NHL playoffs 2011 thread

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silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
The way a team plays when they're already up 4-0 is meaningless.

I don't think I've ever seen boarding called when the guy is facing away from the boards and doesn't hit his head on something violently (and it didn't happen on an icing where there is no discretion). You can cherry pick phrases from the rule and say that he had to avoid contact, but 1. the check started before he was in a "vulnerable position" so that's irrelevant, and 2. you should know by now that the wording of the rules means very little. Look at rule 48, do you see any mention of "hitting zones" or the direction the players are skating? No, but both of those things can make a hit legal when it would have otherwise fit the definition given in rule 48.

Now you understand the source of my frustration. The NHL basically makes shit up as it goes along. Rome was suspended 4 games due to the lateness of the hit and the extent of the injury. Raymond was hit later than Horton and his injury is worse. It is inconsistent.

They make up hitting zone rules after the fact, dole out suspensions willy-nilly (I still can't believe Chara didn't get anything), and are just generally so inconsistent it isn't even funny.

You'll hear even the whiniest Canucks fans say that they don't care what they call, so long as it is consistent. Rome, Chara, Raymond, Torres... look at those 4 plays side by side and then look at the punishments and tell me you wouldn't be frustrated.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Now you understand the source of my frustration. The NHL basically makes shit up as it goes along. Rome was suspended 4 games due to the lateness of the hit and the extent of the injury. Raymond was hit later than Horton and his injury is worse. It is inconsistent.

They make up hitting zone rules after the fact, dole out suspensions willy-nilly (I still can't believe Chara didn't get anything), and are just generally so inconsistent it isn't even funny.

You'll hear even the whiniest Canucks fans say that they don't care what they call, so long as it is consistent. Rome, Chara, Raymond, Torres... look at those 4 plays side by side and then look at the punishments and tell me you wouldn't be frustrated.

FWIW, I didn't think Rome deserved 4 games. I thought he'd get 1 game. And that was also inconsistent with the lack of suspension when Rome was injured. I thought Chara should have been suspended. IIRC I reluctantly agreed with the ruling on the Torres hit when they said they had defined these hitting zones back when they created rule 48, but I still wonder why the hitting zones aren't defined in the rule. I also don't really think there should be areas on the ice where you can make a dangerous hit that would be worthy of a suspension anywhere else on the ice. That doesn't make sense, and I'm glad they're talking about making changes to rule 48. Hitting is great and all, but it can be done without injuring players' brains.

To me, the big difference between Rome and Boychuk's hits is that Rome had to have been aware of the danger of an open ice check on an unsuspecting player. I don't think Boychuk can really be expected to anticipate the possibility of a broken back from that check (and it wasn't late, the check started when the puck was under Raymond and he finished it).

Chara on the other hand I think should have been aware of the danger of his check. He knew where he was on the ice, he knew they were along a bench, and he knows what's at the end of the benches. And he pushed Pacioretty's head.
 
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silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
FWIW, I didn't think Rome deserved 4 games. I thought he'd get 1 game. And that was also inconsistent with the lack of suspension when Rome was injured. I thought Chara should have been suspended. IIRC I reluctantly agreed with the ruling on the Torres hit when they said they had defined these hitting zones back when they created rule 48, but I still wonder why the hitting zones aren't defined in the rule. I also don't really think there should be areas on the ice where you can make a dangerous hit that would be worthy of a suspension anywhere else on the ice. That doesn't make sense, and I'm glad they're talking about making changes to rule 48. Hitting is great and all, but it can be done without injuring players' brains.

To me, the big difference between Rome and Boychuk's hits is that Rome had to have been aware of the danger of an open ice check on an unsuspecting player. I don't think Boychuk can really be expected to anticipate the possibility of a broken back from that check (and it wasn't late, the check started when the puck was under Raymond and he finished it).

Chara on the other hand I think should have been aware of the danger of his check. He knew where he was on the ice, he knew they were along a bench, and he knows what's at the end of the benches. And he pushed Pacioretty's head.

Well it seems we generally agree then. My only disagreement with this is that open ice hits are generally safer than ones near the boards. Rome should be good to go to make an open ice hit, Boychuk has to take care near the boards. There've been a lot of incidents occur near the boards, it's in the rules, it's just well known.

As much as Thornton pisses me off, I agree with him that everyone should be forced to go back to the thin padding as opposed to wearing the heavy body armour type padding. Reduce that, guys won't hit so hard, and we won't have so many injuries.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Well it seems we generally agree then. My only disagreement with this is that open ice hits are generally safer than ones near the boards. Rome should be good to go to make an open ice hit, Boychuk has to take care near the boards. There've been a lot of incidents occur near the boards, it's in the rules, it's just well known.

As much as Thornton pisses me off, I agree with him that everyone should be forced to go back to the thin padding as opposed to wearing the heavy body armour type padding. Reduce that, guys won't hit so hard, and we won't have so many injuries.

Both are really situational.

Open ice hits aren't so bad if you're expecting it, but if you're not expecting it your head hits the ice, and that's not good. Ask anyone who has run into Scott Stevens. Man I miss him...

Along the boards it's generally safe if the hit is expected and the guy is close to the boards. It's when someone gets hit from behind unexpectedly and they're ~4-5 feet from the boards that's really dangerous, because then you hit your head on the boards. The hit on Raymond was one of the more unusual hits into the boards that I've seen. I think the distance from the boards was a factor, because he was trying to get back on his feet and if he had gotten to the point where he was lifting his upper body back up his back wouldn't have been compressed like it was.
 
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SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
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The Horton hit happened less than a second after he passed the puck. This has been confirmed by the league. The hit, although late, was legal in all other respects, also confirmed by the league.

The allowable amount of time is a half second. Rome hit him at almost 1 second (.9), which is almost twice the allowable amount of time. If you were just going off the technical aspect of it, many guys get hit 1 second late but they are expecting it, and often aren't even called for interference.

I'm sure the severity of the hit was key for the 4 game suspension (given the fact that Horton wasn't expecting it) which I think has to be taken into account. Given the fact that Boston is a lesser team w/out Horton, it's only fair to remove Rome as well for the series. Eye for an eye and all that.

RE: Others who said they don't like Vancouver, I agree. Cannot stand Lapierre or Burrows, slimy dirty players who love to play unsportsmanlike. Sedins irritate me with the diving and refusal to take/throw a punch. Luongo doesn't think before he speaks and is mentally weak, even a cup win won't remove that label. I do like Kesler though, scrappy and love the physicality + skill. Also don't mind Bieksa, guy is tough as nails with a laser beam shot, anyone would love to have him on their team.

Boston, cannot stand Chara, especially since the MaxPax hit. But every dog has its day, and his is coming next year @Montreal. All in all, I really like Boston's physical style of play. They may be goons but they play a somewhat old school punishing style that is fun to watch. TT is a class act, especially watching the media try to troll him to say something about Luongo and he won't say anything unless it's about himself. Not a fan of their top line goons either (krejci horton lucic) but I'd rather see goonery than diving. Real men don't dive and I think it's the quickest way to lose respect.
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
71
The allowable amount of time is a half second. Rome hit him at almost 1 second (.9), which is almost twice the allowable amount of time. If you were just going off the technical aspect of it, many guys get hit 1 second late but they are expecting it, and often aren't even called for interference.

I'm sure the severity of the hit was key for the 4 game suspension (given the fact that Horton wasn't expecting it) which I think has to be taken into account. Given the fact that Boston is a lesser team w/out Horton, it's only fair to remove Rome as well for the series. Eye for an eye and all that.

Expecting a hit should have no bearing on a suspension. Now there's a difference between someone expecting a hit, and someone getting hit from behind / a blind spot. But getting hit with your head down should not make a penalty/suspension worse.

But the one reason I agree with the punishment for Rome is the same reason I agree with 'felony murder'. If you hurt someone in the act of doing something not within the rules, the punishment should be as if you intended to hurt them. Horton was hit late, it should have been a penalty regardless of injury (interference), so Rome has to accept the severity of punishment due to injuring a guy while breaking the rules. I've always been a fan of: if you injure a guy while making a non legal play, you should be suspended as long as the guy has the injury.
 

mosco

Senior member
Sep 24, 2002
940
1
76
At least give Sedin some credit, he didn't weakly fall over and play dead like usual.

Well didn't he already get a penalty in that game for flopping at that point? What happens when you flop twice in a game?

He probably knew he couldn't flop and didn't know what else to do.

Or was that the other Sedin?

EDIT Looks like it was his brother that got the penalty. Still, Marchand is a rookie, you can't let a rookie do that to you.
 
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SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
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Expecting a hit should have no bearing on a suspension. Now there's a difference between someone expecting a hit, and someone getting hit from behind / a blind spot. But getting hit with your head down should not make a penalty/suspension worse.

But the one reason I agree with the punishment for Rome is the same reason I agree with 'felony murder'. If you hurt someone in the act of doing something not within the rules, the punishment should be as if you intended to hurt them. Horton was hit late, it should have been a penalty regardless of injury (interference), so Rome has to accept the severity of punishment due to injuring a guy while breaking the rules. I've always been a fan of: if you injure a guy while making a non legal play, you should be suspended as long as the guy has the injury.

Well, Horton was allowed to have his head down at the point he was hit, which indirectly did make the suspension worse (due to his injury due to not expecting it). But definitely an eye for eye, and in many cases even that's not "fair". Horton was the highest scoring player on the B's so a real eye for an eye would be suspending Kesler for the rest of the series. Or someone who is just as valuable as Horton. It would cut down on the no-names headhunting superstars, that's for sure.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
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Well didn't he already get a penalty in that game for flopping at that point? What happens when you flop twice in a game?

He probably knew he couldn't flop and didn't know what else to do.

Or was that the other Sedin?

EDIT Looks like it was his brother that got the penalty. Still, Marchand is a rookie, you can't let a rookie do that to you.

Yeah, that was pretty funny. At least throw one punch back, dam.

I did find some footage of henrik actually throwing a punch back in 2008:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZhW-lTPzDc

I know, amazing find.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
Hilarious. Boston needs to hit them hard at the start of game 7 tonight.

It's funny, people rip on the Canucks for being "dirty", then when our players take the high road and rely on the refs to stop the crap in the scrums like that, they're "bitches".
 

Sentrosi2121

Platinum Member
Aug 8, 2004
2,567
2
81
I'm looking at a solid game tonight from both sides of the ice. Boston needs to dominate the offensive zone, control the middle of the ice and score at least a power play goal to win this. All series long Vancouver has taken away the boards and Boston has adjusted accordingly. I'm expecting a lot of rubber being shot at Luongo in the first ten minutes tonight too. Boston is going to sniff all over that crease looking for a juicy rebound tonight. Vancouver has to keep the 10' in front of Luongo clear too. If they see a white jersey in there, the need to move him three rows into the seats. Make that Vancouvers territory.

If this game goes into OT, I'm going to be a mess tomorrow. So I'm hoping that everything gets taken care of in the first 60 minutes.
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
67
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It's funny, people rip on the Canucks for being "dirty", then when our players take the high road and rely on the refs to stop the crap in the scrums like that, they're "bitches".

You don't get the joke. The joke is that the animated gif bascially validates everything people say abotu the Sedin's.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
You don't get the joke. The joke is that the animated gif bascially validates everything people say abotu the Sedin's.

And they're ignorant. Ever watch Gretzky play? How many times did he drop the gloves with a little pest? Players have different styles. Marchand pulls the pest routine and punches people after the whistle, the Sedins stay out of that stuff and win Art Ross trophies.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
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And they're ignorant. Ever watch Gretzky play? How many times did he drop the gloves with a little pest? Players have different styles. Marchand pulls the pest routine and punches people after the whistle, the Sedins stay out of that stuff and win Art Ross trophies.

You mean the Sedin's hurt their team by diving? Just like Lapierre? Nobody respects the little kid who cries to get their big brother in trouble. They can win all the Art Ross trophies they want, they're still wimps who have never taken off the gloves to defend their team.

Gretzky not fight? Of course he did. No, it wasn't often but he's at least tried and earned his teammates' respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJZQXFMHFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie1cvW6X8FI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2riXdYQDiY
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,641
6,209
126
Say what you will about the Sedins, but in 6-7 hours they will be lifting the Cup over their heads.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Say what you will about the Sedins, but in 6-7 hours they will be lifting the Cup over their heads.

And they should, they were the best team by a landslide during the regular season. This series shouldn't have even gone 7 games had it not been for the stupid late hit by Rome and the mental fragility of Luongo.
 
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