New Bush Guard documents forged...?

ajf3

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Oct 10, 2000
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Link

'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.

Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.

The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.

The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.

But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.

"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."

The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.

"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.

"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."

Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.

"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."

He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.

"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"

The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.

"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.

"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."

But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.

"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."

According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic."


This belongs in the stickied thread at the top
 
Feb 10, 2000
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This article raises some interesting issues, but on balance I consider CBS News a more credible source than "CNSNews," which carries a clear pro-Republican bias. I think it's safe to say the jury's still out on this one. I'll agree that, on their face, the documents appear to be a product of a modern word-processing program, not a typewriter.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
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We were discussing this a bit in the sticky. It looks bad for whoever "found" these docs (Jerry B. Killian?). It stands to reason if you are going to make fake docs, why do such a sloppy job? How hard it it to find a working 60s era typewriter to make four short memos? This is as bad as the lies the SWVT tried to pawn off.
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
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Memos Show Bush Suspended From Flying
The White House released memos Wednesday night saying that George W. Bush was suspended from flying fighter jets for failing to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard.
The Vietnam-era memos add new dimensions to the bare-bones explanation of Bush's aides over the years that he was suspended simply because he decided to skip his annual physical exam. The exam was scheduled during a year in which Bush left Texas, where he had been flying fighter jets, to work on a U.S. Senate campaign in
White House communications director Dan Bartlett told CBS' "60 Minutes II," which first obtained the memos, that Bush's superiors granted permission to train in Alabama in a non-flying status and that "many of the documents you have here affirm just that."

It sounds like from this new story that the WHITE HOUSE released the SAME memos as CBS got. Do you read it the same way?
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
Found this:

The White House distributed copies of the memos, apparently dampening speculation they are fraudulent.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/...e.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40376

That's strange... and the Killian guy is dead. Who "found" the memos?
Thanks for including the entire paragraph. But WND isn't exactly the most trustworthy source, anyway.

The White House distributed copies of the memos, apparently dampening speculation they are fraudulent. But the copies are from faxes sent by CBS News yesterday.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Found this:

The White House distributed copies of the memos, apparently dampening speculation they are fraudulent.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/...e.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40376

That's strange... and the Killian guy is dead. Who "found" the memos?

This is indeed curious, though the article notes the White House got the memos from CBS News, leaving alive the possibility that they're fake.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that they were found in some other person's personnel record (though this, if true, also wouldn't necessarily mean they weren't dummied up by some pro-Kerry employee at the National Personnel Records Center in St Louis).

The whole thing is odd to say the least. I have to believe the White House released them to appear cooperative, and to deflect any impact potentially created by their release.
 

YellowRose

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
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last time I looked typewriters and word proc systems of that time did have the letters tand h on them. put them together like this and you get th.
 

daveshel

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,453
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Originally posted by: YellowRose
last time I looked typewriters and word proc systems of that time did have the letters tand h on them. put them together like this and you get th.

But Word makes them smaller and moves them up into superscript position on the line.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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Originally posted by: ajf3

Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
.
.
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.
.
.
The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.

"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.

"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."

But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.

"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."
I love "experts." The documents are from 1972 - 1973. Allow me to introduce you to the IBM Selectric II Typewriter from 1971.
The ability to change fonts, combined with the neat regular appearance of the typed page, was revolutionary and marked the beginning of desktop publishing. Later models with selective pitch and built-in correcting tape carried the trend even further. Any typist could produce a polished manuscript.
.
.
The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts), whereas the Selectric I did not.
The original Selectric came out in 1961. If the military had an ongoing purchase contract with IBM, they would probably be among the first wide scale users of the Selectric II.
Originally posted by: Chadder007
PWN3D!!!!
Not even rented... Not even borrowed... At least not yet. We'll see.
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
64
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CNSNews.com is a division of the Media Research Center, a group intent on proving the "liberal media" myth. So they found some typography "experts." This is the same organization that said huge stockpiles of WMD's were found in Iraq and then retracted it a few hours later.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Huh - I know nothing of the good Dr. Bouffard, but he raises some interesting points, and there seems to be, at least, ample basis to question whether these docs are genuine. It's pretty funny, if they are indeed fake, that the forger would make them so easily debunked.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Even if they are forged.. I wonder if the INFO is correct?? Bush didn't seem to disagree and their are still some credibility TIME gaps in his records, aren't there?
 

Veramocor

Senior member
Mar 2, 2004
389
1
0
Well I'm not convinced they are fake yet but if they are it just goes to prove Karl Rove is a genius. Allow your opponents to find fraudulent documents that they will use against you. Leave a few not noticable but easily proven mistakes. Charge your ooponents with slandering you and making up false documents.


hehe


Seriuously what they need to do is an ink age analysis, or paper age analysis to prove/disprove these documents.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,595
2,586
126
Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Check this one out too.

Look at the superimposed documents. Hmm....

CsG

Ouch. I think CBS needs to talk to their experts. It doesn't really change much of the GWB guard story though.

And further strengthens the claims and credibiltiy of the brave vets letting the truth be known about Kerry and exposing moveon.lie for what its really worth.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Veramocor
Seriuously what they need to do is an ink age analysis, or paper age analysis to prove/disprove these documents.

The problem with that is there aren't any "originals" that we know of - just copies of copies of copies...

CsG
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

And further strengthens the claims and credibiltiy of the brave vets letting the truth be known about Kerry and exposing moveon.lie for what its really worth.

I fail to see how one thing relates to the other, but thanks for trolling, er, I mean playing.
 

klah

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2002
7,070
1
0
Originally posted by: Harvey

The Selectric II had a lever (above the right platen knob) that would allow the platen to be turned freely but return to the same vertical line (for inserting such symbols as subscripts and superscripts), whereas the Selectric I did not.
The original Selectric came out in 1961. If the military had an ongoing purchase contract with IBM, they would probably be among the first wide scale users of the Selectric II[/quote]

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Type%20writer

They also introduced auto-correction, where a sticky tape in front of the print ribbon could remove the black-powdered image of a typed character, and introduced selectable "pitch" so that the typewriter could be switched among pica ("10 pitch"), elite ("12 pitch"), and sometimes agate ("15 pitch"), even in one document. Even so, all Selectrics were monospaced -- each and every character was the same width. Although IBM had produced a successful typebar-based machine, the IBM Executive, with proportional spacing, no proportionally-spaced Selectric office typewriter was ever introduced. There was, however, a much more expensive proportionally-spaced machine called the Selectric Composer which was considered a typesetting machine rather than a typewriter.



Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Check this one out too.

Look at the superimposed documents. Hmm....

CsG

Looks pretty damning. I think we will find out the truth shortly.
 
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