Nice commentary on Drug Legalization

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

How does one decide what drugs to legalize and what not to?

What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

LOL alcohol is regulated....

They could start by legalizing weed. It would severaly undermine the mexican drug trade. Not stop it, but the positives clearly outweight the negatives (its already easy to get, and most of all the money goes down south).

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: scott916

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

I completely agree, however I question the government's ability to reign in a public, whose perception is so easily shifted, that decides its now fine to try coke because 'they say so' and becomes quickly addicted, leading to many of the problems we now experience with alcohol. People who are tired on the roads from staying up all night binging, rampant addiction, even if there is a DRAMATIC drop in violent crime. It's a catch 22, and that's just cocaine. As for heroin, look at countries in the middle east where it's readily available and the addiction rate is simply staggering.

As much as I'd love to see a shift towards sensibility in the american public and the government, I'm not confident it could be pulled off. There's a reason hard drugs are illegal in every country on the planet.

It is hard to say. I dont expect a large bump in useage\addiction. But I acknowledge they should be a bump due to some people trying it. If we can cut down on Tobacco use by public perception. I think we can deal with heroine and cocaine. Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances out there.

 

[scott916]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Cocaine and heroin are both extremely addictive. Do you really think that at least a signifcant percentage wouldn't be unintentionally addicted, especially if the cost comes down due to the legality? I'd venture to say almost nobody who is a dedicated cigarette smoker started smoking regularly because they WANTED to, but simply because they became addicted after trying them a few times.

I would LOVE to see drugs taken off the black market, legalized and regulated, but I think anything other than pot is simply a pipe dream. I'm not anti-drug at all, but I feel that if an ignorant person who thinks 'it must be fine because the gubment says so' would be easily enslaved by crippling drug addiction. A great deal of people who are anti-drug and would never try them in the first place now hold that opinion because of the social stigma associated with them.

 

[0marTheZealot]

The problem with the War on Drugs is that there is simply no way to beat a 15,000% profit margin. Secondly, the profit margins are so high because demand is so high. If demand is 10 kilos/week but supply is only 7 kilos/week, there's obviously going to be a spike in prices. Finally, this creates turf/gang wars as gangs and cartels kill each other over the prime real estate to sell drugs.

This is exactly the problem we had in the 20s with Prohibition. Despite billions spent by the Feds, demand remained high and instead of your local barkeep making money, men like Capone made a killing selling booze. We saw the same things with gang wars and such back then.

The best thing to do is legalize and regulate heavily. Marijuana is no more harmful than alcohol or tobacco. Cocaine and heroin would need to be regulated heavily, perhaps on a ration system. I don't know all the answers, but legalization/regulation is worth a shot, just like Prohibition was worth a shot to see the consequences for later generations.

 

[ProfJohn]

Let's counter the pro-drug article with an anti-drug article.
Link

Seems that every place that has tried decriminalization has experienced major problems afterwards.

I think you have to look at both sides of the issue and decide which one is worse.

 

[cwjerome]

I am not convinced there would be any savings from decriminalizing hard drugs. If we had a sink or swim society then maybe, but already good responsible people suffer from the bad decisions of irresponsible people to such a large degree, I think it would only get worse.

 

[BoberFett]

ProfJohn, that link exposes the problem with decriminalization, not legalization. There's an important difference.

 

[Ns1]

No matter how legal it is I'm still not going to do heroin or coke.



I'm pretty torn on the issue. I have no problem with the legalization of non-physically addictive drugs.

coke/heroin/meth I'd have issues with.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: scott916
I feel that if an ignorant person who thinks 'it must be fine because the gubment says so' would be easily enslaved by crippling drug addiction.

This may sound a little harsh, but anyone who is so completely blinded by jingoistic loyalty that they are willing to take everything the government says as gospel truth is the perfect candidate for a crippling drug addiction. I'd much rather these "I'll stand behind my president because critiquing the government is wrong" types were frying their brains out on heroin than going to the polls and voting.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: scott916
I completely agree, however I question the government's ability to reign in a public, whose perception is so easily shifted, that decides its now fine to try coke because 'they say so' and becomes quickly addicted, leading to many of the problems we now experience with alcohol. People who are tired on the roads from staying up all night binging, rampant addiction, even if there is a DRAMATIC drop in violent crime. It's a catch 22, and that's just cocaine. As for heroin, look at countries in the middle east where it's readily available and the addiction rate is simply staggering.

It is a ridiculous assumption to make that legalization will see a huge wave in additional users. You might see a small bump up at the beginning as those who wanted to try those substances but didn't out of fear of being caught now go and experiment. But legalization isn't going to send our entire nation into a drug frenzy. Those that want to use already do so because, regardless of the War on Drugs, those drugs are still widely accessible and can be found.

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Try putting some thought behind your responses. Black markets exist to buy/sell things that are not legally available. Once something is legal, the black market demand for them dries up so there would be no undercutting of prices. It becomes a function of regular market forces.

You'd regulate drugs the exact same way you regulate alcohol and tobacco. It's pretty simple.

Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

How does one decide what drugs to legalize and what not to?

What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Is there a massive black market for alcohol or cigarettes?

What do you mean how? How do we regulate and tax other markets?

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

How does one decide what drugs to legalize and what not to?

What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Is there a massive black market for alcohol or cigarettes?

What do you mean how? How do we regulate and tax other markets?

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

Do you grow your own tobacco and brew your own beer too? Hell, people can have gardens in their back yard, how are farmers still in business?

Some might, most won't.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: scott916
I completely agree, however I question the government's ability to reign in a public, whose perception is so easily shifted, that decides its now fine to try coke because 'they say so' and becomes quickly addicted, leading to many of the problems we now experience with alcohol. People who are tired on the roads from staying up all night binging, rampant addiction, even if there is a DRAMATIC drop in violent crime. It's a catch 22, and that's just cocaine. As for heroin, look at countries in the middle east where it's readily available and the addiction rate is simply staggering.

It is a ridiculous assumption to make that legalization will see a huge wave in additional users. You might see a small bump up at the beginning as those who wanted to try those substances but didn't out of fear of being caught now go and experiment. But legalization isn't going to send our entire nation into a drug frenzy. Those that want to use already do so because, regardless of the War on Drugs, those drugs are still widely accessible and can be found.

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Try putting some thought behind your responses. Black markets exist to buy/sell things that are not legally available. Once something is legal, the black market demand for them dries up so there would be no undercutting of prices. It becomes a function of regular market forces.

You'd regulate drugs the exact same way you regulate alcohol and tobacco. It's pretty simple.

Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

How many people make moonshine? What's the annual revenue of reservation cigarettes vs tobacco companies?

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: scott916
I completely agree, however I question the government's ability to reign in a public, whose perception is so easily shifted, that decides its now fine to try coke because 'they say so' and becomes quickly addicted, leading to many of the problems we now experience with alcohol. People who are tired on the roads from staying up all night binging, rampant addiction, even if there is a DRAMATIC drop in violent crime. It's a catch 22, and that's just cocaine. As for heroin, look at countries in the middle east where it's readily available and the addiction rate is simply staggering.

It is a ridiculous assumption to make that legalization will see a huge wave in additional users. You might see a small bump up at the beginning as those who wanted to try those substances but didn't out of fear of being caught now go and experiment. But legalization isn't going to send our entire nation into a drug frenzy. Those that want to use already do so because, regardless of the War on Drugs, those drugs are still widely accessible and can be found.

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Try putting some thought behind your responses. Black markets exist to buy/sell things that are not legally available. Once something is legal, the black market demand for them dries up so there would be no undercutting of prices. It becomes a function of regular market forces.

You'd regulate drugs the exact same way you regulate alcohol and tobacco. It's pretty simple.

Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

You need to put more thought into your posts. I'd wager that if regulated effectively, black markets COULDN't undercut the price and still be a viable business. If all of a sudden, a licensed grower can grow 15 acres of high grade mj and get it dispensed legally, the market price won't be close to what it is on the black market.

Besides, almost everything has a "black market" by your standards. Corn, shoes, dvd's, etc. Just because you know a few people that get it off the reservations, doesn't mean that speaks for the state of the market. THose few people probably equate to about .0001% of the population actually buying goods legally.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
snip

If herb were legal you'd bet I'd be growing that shit in my backyard.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

Every single person I know either drinks or smokes (and most do both), and not a single one of them has ever bought moonshine or reservation cigarettes. I mean, really, that's your argument? Really?

Also, you need to consider quality. Right now, pot is pretty hit or miss. You might get some primo shit, you might get schwag; it's a toss-up. When you go buy a pack of Camels or a bottle of Pabst, you know exactly what you're getting. You've never, in your life, heard anyone say, "damn, this pack of Marlboros is shit compared to the pack I had last week." When operations are done on a large scale, as they are in a legal commercial business, quality control is a central component. People aren't out buying moonshine in droves because bathtub gin, by and large, tastes like complete shit. Why would I drive miles and miles for an inferior product?

If pot were legalized, you can bet that the large marijuana corporations would have vast standardized growing operations that could guarantee consistency of quality better than Uncle Joe who grows the shit in his closet. That's a huge factor in people's choice of product and it's a huge reason that moonshine is not a competitor for large alcohol companies (despite your imbecilic claim that it is).

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

First of all, moonshine is flat out illegal in the US, so it's not a demonstration of a legal substance that still has black market support. If it still has a market when perfectly legal and safe liquor is very affordable, that's news to me.

Your Indian reservation is also not a black market example but an example of tax evasion. Cigarettes are cheaper on reservations because they do not have to charge for tax since they are legally their own little countries. However, a person purchasing on a reservation should claim those cigarettes and pay tax on them just as if they bought them at a duty-free shop on vacation in another country.

Black markets exist to supply people with that which they can't obtain legally. You pay higher prices on the black market due to the inherent risk of being caught and the trouble the seller went through to obtain/transport those items. Once an item is legal, the risk factor evaporates and you simply have supply and demand dictating price.

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

They wouldn't as long as it is for personal consumption. The same goes for those that home brew beer now.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

Every single person I know either drinks or smokes (and most do both), and not a single one of them has ever bought moonshine or reservation cigarettes. I mean, really, that's your argument? Really?

Also, you need to consider quality. Right now, pot is pretty hit or miss. You might get some primo shit, you might get schwag; it's a toss-up. When you go buy a pack of Camels or a bottle of Pabst, you know exactly what you're getting. You've never, in your life, heard anyone say, "damn, this pack of Marlboros is shit compared to the pack I had last week." When operations are done on a large scale, as they are in a legal commercial business, quality control is a central component. People aren't out buying moonshine in droves because bathtub gin, by and large, tastes like complete shit. Why would I drive miles and miles for an inferior product?

If pot were legalized, you can bet that the large marijuana corporations would have vast standardized growing operations that could guarantee consistency of quality better than Uncle Joe who grows the shit in his closet. That's a huge factor in people's choice of product and it's a huge reason that moonshine is not a competitor for large alcohol companies (despite your imbecilic claim that it is).

Why should I bother responding to your insults? Go fuck yourself for all I care.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

First of all, moonshine is flat out illegal in the US, so it's not a demonstration of a legal substance that still has black market support. If it still has a market when perfectly legal and safe liquor is very affordable, that's news to me.

Your Indian reservation is also not a black market example but an example of tax evasion. Cigarettes are cheaper on reservations because they do not have to charge for tax since they are legally their own little countries. However, a person purchasing on a reservation should claim those cigarettes and pay tax on them just as if they bought them at a duty-free shop on vacation in another country.

Black markets exist to supply people with that which they can't obtain legally. You pay higher prices on the black market due to the inherent risk of being caught and the trouble the seller went through to obtain/transport those items. Once an item is legal, the risk factor evaporates and you simply have supply and demand dictating price.

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

They wouldn't as long as it is for personal consumption. The same goes for those that home brew beer now.

or corn, or carrots

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

How does one decide what drugs to legalize and what not to?

What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Is there a massive black market for alcohol or cigarettes?

What do you mean how? How do we regulate and tax other markets?

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

Do you grow your own tobacco and brew your own beer too? Hell, people can have gardens in their back yard, how are farmers still in business?

Some might, most won't.

I make wine. Chokecherry, grape, and plum. Only for my own consumption and on good years I might give some out as gifts. I thought about growing tobacco but we really don't have the climate for it. I was going to do a little research this year and see if they are any varieties suitable for a northern climate and if there is maybe I would experiment with some. I'd be willing to bet I could grow some pretty good sensimellia if I so desired.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: crownjules

Originally posted by: scott916
I completely agree, however I question the government's ability to reign in a public, whose perception is so easily shifted, that decides its now fine to try coke because 'they say so' and becomes quickly addicted, leading to many of the problems we now experience with alcohol. People who are tired on the roads from staying up all night binging, rampant addiction, even if there is a DRAMATIC drop in violent crime. It's a catch 22, and that's just cocaine. As for heroin, look at countries in the middle east where it's readily available and the addiction rate is simply staggering.

It is a ridiculous assumption to make that legalization will see a huge wave in additional users. You might see a small bump up at the beginning as those who wanted to try those substances but didn't out of fear of being caught now go and experiment. But legalization isn't going to send our entire nation into a drug frenzy. Those that want to use already do so because, regardless of the War on Drugs, those drugs are still widely accessible and can be found.

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Try putting some thought behind your responses. Black markets exist to buy/sell things that are not legally available. Once something is legal, the black market demand for them dries up so there would be no undercutting of prices. It becomes a function of regular market forces.

You'd regulate drugs the exact same way you regulate alcohol and tobacco. It's pretty simple.

Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

Then you know moonshine was big when we had prohibition of alcohol consumption and distribution. It has severaly fallen off since as it is far easier to purchase a legal alternative.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

How does one decide what drugs to legalize and what not to?

What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Is there a massive black market for alcohol or cigarettes?

What do you mean how? How do we regulate and tax other markets?

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

Does the govt tax you when you grow your own vegetables? What a silly example.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Black markets could undercut the price. Never heard of moonshine? And i know a lot of people who buy their cigarettes online from the Indian reservations because it's cheaper.

It seems perhaps you are the one who needs to put more thought into their posts?

Every single person I know either drinks or smokes (and most do both), and not a single one of them has ever bought moonshine or reservation cigarettes. I mean, really, that's your argument? Really?

Also, you need to consider quality. Right now, pot is pretty hit or miss. You might get some primo shit, you might get schwag; it's a toss-up. When you go buy a pack of Camels or a bottle of Pabst, you know exactly what you're getting. You've never, in your life, heard anyone say, "damn, this pack of Marlboros is shit compared to the pack I had last week." When operations are done on a large scale, as they are in a legal commercial business, quality control is a central component. People aren't out buying moonshine in droves because bathtub gin, by and large, tastes like complete shit. Why would I drive miles and miles for an inferior product?

If pot were legalized, you can bet that the large marijuana corporations would have vast standardized growing operations that could guarantee consistency of quality better than Uncle Joe who grows the shit in his closet. That's a huge factor in people's choice of product and it's a huge reason that moonshine is not a competitor for large alcohol companies (despite your imbecilic claim that it is).

Why should I bother responding to your insults? Go fuck yourself for all I care.

What insults? I said you made an imbecilic claim. Everyone else who has responded to you has essentially said the same thing. I also made some claims of my own. You could respond that they were imbecilic and provide some evidence. Or you could just tell me to go fuck myself, which really advances your factually unsubstantiated point that moonshine and reservation cigarettes are somehow good examples that a black market is alive and thriving for alcohol and tobacco.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: scott916
So for those who support legalization of all drugs, is it simply decriminalization of hard drugs or actual legalization?

Legalization, regulation, and taxation. Bring it off the black market. I acknowledge it is not a perfect solution. However the drug war costs us billions and kills thousands every year in the cross fire. At the same time huge cartels erect off the profits made via the balck market.

Mexico is in some serious shit because the cartels have become powerful enough to rival the damned govt.

How does one decide what drugs to legalize and what not to?

What makes you think you can tax the drugs and not have the black market undercut your price?

LOL regulate? How?

Is there a massive black market for alcohol or cigarettes?

What do you mean how? How do we regulate and tax other markets?

How are you going to tax pot when I can grow it myself?

Does the govt tax you when you grow your own vegetables? What a silly example.

Maybe I'll quit growing my own vegetables and concentrate on a "cash crop"? I'm sure many people would do it if pot was legal. I guess it would depend on what they could sell it for, but with cigs at $6/pack?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows



Maybe I'll quit growing my own vegetables and concentrate on a "cash crop"? I'm sure many people would do it if pot was legal. I guess it would depend on what they could sell it for, but with cigs at $6/pack?

And what if they do? Selling it for profit would require taxes be paid like any legitimate business.