900 and that thing was tiny by comparison. I don't know why, but for some reason all the pictures and videos didn't do justice to just how big it is. Aside from the size though, it is an amazing case. Super quiet with the Noctua DH-14 (I can barely tell the computer is on).

2.) Perhaps I'm just out of practice, but if you put a Noctua DH-14 on an ASRock Z97 Extreme 6, make sure you pull off the fans from the heatsink and connect them to the motherboard first. Once the heatsink is mounted on top of the CPU, you're not getting anywhere near the CPU fan connections.

Everything else went together smooth as butter (The cable management is a dream with the Define R4's grommets and space). Also, I hadn't planned on overclocking, but the ASRock bios made it so damn easy I decided to bump it up a notch with their turbo settings. So the CPU is at 4.5Ghz and the memory at 2133.

The video card overperforms, as we knew it would, but I'm not sad about treating myself.

Happy Camper,
~ Chris

 

[mfenn]

Glad you like it!

 

[mistersprinkles]

2.) Perhaps I'm just out of practice, but if you put a Noctua DH-14 on an ASRock Z97 Extreme 6, make sure you pull off the fans from the heatsink and connect them to the motherboard first. Once the heatsink is mounted on top of the CPU, you're not getting anywhere near the CPU fan connections.

Nope. Just get a really long pair of tweezers, or chopsticks, and shazaam. But yes, generally you want those fans installed first. I have, however, managed to get the connections done with my fingers to top-of-board mounted fan headers with the NHD14 installed inside a 500R (corsair) case.